tips for busting extremely tight frame bolts?

[jtopiso_imp]

Good 6-point socket and breaker bar, and apply force in small impacts instead of slowly ramping up: This makes metal creep more unlikely, so you won't round-off the nut.

A good ring spanner would be my 2nd choice. And an open end spanner my 3rd. I'd never use an adjustable for this.

If you need to hold the bolt while undoing the nut, I'd use a ring spanner on the bolt, and socket+breaker bar on the nut.

Never buy cheap tools, and -when possible- work on the nut and not the bolt.

Also, for assembly:
If you use a torque-wrench to tighten up, remember that torque is specified for clean and dry threads. If you have used WD40 or other lubricants, low friction can make you overtighten the bolt with the spec torque.

 

[misterprofessionality]

Always buy high quality tools , I have a German socket set : Kampmann , bought 55 years ago and still perfect , also like the Gedore wrenches. Low quality tools will give busted knuckles , rounded nuts and bolts and LOTS of frustration. Buy tools ONCE !

i tend to agree with Houtman on this. What few tools I do have were pretty cheap, because i bought them for another random purpose, and i just snapped two wrenches trying to turn a bolt. what does that tell you? i'm not an especially strong guy. if i can snap a metal wrench, it wasn't a very good metal. I'd rather wait a really long time and buy one tool I can afford that will be with me forever than keep re-buying a bunch of cheap stuff. That said what i can "afford" is extremely limited, so I tend to do without tools entirely. There's no helping it.

Crescent (or any other brand adjustable end wrench) have their use, such as plumbing, for which I own a 10" and 12". They would be better never (rarely?) used on motorcycle or automotive applications.

Use a box wrench or socket, whenever possible. Use an open wrench when not possible. A 6 point socket is much preferred to prevent rounding of the hex nut or bolt head.

Not having the correct tool can be costly.

When you do have a socket and breaker bar, keep CCW tension on the bar, as it will
a. reduce the chances of the socket slipping off the nut and
b. minimize the chances of the bar bouncing back at you

In the mid-ninties, my #2 son-in-law used my garage in Flagstaff to work on his VW hippy van.

He asked for help removing the axle nuts. The correct size 6 point socket, 3/4 drive breaker bar, with along pipe extension did NOTHING. He then borrowed a short (very short) brass wrench, designed for impact and smacked it with a 2# hand sledge and the nut broke loose the first try.

Excluding saws, a couple larger wrenches and hammers/mallets, all my tools fit in 4 drawers of a relatively small roll-away...not an extensive collection. When I closed Cycle Tuning Unlimited in the mid eighties, I gave away all my specialty tools.

The point is that a collection of proper tools does not need to be extensive.

Screwdrivers, good quality. Torx drivers, nut drivers, Metric hex drivers all optional. Caliper, feeler gauges, spark plug gauges, accumulate as needed.

Pliers, including long nose, diagonal cutters, wire strippers, Visegrips, and for electricians, Channellock arc joint pliers.

Sockets, hex bits (Metric & SAE), Torx bits, ratchets, extensions, breaker bars. Sockets: Start with 3/8 drive (8mm to 19mm) and add as needed.

Wrenches and L wrenches, Metric and SAE
These are what I consider very basic tools, which I keep in my truck (for insurance purposes, I keep an inventory):

Channellocks, 420
Diagonal cutters, Channellock 338
Vise Grips, Irwin 4LN 4” long nose
Screwdriver, Klein 603-4 #2 Phillips
Screwdriver, Klein 602-4DD 1/4" keystone demolition grade
3/8” extension, 10” Craftsman 44262
3/8” extension, 6” Craftsman 44261
3/8” extension, 3” Craftsman 44264
3/8” extension, 1” Craftsman 43537
3/8” sockets, SK 7mm to 19mm
3/8” Torx bits, Stanley T10-T50
3/8” Metric bits, Husky 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 mm, #2,#3 Phillips
3/8” plug socket, Husky 5/8"
3/8” ratchet, Stanley 7-85-715
10 mm ratcheting wrench, Kobalt 338397

These fit in two Klein pouches, tucked away under back seat with tow strap, jumper cables, tie downs, fastener assortment, foot pump, 8mm-19mm combo wrenches, spare fuses, multimeter, OBD2 tester.

Always buy high quality tools , I have a German socket set : Kampmann , bought 55 years ago and still perfect , also like the Gedore wrenches. Low quality tools will give busted knuckles , rounded nuts and bolts and LOTS of frustration. Buy tools ONCE !

Good point! Definitely do NOT buy cheap tools. Decent ones will pay for themselves.

If the roll-away in my garage is stolen or I need more tools than tucked away in my truck, my backup/spare tool bag has these (still limited to 19 mm):

Channellock 909 crimpers (USA)
Channellock 3017 long nose (USA)
Channellock 338 diagonal cutters (USA)
Channellock 908 multi wire stripper/crimpers (USA)

Crescent 10” adjustable end wrench (USA)
Channellock 357 end nippers (USA)
Channellock 369 linesman pliers (USA)
Channellock 430 arc groove pliers (USA)

Irwin 7R Visegrips (USA), Irwin 4LN Visegrips (USA)
Klein 604-3, #0 x 3” Phillips screwdriver (USA)
Klein 608-3, 1/8 x 3” screwdriver (USA)
Bondhus T9-T40 Torx L wrench set (USA)
Bondhus 1.5-10 mm metric L wrench set (USA)
Bondhus 0.050-3/8” fractional L wrench set (USA)

3/8 drive 1”, 3” 6” extensions, Craftsman 43537, 44264, 44261 (USA)
3/8 drive Craftsman 44373 #4 Phillips bit
Husky awl 693-239 (USA)
Klein 601-4, 3/16 x 4” screwdriver (USA)
Klein 600-4, ¼ x 4” screwdriver (USA)
Klein 603-4, #2 Phillips x 4” screwdriver (USA)
Klein 603-3, #1 Phillips x 3” screwdriver (USA)
Stanley 7-85-715 3/8 drive ratchet

Stanley 8-19 mm Metric combination wrench set/roll bag
SK Wayne 7-19 mm 3/8 drive socket set/metal tray (USA)
Stanley 16 oz ball peen hammer
Klein 603-6, #3 Phillips x 6’ screwdriver (USA)
Klein 600-6, 5/16 x 6” screwdriver (USA)
Klein 600-8, 3/8 x 8” screwdriver (USA)

For working on the CB, missing would be the larger wrenches and 1/2" drive sockets, but otherwise could do most of the work on it and then some.

I didn't really set out to use a crescent wrench for this purpose, it was just the only thing I had that was 14mm once the ratchet imploded. worked better than my fingers .

Thanks for the rundown on useful tools. the problem with that list of course is that i won't be consulting it for possible a few years, because that's how long it's going to take me to be able to set aside money prioritized for that many tools. maybe in 4-5 years when i buy a second bike meant for wrenching.

Good 6-point socket and breaker bar, and apply force in small impacts instead of slowly ramping up: This makes metal creep more unlikely, so you won't round-off the nut.

A good ring spanner would be my 2nd choice. And an open end spanner my 3rd. I'd never use an adjustable for this.

If you need to hold the bolt while undoing the nut, I'd use a ring spanner on the bolt, and socket+breaker bar on the nut.

Never buy cheap tools, and -when possible- work on the nut and not the bolt.

Also, for assembly:
If you use a torque-wrench to tighten up, remember that torque is specified for clean and dry threads. If you have used WD40 or other lubricants, low friction can make you overtighten the bolt with the spec torque.

I agree, but it's the one and only wrench left in my posession at this point. believe me I didn't set out to take an adjustable wrench to this.

otherwise, all good points echoed by the others here.

 

[KiowaEagle_imp]

Always buy high quality tools , I have a German socket set : Kampmann , bought 55 years ago and still perfect , also like the Gedore wrenches. Low quality tools will give busted knuckles , rounded nuts and bolts and LOTS of frustration. Buy tools ONCE !

I agree with some exceptions. I'm only going to use a torque wrench once or twice a year. For that I'm not going to spend a fortune.

 

[dwcurton_imp]

My thought is that Honda assembled these bolts using loc-tite. This essentially "glues" the bolt threads to the nut. When trying to remove nuts that are loc-tite installed, I generally use a socket and breaker bar (as mentioned above) with a backup wrench on the bolt. I put the breaker bar on the nut and apply light tension with my left hand, hold backup with my right hand, then with my 3rd hand strike the breaker bar sharply with a 3 lb sledge.

The sudden impact force will do a better job breaking the grip of the loc-tite than any steady tension. Don't just grab the wrench and pull as hard as you can. That way lies madness (and twisted off bolt heads).

On other applications, I've found that using an acetylene torch to heat the bolt cherry red will burn off the loc-tite and allow easy bolt removal. Depending on the location, however, this is not an ideal solution. Plan on replacing the bolts if doing this step.

Penetrating oil helps with rusty hardware, not sure it does anything at all with loc-tite.

 

[mattmcuomo@yahoo.com]

I use a “pursuader” it’s 2 feet of 2” galvanized pipe.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[baxtercat_imp]

My thought is that Honda assembled these bolts using loc-tite. This essentially "glues" the bolt threads to the nut. When trying to remove nuts that are loc-tite installed, I generally use a socket and breaker bar (as mentioned above) with a backup wrench on the bolt. I put the breaker bar on the nut and apply light tension with my left hand, hold backup with my right hand, then with my 3rd hand strike the breaker bar sharply with a 3 lb sledge.

The sudden impact force will do a better job breaking the grip of the loc-tite than any steady tension. Don't just grab the wrench and pull as hard as you can. That way lies madness (and twisted off bolt heads).

On other applications, I've found that using an acetylene torch to heat the bolt cherry red will burn off the loc-tite and allow easy bolt removal. Depending on the location, however, this is not an ideal solution. Plan on replacing the bolts if doing this step.

Penetrating oil helps with rusty hardware, not sure it does anything at all with loc-tite.

I removed the engine mount bolts on my 2013, then again on my 2017. Neither time did I see any evidence that Honda used Loc-Tite on them. They're just torqued down a lot. Good penetrating oil (like PB Blaster) will help free up tight bolts, whether they are rusted or not. I would certainly not dissuade the OP from trying it.

 

[SportsterDoc]

Always buy high quality tools , I have a German socket set : Kampmann , bought 55 years ago and still perfect , also like the Gedore wrenches. Low quality tools will give busted knuckles , rounded nuts and bolts and LOTS of frustration. Buy tools ONCE !

i tend to agree with Houtman on this. What few tools I do have were pretty cheap, because i bought them for another random purpose, and i just snapped two wrenches trying to turn a bolt. what does that tell you? i'm not an especially strong guy. if i can snap a metal wrench, it wasn't a very good metal. I'd rather wait a really long time and buy one tool I can afford that will be with me forever than keep re-buying a bunch of cheap stuff. That said what i can "afford" is extremely limited, so I tend to do without tools entirely. There's no helping it.

Crescent (or any other brand adjustable end wrench) have their use, such as plumbing, for which I own a 10" and 12". They would be better never (rarely?) used on motorcycle or automotive applications.

Use a box wrench or socket, whenever possible. Use an open wrench when not possible. A 6 point socket is much preferred to prevent rounding of the hex nut or bolt head.

Not having the correct tool can be costly.

When you do have a socket and breaker bar, keep CCW tension on the bar, as it will
a. reduce the chances of the socket slipping off the nut and
b. minimize the chances of the bar bouncing back at you

In the mid-ninties, my #2 son-in-law used my garage in Flagstaff to work on his VW hippy van.

He asked for help removing the axle nuts. The correct size 6 point socket, 3/4 drive breaker bar, with along pipe extension did NOTHING. He then borrowed a short (very short) brass wrench, designed for impact and smacked it with a 2# hand sledge and the nut broke loose the first try.

Excluding saws, a couple larger wrenches and hammers/mallets, all my tools fit in 4 drawers of a relatively small roll-away...not an extensive collection. When I closed Cycle Tuning Unlimited in the mid eighties, I gave away all my specialty tools.

The point is that a collection of proper tools does not need to be extensive.

Screwdrivers, good quality. Torx drivers, nut drivers, Metric hex drivers all optional. Caliper, feeler gauges, spark plug gauges, accumulate as needed.

Pliers, including long nose, diagonal cutters, wire strippers, Visegrips, and for electricians, Channellock arc joint pliers.

Sockets, hex bits (Metric & SAE), Torx bits, ratchets, extensions, breaker bars. Sockets: Start with 3/8 drive (8mm to 19mm) and add as needed.

Wrenches and L wrenches, Metric and SAE
These are what I consider very basic tools, which I keep in my truck (for insurance purposes, I keep an inventory):

Channellocks, 420
Diagonal cutters, Channellock 338
Vise Grips, Irwin 4LN 4” long nose
Screwdriver, Klein 603-4 #2 Phillips
Screwdriver, Klein 602-4DD 1/4" keystone demolition grade
3/8” extension, 10” Craftsman 44262
3/8” extension, 6” Craftsman 44261
3/8” extension, 3” Craftsman 44264
3/8” extension, 1” Craftsman 43537
3/8” sockets, SK 7mm to 19mm
3/8” Torx bits, Stanley T10-T50
3/8” Metric bits, Husky 4, 5, 6, 8, 10 mm, #2,#3 Phillips
3/8” plug socket, Husky 5/8"
3/8” ratchet, Stanley 7-85-715
10 mm ratcheting wrench, Kobalt 338397

These fit in two Klein pouches, tucked away under back seat with tow strap, jumper cables, tie downs, fastener assortment, foot pump, 8mm-19mm combo wrenches, spare fuses, multimeter, OBD2 tester.

Always buy high quality tools , I have a German socket set : Kampmann , bought 55 years ago and still perfect , also like the Gedore wrenches. Low quality tools will give busted knuckles , rounded nuts and bolts and LOTS of frustration. Buy tools ONCE !

Good point! Definitely do NOT buy cheap tools. Decent ones will pay for themselves.

If the roll-away in my garage is stolen or I need more tools than tucked away in my truck, my backup/spare tool bag has these (still limited to 19 mm):

Channellock 909 crimpers (USA)
Channellock 3017 long nose (USA)
Channellock 338 diagonal cutters (USA)
Channellock 908 multi wire stripper/crimpers (USA)

Crescent 10” adjustable end wrench (USA)
Channellock 357 end nippers (USA)
Channellock 369 linesman pliers (USA)
Channellock 430 arc groove pliers (USA)

Irwin 7R Visegrips (USA), Irwin 4LN Visegrips (USA)
Klein 604-3, #0 x 3” Phillips screwdriver (USA)
Klein 608-3, 1/8 x 3” screwdriver (USA)
Bondhus T9-T40 Torx L wrench set (USA)
Bondhus 1.5-10 mm metric L wrench set (USA)
Bondhus 0.050-3/8” fractional L wrench set (USA)

3/8 drive 1”, 3” 6” extensions, Craftsman 43537, 44264, 44261 (USA)
3/8 drive Craftsman 44373 #4 Phillips bit
Husky awl 693-239 (USA)
Klein 601-4, 3/16 x 4” screwdriver (USA)
Klein 600-4, ¼ x 4” screwdriver (USA)
Klein 603-4, #2 Phillips x 4” screwdriver (USA)
Klein 603-3, #1 Phillips x 3” screwdriver (USA)
Stanley 7-85-715 3/8 drive ratchet

Stanley 8-19 mm Metric combination wrench set/roll bag
SK Wayne 7-19 mm 3/8 drive socket set/metal tray (USA)
Stanley 16 oz ball peen hammer
Klein 603-6, #3 Phillips x 6’ screwdriver (USA)
Klein 600-6, 5/16 x 6” screwdriver (USA)
Klein 600-8, 3/8 x 8” screwdriver (USA)

For working on the CB, missing would be the larger wrenches and 1/2" drive sockets, but otherwise could do most of the work on it and then some.

I didn't really set out to use a crescent wrench for this purpose, it was just the only thing I had that was 14mm once the ratchet imploded. worked better than my fingers .

Thanks for the rundown on useful tools. the problem with that list of course is that i won't be consulting it for possible a few years, because that's how long it's going to take me to be able to set aside money prioritized for that many tools. maybe in 4-5 years when i buy a second bike meant for wrenching.

Good 6-point socket and breaker bar, and apply force in small impacts instead of slowly ramping up: This makes metal creep more unlikely, so you won't round-off the nut.

A good ring spanner would be my 2nd choice. And an open end spanner my 3rd. I'd never use an adjustable for this.

If you need to hold the bolt while undoing the nut, I'd use a ring spanner on the bolt, and socket+breaker bar on the nut.

Never buy cheap tools, and -when possible- work on the nut and not the bolt.

Also, for assembly:
If you use a torque-wrench to tighten up, remember that torque is specified for clean and dry threads. If you have used WD40 or other lubricants, low friction can make you overtighten the bolt with the spec torque.

I agree, but it's the one and only wrench left in my posession at this point. believe me I didn't set out to take an adjustable wrench to this.

otherwise, all good points echoed by the others here.

What is your budget?
What do you already have?

I have never broken a wrench, but have cracked a couple sockets, using standard sockets on a pneumatic impact wrench...or a very long cheater bar.

Some nuts/bolt heads may not be accessible without sockets/spanners, but considering the $, I would first focus on a decent socket set.

When using a cheater bar or mallet, a breaker bar is more durable than a ratchet.

My sockets are Craftsman (older USA), SK Wayne (quality, probably close to Houtman's), Kobalt (Lowes) and Husky (Home Depot) before the made in China years.

Since Stanley purchased Craftsman, once they are again made in the USA, I would use them or Kobalt or Husky, as they are lifetime warranty.

What brand 14 mm wrench did you break?

 

[riggies_imp]

If you want to ride to Charlotte you can borrow any tools you need for this job including the torque wrench. Also, most auto parts store will let you borrow pretty much any tool. If you wanna get it done go borrow the tools from an oreilys or advanced.

 

[Cormanus]

Good on you, riggies.

 

[misterprofessionality]

a lucky break!! One of the installers that works for my company had a powerful impact drill. he dropped by my place after work, i gave him a socket and he went ham on the bolts. they came right off, no problem then. i assembled the sliders and he even tightened them back up for me.

Thanks to riggies for the offer to use tools, but i have a policy about touching things i'm not qualified to touch and can't afford to replace.

One thing i'm wondering, now that the bolts are off, is that the original bolts have a strange crusty white residue all around them. I have no idea what it is, but it seems like a thorough coating. is this something i'm supposed to have applied to the new bolts?


for a quick reply to Sportsterdoc, my existing tools consist of some random sockets and now only one small ratchet, a few random crescent wrenches, and various other doodads i've had to buy, like an oil filter wrench, ect. all of the sockets and metal wrenches are some off-label walmart brand. they're garbage, but they're what I was willing to spend at the time ( i didn't buy them for working on motorcycles).

oh, and i forgot to mention, though it's not related too much to this post, i also have a trusty dremel, soldering iron, and i just picked up a little propane torch for an unrelated aluminum project.

 

[SportsterDoc]

Good on you, riggies.

+1
x2
ditto
amen!
MP
This could be a start on your tool collection.
Decent quality
Lifetime warranty
6 point

If not in a hurry, you might find on sale
https://www.lowes.com/pd/Kobalt-11-Piece-Metric-3-8-in-Drive-6-point-Set-Shallow-Socket-Set/3652536

 

[riggies_imp]

a mechanics tool set by craftsmen was the start to my tool collection when I was a teenager. Fixed a lot of broken machines with those tools and still a mainstay in my garage.

 

[peterbaron]

I just heard a big crack.....nut is loose, isn't it ??

 

[SportsterDoc]

a mechanics tool set by craftsmen was the start to my tool collection when I was a teenager. Fixed a lot of broken machines with those tools and still a mainstay in my garage.

Same here.
Son now has them, plus many additions.
Hopefully quality will be on the way back.

 

[Townie_imp]

I just ran up against the same wall yesterday. I bought frame sliders from another forum member, went to install them and discovered that those bolts are really on there tight! I didn’t feel like digging out my breaker bar at the moment, but I’ll do it tomorrow with confidence that it’s the right tool for the job.

I guess what I mean to say is you won’t regret owning a breaking bar if you want to spend more time wrenching. It’s practically required equipment and they’re worth their weight in gold when you need one. Consider it an investment.

The front engine mount bolts were very tight when I took them off my bike, partly due to the constant heat cycles that turn any condensation into a chalky white residue.
The 4 nuts are partly obscured by the header, but I was able to put a box end wrench in place and hit it sharply with a plastic mallet, easily breaking the nuts loose with a loud creak.
Trying to turn the bolt head is the wrong way - too much energy lost on the twisting bolt. Always turn the nut, not the bolt.

I figured the chalky white stuff was some dried up grease. Does the condensation react with the steel bolt & heat cycles to create this chalky stuff?

 

[pekingduck]

I just ran up against the same wall yesterday. I bought frame sliders from another forum member, went to install them and discovered that those bolts are really on there tight! I didn’t feel like digging out my breaker bar at the moment, but I’ll do it tomorrow with confidence that it’s the right tool for the job.

I guess what I mean to say is you won’t regret owning a breaking bar if you want to spend more time wrenching. It’s practically required equipment and they’re worth their weight in gold when you need one. Consider it an investment.

The front engine mount bolts were very tight when I took them off my bike, partly due to the constant heat cycles that turn any condensation into a chalky white residue.
The 4 nuts are partly obscured by the header, but I was able to put a box end wrench in place and hit it sharply with a plastic mallet, easily breaking the nuts loose with a loud creak.
Trying to turn the bolt head is the wrong way - too much energy lost on the twisting bolt. Always turn the nut, not the bolt.

I figured the chalky white stuff was some dried up grease. Does the condensation react with the steel bolt & heat cycles to create this chalky stuff?

I figured the chalky white stuff was some dried up grease. Does the condensation react with the steel bolt & heat cycles to create this chalky stuff? I'm not really sure of the actual chemical reaction, but only seem to see this on engine bolts and engine frame bolts. On occasion, have pulled bolts and seen the condensation moisture.

 

[jtopiso_imp]

Always buy high quality tools , I have a German socket set : Kampmann , bought 55 years ago and still perfect , also like the Gedore wrenches. Low quality tools will give busted knuckles , rounded nuts and bolts and LOTS of frustration. Buy tools ONCE !

I agree with some exceptions. I'm only going to use a torque wrench once or twice a year. For that I'm not going to spend a fortune.

With good tools, you can have an error of +/-20% in bolt tension when tightening a bolt. This is due to variations on thread friction, under-head friction, and the error of the tool itself.

With a cheap torque-wrench... I guess what you get is not much better than a "that seems tight enough" approach.

 

[KiowaEagle_imp]

In this case, with a $35 torque wrench I believe the error factor originally when it's new is similar if not the same. It is factory calibrated after all. The difference is that with usage it probably looses that calibration at a faster rate. But like I said I'm only going to use it once or twice a year. I'm 61, if I use it twice a year until I'm 75 that is only 28 uses. A mechanic could use one easily that much in a month. Plus I could buy another one in that time and still spend less and it's still better than using a standard wrench with your "that seems tight enough" idea.

 

[Cormanus]

I wonder how many mechanics use torque wrenches? I’ve had a couple look askance at me for suggesting it.

 

[dwcurton_imp]

They say you learn something new every day, so maybe today is my day. But I've been wrenching on old cars, old trucks, old bikes, old boats, and old tractors since the 70's and I've never seen "condensation" on the bolts. I'm not exactly sure what is being referred to here.

However, the frame bolts on my 2014 did have a chalky white substance on them when I removed them for installation of an engine guard. I initially thought it was some type of loc-tite material. Thinking on it some more, it was probably thread lubricant used during assembly to get a more consistent torque value. This lubricant then dried over time. From personal experience, old dried grease can be worse than glue and it probably functioned as a thread lock when dried.

Nevertheless, the technique described above worked well and I have no real issues removing them. One or two sharp raps with a 3 lb hammer on a breaker bar and they were loose.

I also second the general notion that quality tools are well worth the money.
Quote:I wonder how many mechanics use torque wrenches? I’ve had a couple look askance at me for suggesting it.
I think it's becoming more common as you see steel bolts in aluminum engine blocks. It's much better to use a torque wrench than pay to fix stripped out threads.

After much complaining, I also stand in the shop for every tire change and insist they use a torque wrench to tighten my rims to a specified value. Nothing like trying to change a flat in the rain with all the lug nuts torqued to over 120 ft-lbs by some idiot in the shop using an impact at the highest setting.

And, my son recently got hired to assemble high-end bicycles in a local shop and almost every bolt has to be torqued to a specific value due to the light weight and exotic materials.