mattmcuomo@yahoo.com
Been there
Thread starter
Curious, has anyone experienced any problems with the CB from NOT using the clutch while shifting?
Shift without clutch.... much?
- Thread starter mattmcuomo@yahoo.com
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the Ferret
Road warrior
Don't mean to be negative, but why would you do that?
kmoney_imp
Road warrior
I clutch the 1-2 and all downshifts; everything else is clutchless. I've done the same on all my bikes and I've never had a problem on any bike I've done this with, including the CB.
As for why, I find it smoother and much faster/lower effort. Some people don't and think it hurts the gearbox, I can respect that too.
** caution, this topic ranks up there with oil threads in terms of debate it inspires.
As for why, I find it smoother and much faster/lower effort. Some people don't and think it hurts the gearbox, I can respect that too.
** caution, this topic ranks up there with oil threads in terms of debate it inspires.
the Ferret
Road warrior
Don't you have to back off the throttle to make the clutchless shift? Just seems to me that in that same amount of time you could pull in and let out the clutch.
Not saying you shouldn't do it on your bike ( although if you ride mine, please don't), just tha I don't see a time savings there.
If you could shift under full power like in a GP seamless gearbox, it would make sense to me
Not saying you shouldn't do it on your bike ( although if you ride mine, please don't), just tha I don't see a time savings there.
If you could shift under full power like in a GP seamless gearbox, it would make sense to me
rboe
Road warrior
I've done it. Never on purpose. Seems pretty slick though.
kmoney_imp
Road warrior
You're right, you do have to back off, but the internal mass of the engine is so light (compared to a car anyway) and the rpm difference between gears small enough that you basically have to flinch your wrist and probably move the throttle tube a few millimeters.The ferret_imp said:
You aren't trying to cut power completely (like coming right off the gas in manual car), you're just letting the engine rpm come down enough to synchronize the speed of the two shift dogs. Most street bikes that offer clutchless up shifters just kill the ignition for a few hundred milliseconds whenever the shifter is moved up to achieve the same drop in shaft speed.
It takes some getting used to, but eventually you can shift (well, up anyway) almost like an automatic.
the Ferret
Road warrior
I'll be darned
kevbroce_imp
Been there
Clutchless upshifts after the 1-2 shift are easy while accelerating. Much tougher to do smoothly at a steady speed, it really helps to be accelerating a least some. Apply a slight pressure up on the gear lever and very quickly and very slightly close and open the throttle. Think of lightly blipping the throttle, but opposite. If your trying to get a noticeable drop in RPM's, you cutting too much throttle, you just want a really light, extremely quick reduction of thrust from the engine.
It's an easy trick, I do it all the time. If your chains getting loose its a little tougher to do smoothly, but done correctly it makes very quick and smooth shifts.
Clutchless downshifts are a little tougher, and again, a lot harder to do for the 2-1 shift. You'll be surprised how easy this is to do at low engine speeds. Try it under 2000 RPM, it's easy to do at engine speeds where you have very little engine braking. While decelerating, apply slight pressure down on the shift lever and ever so slightly, and very very quickly, blip the throttle. A you get used to doing them at low RPS with little engine speed, you can start trying them at higher RPMs. To be smooth at higher RPMs, it helps blip the throttle but not fully close it. Blip it and just slightly have the throttle open rather than fully closed, so that you are not getting the full engine baking effect.
I've always been in the habit of rev matching my downshifts. If you can do quick, smooth down shifts, practice downshifting using less and less clutch and you'll realize its not always necessary to even pull the clutch. Try it with just slightly pulling in the clutch and it'll be smother than when you try to pull the clutch completely in.
It's an easy trick, I do it all the time. If your chains getting loose its a little tougher to do smoothly, but done correctly it makes very quick and smooth shifts.
Clutchless downshifts are a little tougher, and again, a lot harder to do for the 2-1 shift. You'll be surprised how easy this is to do at low engine speeds. Try it under 2000 RPM, it's easy to do at engine speeds where you have very little engine braking. While decelerating, apply slight pressure down on the shift lever and ever so slightly, and very very quickly, blip the throttle. A you get used to doing them at low RPS with little engine speed, you can start trying them at higher RPMs. To be smooth at higher RPMs, it helps blip the throttle but not fully close it. Blip it and just slightly have the throttle open rather than fully closed, so that you are not getting the full engine baking effect.
I've always been in the habit of rev matching my downshifts. If you can do quick, smooth down shifts, practice downshifting using less and less clutch and you'll realize its not always necessary to even pull the clutch. Try it with just slightly pulling in the clutch and it'll be smother than when you try to pull the clutch completely in.
MikeOxbig_imp
Running like a top
I clutchless upshift all the time, it's super fast, smooth and seamless if done correctly. Sure, some can pull the clutch just as fast but my mentality is, why use the clutch if you don't need to, it's just one less thing to do.
And it's so addicting! Hard to explain but the feeling of the gears upshifting almost seamlessly like f1 trannies, just does it for me. Like snip-snip-snip through the gears.
It's a similar concept for bikes equipped with quickshifter, so it's safe If done correctly. Some people I know have done this with their bikes for over 100,000 miles with absolutely no issues.
And it's so addicting! Hard to explain but the feeling of the gears upshifting almost seamlessly like f1 trannies, just does it for me. Like snip-snip-snip through the gears.
It's a similar concept for bikes equipped with quickshifter, so it's safe If done correctly. Some people I know have done this with their bikes for over 100,000 miles with absolutely no issues.
Once you have cleared 1-2 clutch-less up shifts are fine and I find smoother than using a clutch. Downshifts I feel put to much pressure on the gearbox and clutch should be used. Just my opinion 
I often went 1st to 3rd to 5th while using the clutch on the CB as well as my N1K.
I often went 1st to 3rd to 5th while using the clutch on the CB as well as my N1K.
LongRanger_imp
Road warrior
I used to do it years ago, but I ride less aggressively these days and don't really see the benefit anymore. Done properly, however, I don't believe it damages anything. That being said, occasionally I'll preload the shift lever in preparation for an upshift, hit a bump, and unintentionally snick it into the next gear when I wasn't expecting to. No foul.
mattmcuomo@yahoo.com
Been there
Thread starter
I don't do it all the time. I only do when I'm accelerating quickly and I don't want to loose grip from the bars! I guess it stems from riding dirt bikes!
Sent from my C6725 using Tapatalk
Sent from my C6725 using Tapatalk
jmc1100_imp
Running like a top
Many years ago I changed my Husky 350 enduro into a motard ,different wheels and tires,I called it my frostheave special. The engine and gearbox were so smooth I caught myself upshifting without clutching, it worked great,I never repeated that on any other bike. Odd..
Pterodactyl_imp
Road warrior
I use clutchless upshifts (after2) very occasionally.
Cheers
Cheers
jazzmans_imp
Running like a top
I did on almost all my previous bikes, but I don't on the CB. part of it is due to the 'gentle' nature of the bike.
I don't on my FZ09 either, but the manual specifically states Do Not Clutchless shift.(which is interesting, first time I've seen a manual be that specific)
I don't on my FZ09 either, but the manual specifically states Do Not Clutchless shift.(which is interesting, first time I've seen a manual be that specific)
mattmcuomo@yahoo.com
Been there
Thread starter
I found it smoother even at low speeds... after 1st and 2nd.
Sent from my C6725 using Tapatalk
Sent from my C6725 using Tapatalk
the Ferret
Road warrior
I am amazed that many people do this. Just never occurred to me to even try it. I even raced motocross (pretty successfully) for 10 years and used the clutch on every shift.
Motogeezer1949_imp
Road warrior
I've gone clutchless all my life, every bike I've owned, even at the 1-2 shift. Never had a tranny or clutch or related problem and I've had plenty of bikes on which I racked up over 70k miles. There's no need to use the clutch except for starting, stopping and downshifting, AND after a while, after one learns to match revs, one can downshift in pretty near every gear with the exception the 2-1 down shift.
The motorcycle tranny is constant mesh, unlike mostly all auto/truck trannys, so it's a non-issue, a no brainer. Hurts nothing unless one is a totally inept rider.
Plus, I've never replaced a clutch cable
The motorcycle tranny is constant mesh, unlike mostly all auto/truck trannys, so it's a non-issue, a no brainer. Hurts nothing unless one is a totally inept rider.
Plus, I've never replaced a clutch cable
After 1-2 on the upshift only for me. There are, of course, caveats:
1. Pre-loading the shifter in preparation for the shift can bend the shifter forks; don't do that. I know a lot of places on the Internet prescribe this method as how to do it (and some transmissions, like that on the BMW K1600 require it or else it won't work), however, it's still bad. Don't touch the shift linkage until you're read to actually shift.
2. Shifting without the clutch WILL eventually wear out the dogs on the mating gears because you're putting much more pressure on them than would be otherwise. If your bike starts to pop out of gear after a while, this is why. Each transmission is different and how long it takes to wear the dogs down to the point that they no longer positively engage the next gear is a variable. On my CBR, I have 19k miles and have been shifting like this since new and that transmission is rock solid. The transmission on the CB1100 isn't nearly as precise, however, and I'm guessing not nearly has heavy duty as the CBR has tons more power to deal with. Which brings me to my next point:
On the CB1100, I have noticed that, on occasion, a clutchless upshift will leave the shift lever in the raised position, rendering it inoperable until negative pressure is applied via deceleration (e.g. negatively loading the transmission) to fully engage the gear, nudging the shifter fork and fully rotating the shifter drum). Because of this, I can't, in good conscience, recommend that anyone do this with their CB1100. It is my opinion that the transmission isn't built for that kind of abuse and an owner will eventually see a failure. As always, do what you will as it's your machine and pocketbook.
1. Pre-loading the shifter in preparation for the shift can bend the shifter forks; don't do that. I know a lot of places on the Internet prescribe this method as how to do it (and some transmissions, like that on the BMW K1600 require it or else it won't work), however, it's still bad. Don't touch the shift linkage until you're read to actually shift.
2. Shifting without the clutch WILL eventually wear out the dogs on the mating gears because you're putting much more pressure on them than would be otherwise. If your bike starts to pop out of gear after a while, this is why. Each transmission is different and how long it takes to wear the dogs down to the point that they no longer positively engage the next gear is a variable. On my CBR, I have 19k miles and have been shifting like this since new and that transmission is rock solid. The transmission on the CB1100 isn't nearly as precise, however, and I'm guessing not nearly has heavy duty as the CBR has tons more power to deal with. Which brings me to my next point:
On the CB1100, I have noticed that, on occasion, a clutchless upshift will leave the shift lever in the raised position, rendering it inoperable until negative pressure is applied via deceleration (e.g. negatively loading the transmission) to fully engage the gear, nudging the shifter fork and fully rotating the shifter drum). Because of this, I can't, in good conscience, recommend that anyone do this with their CB1100. It is my opinion that the transmission isn't built for that kind of abuse and an owner will eventually see a failure. As always, do what you will as it's your machine and pocketbook.
the Ferret
Road warrior
ok..trying to learn here..old dog and all
If this is common practice and won't hurt the tranny..why was it such a big deal that Yamaha didn't have a seamless tranny in MotoGP year before last (allowing clutchless shifts) while Honda did? (and Suzuki is behind because they still don't)
It was claimed clutchless shifts with the seamless gearboxes were responsible for a gain of 2/10s or 3/10ths per lap.
If this is common practice and won't hurt the tranny..why was it such a big deal that Yamaha didn't have a seamless tranny in MotoGP year before last (allowing clutchless shifts) while Honda did? (and Suzuki is behind because they still don't)
It was claimed clutchless shifts with the seamless gearboxes were responsible for a gain of 2/10s or 3/10ths per lap.
