Real world benefits of the slipper assist clutch

[SportsterDoc]

I must be old- I think the stock clutch is very light as compared to old school mechanical cable clutches..

Yep, can even pull it back to the grip with one finger.
Can even do it with little finger (bit awkward).

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

Well, on my way to costco, I went to check out that '17 EX at my dealer's showroom yesterday.
At first I couldn't find it in its former spot on the showroom. The sales mgr went freakin' hog wild and restocked the showroom like they won the lottery.... wall to wall, full of bikes and ATVs,
couldn't even walk in some places to get close to the bikes.

But I found it parked next to the parts counter.
First thing I noticed is, sticker price now says $10,400!
2nd thing....clutch pull is truly a 1 finger pull - and I can hold it in w/ my index finger for 1 min.- no probs.
I'm AMAZED at how light it is to pull that sweet hydro cluch.
This should make my gridlock crawling situations all the more better.
I'm sold, so I'm going to do it.

Wow! I'm keeping my eyes out for a '17 at a big discount.

Honda say 17 percent lighter clutch pull. It wasn't too stiff to begin with.

Are the master and slave cylinders the same part number? I wonder that the ratios could be change to deal with the lighter springs.

 

[jedd_imp]

YES the part number is identical for all yrs.

PISTON SET, MASTER CYLINDER
22886-MAT-E01

Like stated in OP, I don't have a problem w/ the stock pull, but from riding dirt and trials bikes for so many years,
I have come to appreciate doing all my clutch work using just my index finger.
One finger pull could be done on the stock one, but to hold it in for some time w/ 1 finger while waiting for the green light or for gridlock to inch its way up...that does take some effort. I'm really not trying to sell anyone on doing this. I'm just grateful that Honda came out with this on their '17, and I can buy all the parts to do this. This will only make me want to keep my '14 that much longer.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

YES the part number is identical for all yrs.

PISTON SET, MASTER CYLINDER
22886-MAT-E01

Like stated in OP, I don't have a problem w/ the stock pull, but from riding dirt and trials bikes for so many years,
I have come to appreciate doing all my clutch work using just my index finger.
One finger pull could be done on the stock one, but to hold it in for some time w/ 1 finger while waiting for the green light or for gridlock to inch its way up...that does take some effort. I'm really not trying to sell anyone on doing this. I'm just grateful that Honda came out with this on their '17, and I can buy all the parts to do this. This will only make me want to keep my '14 that much longer.

Me too. One or two. For roadwork, usually two. Quick shifting sort of demands that technique. Same with the brakes.

But the lighter clutch pull's good for any rider, and the slipper feature is actually the big benefit, for safety.

If a guy can do the work himself, for that amount of money, I'd say go for it, it's a big upgrade.

 

[upsdoc_imp]

Has anyone successfully completed this upgrade?
I attempted this project, however the new clutch center appears to be too short for the shaft. There is extra room between the nut and the clutch center. Any input is appreciated.

 

[Cormanus]

Welcome aboard upsdoc. I don't recall hearing that anyone has completed this. But I've been wrong before.

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

Pics of what you are seeing and the part #’s you used please.

I am out right now, but if you can get us that- when I get home I will double check everything for you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[upsdoc_imp]

I replaced all clutch parts (#4 to #22) except the clutch outer (#1,2 and 3), which is the same on all years.
I will reinstall the 2017 clutch parts tomorrow and take pictures.
Thanks in advance for the help.

 

[alprider]

for something you can adjust the lever.....but bcos only the pullpower extra change the clutch ..well i dooooont know........and so long you havent a healtproblem with your hand: muscle-training ?

the power from the 14 model clutchlever is not realy strong too......the hardest ever was for me that switch on an HD...my god...

 

[upsdoc_imp]

Here is a picture comparing the clutch center of the 2014 model vs the 2017.
2014 is on the left. As you can see the clutch is taller, due to the damper assembly on the 2014.
You can see the excess space on the shaft with the 2017 clutch center.

 

[peterbaron]

How much for the all parts alone??

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

Pete- last I checked, if bought from Babbits Online and using the code Eddie12 or OEM10 the parts were less than $250.

Here is the 14 & 17 chart. The crankshaft and cases are the same. I can't tell from the picture what you need to do- but at least based on all the part diagrams and #'s there is no reason whatsoever it should not work if you have the right parts in the right order.

14- https://www.babbittsonline.com/oemparts/a/hon/52f28c1cf870021404ec5a5e/clutch

17- https://www.babbittsonline.com/oemparts/a/hon/5907904087a8660d54fac366/clutch

Keep in mind the diagram reference #'s don't carry over. You need to compare actual part #s, as well as quantities on stuff like the clutch plates.

I've love to be there to help.

 

[peterbaron]

He, he, he..will not dig in my OEM '14 CB just to use one finger to apply clutch....waste of time and money....meantime I can easily clock 200 kms
**Mine is so smooth = no need for any better...
*** Smell trick from Honda, however I might be wrong:huh:
**** The bottom line for me is: even if Honda Japan wanted to install parts/labour for free, I would not need this type of improvement. I like if the life is a little bit complicated, so I have to challenge it daily, stay the course and always be on the top.

Good luck to all who want to dig in.

Josh, how is recovery progressing...when will you :biker: again???

 

[Houtman_imp]

My 2017 clutch is a little lighter to pull than my 2013 and 2014 but it is not a problem for me at all : both still very light.
The slipper part is nice when down shifting but again for me not a deal breaker.

 

[upsdoc_imp]

I have just ordered the 2017 Honda service manual.
Hoping it will me figure this out.

 

[SportsterDoc]

The real world benefits of a slipper clutch is to simply reduce initial engine braking when downshifting for deceleration. IMHO this may be beneficial for very high RPM, extremely oversquare bore motors, but see little benefit on the CB.

The principle purpose of a slipper clutch is to reduce engine braking and increase rear tire control, especially if that engine braking is done abruptly and while heavily applying the front brake.

An easier pull is a side benefit.

Canyon running with my Sportster 1200 Sport would chirp the rear tire when I got lazy (not lightly blipping the throttle) on downshifting before a turn.

A slipper clutch would reduce that, but I've not had that issue with the 2014 CB1100. Nevada does not have the canyons that I enjoyed in SoCal, but Deer Creek Road (NV highway 158 in the Spring Mountains) is a smooth run on the CB1100.

Think of a slipper clutch as partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle.

In the broadest sense, yes.

But in the specific technical aspects of performance, engine braking is something that is determined by the tuning of the ECU through fueling adjustments.

Motorcycles today, especially high-performance racing engines, can be very precisely tuned for a variety of engine braking performance parameters.

For example, a WSBK bike can be tuned to increase or reduce engine braking for every turn on the racetrack. And that braking is adjusted automatically in real time by GPS location provided by satellite tracking.

Nicky Hayden crashed once because the GPS signal failed at a critical moment and his bike didn't have the engine braking he expected.

I just bring this up because it's an important point; engine braking can only occur if the engine is actually connected to the drivetrain.

A slipper clutch disconnects the engine and drivetrain until equilibrium is restored. Experienced riders proficient at shifting will likely never have the slip feature activate. If it does activate, even for a really bad shift, it'll only be for a few milliseconds, just long enough for the RPMs to again match up.

But as the post above indicates, the slip feature can partially disengage, provide some engine braking while still preventing serious rear skid.

But to be clear, the slip feature is like an invisible hand on the clutch; its purpose is the pull in the clutch a bit if you don't.

The principle purpose of a slipper clutch is to reduce engine braking and increase rear tire control, especially if that engine braking is done abruptly and while heavily applying the front brake.

An easier pull is a side benefit.

Canyon running with my Sportster 1200 Sport would chirp the rear tire when I got lazy (not lightly blipping the throttle) on downshifting before a turn.

A slipper clutch would reduce that, but I've not had that issue with the 2014 CB1100. Nevada does not have the canyons that I enjoyed in SoCal, but Deer Creek Road (NV highway 158 in the Spring Mountains) is a smooth run on the CB1100.

Think of a slipper clutch as partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle.

That is not the case, as Henning explains in the video.

"The whole idea behind a slipper clutch is that it prevents engine over rev and rear-wheel chatter, and helps keep the rear suspension working properly during hard engine braking caused by aggressive downshifts."

A slipper clutch will never, ever activate if the throttle is merely backed off. The deceleration force is nowhere near sufficient enough to separate the clutch plates. This would be a serious control issue because the clutch would suddenly re-engage if the throttle was applied, leading to a lurch. Its design function is to limit rear skidding during a bad, mismatched downshift only.

Henning misrepresents the function of these clutches when he says "no rev-matching required". A slip-n-grip clutch by no means can seamlessly match the revs for a rider in a transparent way. It doesn't remove the responsibility for riding well from the rider. You will darn well know when the clutch is being released by that "invisible hand" and it functions more like a light switch. Certainly, the slip-n-grip is nothing like a seamless, "no-brainer" kind of feature. It's like a crude version of ABS, it'll pull in the clutch for you if you screw up. It's not an "intelligent" feature, it's mechanical, and subject to very significant hysteresis and is not anything like "predictable".

Compare with intelligent ABS systems, which can seem "seamless" and transparent. Not the same thing at all.

I emphasize this point because, just as with ABS, if a rider thinks he or she can get away with not learning to shift, and the the slip-n-grip is just gonna save his/her bacon, they're gonna be very shocked and appalled when they crash because they think the system will prevent all possible losses of control due to poor downshifting technique. Think about what happens if you suddenly pull in the clutch just after chopping the throttle in a turn.

You lose engine braking and will run wide. A huge botch in a downshift will result in just this kind of reaction from a slip-n-grip clutch until it stabilizes.

That is not the case...
Trying to understand your wording versus mine.

Yours: "the slip feature is like an invisible hand on the clutch; its purpose is the pull in the clutch a bit if you don't."

Mine: "partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle"

One is an over-running clutch and the other is manual, whether only backing off at very high RPM or actually downshifting.

 

[AzBob_imp]

The real world benefits of a slipper clutch is to simply reduce initial engine braking when downshifting for deceleration. IMHO this may be beneficial for very high RPM, extremely oversquare bore motors, but see little benefit on the CB.

The principle purpose of a slipper clutch is to reduce engine braking and increase rear tire control, especially if that engine braking is done abruptly and while heavily applying the front brake.

An easier pull is a side benefit.

Canyon running with my Sportster 1200 Sport would chirp the rear tire when I got lazy (not lightly blipping the throttle) on downshifting before a turn.

A slipper clutch would reduce that, but I've not had that issue with the 2014 CB1100. Nevada does not have the canyons that I enjoyed in SoCal, but Deer Creek Road (NV highway 158 in the Spring Mountains) is a smooth run on the CB1100.

Think of a slipper clutch as partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle.

In the broadest sense, yes.

But in the specific technical aspects of performance, engine braking is something that is determined by the tuning of the ECU through fueling adjustments.

Motorcycles today, especially high-performance racing engines, can be very precisely tuned for a variety of engine braking performance parameters.

For example, a WSBK bike can be tuned to increase or reduce engine braking for every turn on the racetrack. And that braking is adjusted automatically in real time by GPS location provided by satellite tracking.

Nicky Hayden crashed once because the GPS signal failed at a critical moment and his bike didn't have the engine braking he expected.

I just bring this up because it's an important point; engine braking can only occur if the engine is actually connected to the drivetrain.

A slipper clutch disconnects the engine and drivetrain until equilibrium is restored. Experienced riders proficient at shifting will likely never have the slip feature activate. If it does activate, even for a really bad shift, it'll only be for a few milliseconds, just long enough for the RPMs to again match up.

But as the post above indicates, the slip feature can partially disengage, provide some engine braking while still preventing serious rear skid.

But to be clear, the slip feature is like an invisible hand on the clutch; its purpose is the pull in the clutch a bit if you don't.

The principle purpose of a slipper clutch is to reduce engine braking and increase rear tire control, especially if that engine braking is done abruptly and while heavily applying the front brake.

An easier pull is a side benefit.

Canyon running with my Sportster 1200 Sport would chirp the rear tire when I got lazy (not lightly blipping the throttle) on downshifting before a turn.

A slipper clutch would reduce that, but I've not had that issue with the 2014 CB1100. Nevada does not have the canyons that I enjoyed in SoCal, but Deer Creek Road (NV highway 158 in the Spring Mountains) is a smooth run on the CB1100.

Think of a slipper clutch as partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle.

That is not the case, as Henning explains in the video.

"The whole idea behind a slipper clutch is that it prevents engine over rev and rear-wheel chatter, and helps keep the rear suspension working properly during hard engine braking caused by aggressive downshifts."

A slipper clutch will never, ever activate if the throttle is merely backed off. The deceleration force is nowhere near sufficient enough to separate the clutch plates. This would be a serious control issue because the clutch would suddenly re-engage if the throttle was applied, leading to a lurch. Its design function is to limit rear skidding during a bad, mismatched downshift only.

Henning misrepresents the function of these clutches when he says "no rev-matching required". A slip-n-grip clutch by no means can seamlessly match the revs for a rider in a transparent way. It doesn't remove the responsibility for riding well from the rider. You will darn well know when the clutch is being released by that "invisible hand" and it functions more like a light switch. Certainly, the slip-n-grip is nothing like a seamless, "no-brainer" kind of feature. It's like a crude version of ABS, it'll pull in the clutch for you if you screw up. It's not an "intelligent" feature, it's mechanical, and subject to very significant hysteresis and is not anything like "predictable".

Compare with intelligent ABS systems, which can seem "seamless" and transparent. Not the same thing at all.

I emphasize this point because, just as with ABS, if a rider thinks he or she can get away with not learning to shift, and the the slip-n-grip is just gonna save his/her bacon, they're gonna be very shocked and appalled when they crash because they think the system will prevent all possible losses of control due to poor downshifting technique. Think about what happens if you suddenly pull in the clutch just after chopping the throttle in a turn.

You lose engine braking and will run wide. A huge botch in a downshift will result in just this kind of reaction from a slip-n-grip clutch until it stabilizes.

That is not the case...
Trying to understand your wording versus mine.

Yours: "the slip feature is like an invisible hand on the clutch; its purpose is the pull in the clutch a bit if you don't."

Mine: "partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle"

One is an over-running clutch and the other is manual, whether only backing off at very high RPM or actually downshifting.

...aaaaaand stop the rear wheel from locking up when you ham-fist a downshift. (the actual real-world benefit of a slipper clutch)

The real world benefits of a slipper clutch is to simply reduce initial engine braking when downshifting for deceleration. IMHO this may be beneficial for very high RPM, extremely oversquare bore motors, but see little benefit on the CB.

The principle purpose of a slipper clutch is to reduce engine braking and increase rear tire control, especially if that engine braking is done abruptly and while heavily applying the front brake.

An easier pull is a side benefit.

Canyon running with my Sportster 1200 Sport would chirp the rear tire when I got lazy (not lightly blipping the throttle) on downshifting before a turn.

A slipper clutch would reduce that, but I've not had that issue with the 2014 CB1100. Nevada does not have the canyons that I enjoyed in SoCal, but Deer Creek Road (NV highway 158 in the Spring Mountains) is a smooth run on the CB1100.

Think of a slipper clutch as partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle.

In the broadest sense, yes.

But in the specific technical aspects of performance, engine braking is something that is determined by the tuning of the ECU through fueling adjustments.

Motorcycles today, especially high-performance racing engines, can be very precisely tuned for a variety of engine braking performance parameters.

For example, a WSBK bike can be tuned to increase or reduce engine braking for every turn on the racetrack. And that braking is adjusted automatically in real time by GPS location provided by satellite tracking.

Nicky Hayden crashed once because the GPS signal failed at a critical moment and his bike didn't have the engine braking he expected.

I just bring this up because it's an important point; engine braking can only occur if the engine is actually connected to the drivetrain.

A slipper clutch disconnects the engine and drivetrain until equilibrium is restored. Experienced riders proficient at shifting will likely never have the slip feature activate. If it does activate, even for a really bad shift, it'll only be for a few milliseconds, just long enough for the RPMs to again match up.

But as the post above indicates, the slip feature can partially disengage, provide some engine braking while still preventing serious rear skid.

But to be clear, the slip feature is like an invisible hand on the clutch; its purpose is the pull in the clutch a bit if you don't.

The principle purpose of a slipper clutch is to reduce engine braking and increase rear tire control, especially if that engine braking is done abruptly and while heavily applying the front brake.

An easier pull is a side benefit.

Canyon running with my Sportster 1200 Sport would chirp the rear tire when I got lazy (not lightly blipping the throttle) on downshifting before a turn.

A slipper clutch would reduce that, but I've not had that issue with the 2014 CB1100. Nevada does not have the canyons that I enjoyed in SoCal, but Deer Creek Road (NV highway 158 in the Spring Mountains) is a smooth run on the CB1100.

Think of a slipper clutch as partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle.

That is not the case, as Henning explains in the video.

"The whole idea behind a slipper clutch is that it prevents engine over rev and rear-wheel chatter, and helps keep the rear suspension working properly during hard engine braking caused by aggressive downshifts."

A slipper clutch will never, ever activate if the throttle is merely backed off. The deceleration force is nowhere near sufficient enough to separate the clutch plates. This would be a serious control issue because the clutch would suddenly re-engage if the throttle was applied, leading to a lurch. Its design function is to limit rear skidding during a bad, mismatched downshift only.

Henning misrepresents the function of these clutches when he says "no rev-matching required". A slip-n-grip clutch by no means can seamlessly match the revs for a rider in a transparent way. It doesn't remove the responsibility for riding well from the rider. You will darn well know when the clutch is being released by that "invisible hand" and it functions more like a light switch. Certainly, the slip-n-grip is nothing like a seamless, "no-brainer" kind of feature. It's like a crude version of ABS, it'll pull in the clutch for you if you screw up. It's not an "intelligent" feature, it's mechanical, and subject to very significant hysteresis and is not anything like "predictable".

Compare with intelligent ABS systems, which can seem "seamless" and transparent. Not the same thing at all.

I emphasize this point because, just as with ABS, if a rider thinks he or she can get away with not learning to shift, and the the slip-n-grip is just gonna save his/her bacon, they're gonna be very shocked and appalled when they crash because they think the system will prevent all possible losses of control due to poor downshifting technique. Think about what happens if you suddenly pull in the clutch just after chopping the throttle in a turn.

You lose engine braking and will run wide. A huge botch in a downshift will result in just this kind of reaction from a slip-n-grip clutch until it stabilizes.

That is not the case...
Trying to understand your wording versus mine.

Yours: "the slip feature is like an invisible hand on the clutch; its purpose is the pull in the clutch a bit if you don't."

Mine: "partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle"

One is an over-running clutch and the other is manual, whether only backing off at very high RPM or actually downshifting.

You don't need to back off the throttle for the slipper function to kick in (in fact you couldn't activate it this way if you tried), you need to down shift without matching revs. It only kicks in when the rear wheel speed is different from the engine speed, which is NEVER the case when not actually downshifting. Simply dumping the throttle from high RPM doesn't induce the slipper function.

 

[SportsterDoc]

The real world benefits of a slipper clutch is to simply reduce initial engine braking when downshifting for deceleration. IMHO this may be beneficial for very high RPM, extremely oversquare bore motors, but see little benefit on the CB.

The principle purpose of a slipper clutch is to reduce engine braking and increase rear tire control, especially if that engine braking is done abruptly and while heavily applying the front brake.

An easier pull is a side benefit.

Canyon running with my Sportster 1200 Sport would chirp the rear tire when I got lazy (not lightly blipping the throttle) on downshifting before a turn.

A slipper clutch would reduce that, but I've not had that issue with the 2014 CB1100. Nevada does not have the canyons that I enjoyed in SoCal, but Deer Creek Road (NV highway 158 in the Spring Mountains) is a smooth run on the CB1100.

Think of a slipper clutch as partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle.

In the broadest sense, yes.

But in the specific technical aspects of performance, engine braking is something that is determined by the tuning of the ECU through fueling adjustments.

Motorcycles today, especially high-performance racing engines, can be very precisely tuned for a variety of engine braking performance parameters.

For example, a WSBK bike can be tuned to increase or reduce engine braking for every turn on the racetrack. And that braking is adjusted automatically in real time by GPS location provided by satellite tracking.

Nicky Hayden crashed once because the GPS signal failed at a critical moment and his bike didn't have the engine braking he expected.

I just bring this up because it's an important point; engine braking can only occur if the engine is actually connected to the drivetrain.

A slipper clutch disconnects the engine and drivetrain until equilibrium is restored. Experienced riders proficient at shifting will likely never have the slip feature activate. If it does activate, even for a really bad shift, it'll only be for a few milliseconds, just long enough for the RPMs to again match up.

But as the post above indicates, the slip feature can partially disengage, provide some engine braking while still preventing serious rear skid.

But to be clear, the slip feature is like an invisible hand on the clutch; its purpose is the pull in the clutch a bit if you don't.

The principle purpose of a slipper clutch is to reduce engine braking and increase rear tire control, especially if that engine braking is done abruptly and while heavily applying the front brake.

An easier pull is a side benefit.

Canyon running with my Sportster 1200 Sport would chirp the rear tire when I got lazy (not lightly blipping the throttle) on downshifting before a turn.

A slipper clutch would reduce that, but I've not had that issue with the 2014 CB1100. Nevada does not have the canyons that I enjoyed in SoCal, but Deer Creek Road (NV highway 158 in the Spring Mountains) is a smooth run on the CB1100.

Think of a slipper clutch as partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle.

That is not the case, as Henning explains in the video.

"The whole idea behind a slipper clutch is that it prevents engine over rev and rear-wheel chatter, and helps keep the rear suspension working properly during hard engine braking caused by aggressive downshifts."

A slipper clutch will never, ever activate if the throttle is merely backed off. The deceleration force is nowhere near sufficient enough to separate the clutch plates. This would be a serious control issue because the clutch would suddenly re-engage if the throttle was applied, leading to a lurch. Its design function is to limit rear skidding during a bad, mismatched downshift only.

Henning misrepresents the function of these clutches when he says "no rev-matching required". A slip-n-grip clutch by no means can seamlessly match the revs for a rider in a transparent way. It doesn't remove the responsibility for riding well from the rider. You will darn well know when the clutch is being released by that "invisible hand" and it functions more like a light switch. Certainly, the slip-n-grip is nothing like a seamless, "no-brainer" kind of feature. It's like a crude version of ABS, it'll pull in the clutch for you if you screw up. It's not an "intelligent" feature, it's mechanical, and subject to very significant hysteresis and is not anything like "predictable".

Compare with intelligent ABS systems, which can seem "seamless" and transparent. Not the same thing at all.

I emphasize this point because, just as with ABS, if a rider thinks he or she can get away with not learning to shift, and the the slip-n-grip is just gonna save his/her bacon, they're gonna be very shocked and appalled when they crash because they think the system will prevent all possible losses of control due to poor downshifting technique. Think about what happens if you suddenly pull in the clutch just after chopping the throttle in a turn.

You lose engine braking and will run wide. A huge botch in a downshift will result in just this kind of reaction from a slip-n-grip clutch until it stabilizes.

That is not the case...
Trying to understand your wording versus mine.

Yours: "the slip feature is like an invisible hand on the clutch; its purpose is the pull in the clutch a bit if you don't."

Mine: "partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle"

One is an over-running clutch and the other is manual, whether only backing off at very high RPM or actually downshifting.

...aaaaaand stop the rear wheel from locking up when you ham-fist a downshift. (the actual real-world benefit of a slipper clutch)

The real world benefits of a slipper clutch is to simply reduce initial engine braking when downshifting for deceleration. IMHO this may be beneficial for very high RPM, extremely oversquare bore motors, but see little benefit on the CB.

The principle purpose of a slipper clutch is to reduce engine braking and increase rear tire control, especially if that engine braking is done abruptly and while heavily applying the front brake.

An easier pull is a side benefit.

Canyon running with my Sportster 1200 Sport would chirp the rear tire when I got lazy (not lightly blipping the throttle) on downshifting before a turn.

A slipper clutch would reduce that, but I've not had that issue with the 2014 CB1100. Nevada does not have the canyons that I enjoyed in SoCal, but Deer Creek Road (NV highway 158 in the Spring Mountains) is a smooth run on the CB1100.

Think of a slipper clutch as partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle.

In the broadest sense, yes.

But in the specific technical aspects of performance, engine braking is something that is determined by the tuning of the ECU through fueling adjustments.

Motorcycles today, especially high-performance racing engines, can be very precisely tuned for a variety of engine braking performance parameters.

For example, a WSBK bike can be tuned to increase or reduce engine braking for every turn on the racetrack. And that braking is adjusted automatically in real time by GPS location provided by satellite tracking.

Nicky Hayden crashed once because the GPS signal failed at a critical moment and his bike didn't have the engine braking he expected.

I just bring this up because it's an important point; engine braking can only occur if the engine is actually connected to the drivetrain.

A slipper clutch disconnects the engine and drivetrain until equilibrium is restored. Experienced riders proficient at shifting will likely never have the slip feature activate. If it does activate, even for a really bad shift, it'll only be for a few milliseconds, just long enough for the RPMs to again match up.

But as the post above indicates, the slip feature can partially disengage, provide some engine braking while still preventing serious rear skid.

But to be clear, the slip feature is like an invisible hand on the clutch; its purpose is the pull in the clutch a bit if you don't.

The principle purpose of a slipper clutch is to reduce engine braking and increase rear tire control, especially if that engine braking is done abruptly and while heavily applying the front brake.

An easier pull is a side benefit.

Canyon running with my Sportster 1200 Sport would chirp the rear tire when I got lazy (not lightly blipping the throttle) on downshifting before a turn.

A slipper clutch would reduce that, but I've not had that issue with the 2014 CB1100. Nevada does not have the canyons that I enjoyed in SoCal, but Deer Creek Road (NV highway 158 in the Spring Mountains) is a smooth run on the CB1100.

Think of a slipper clutch as partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle.

That is not the case, as Henning explains in the video.

"The whole idea behind a slipper clutch is that it prevents engine over rev and rear-wheel chatter, and helps keep the rear suspension working properly during hard engine braking caused by aggressive downshifts."

A slipper clutch will never, ever activate if the throttle is merely backed off. The deceleration force is nowhere near sufficient enough to separate the clutch plates. This would be a serious control issue because the clutch would suddenly re-engage if the throttle was applied, leading to a lurch. Its design function is to limit rear skidding during a bad, mismatched downshift only.

Henning misrepresents the function of these clutches when he says "no rev-matching required". A slip-n-grip clutch by no means can seamlessly match the revs for a rider in a transparent way. It doesn't remove the responsibility for riding well from the rider. You will darn well know when the clutch is being released by that "invisible hand" and it functions more like a light switch. Certainly, the slip-n-grip is nothing like a seamless, "no-brainer" kind of feature. It's like a crude version of ABS, it'll pull in the clutch for you if you screw up. It's not an "intelligent" feature, it's mechanical, and subject to very significant hysteresis and is not anything like "predictable".

Compare with intelligent ABS systems, which can seem "seamless" and transparent. Not the same thing at all.

I emphasize this point because, just as with ABS, if a rider thinks he or she can get away with not learning to shift, and the the slip-n-grip is just gonna save his/her bacon, they're gonna be very shocked and appalled when they crash because they think the system will prevent all possible losses of control due to poor downshifting technique. Think about what happens if you suddenly pull in the clutch just after chopping the throttle in a turn.

You lose engine braking and will run wide. A huge botch in a downshift will result in just this kind of reaction from a slip-n-grip clutch until it stabilizes.

That is not the case...
Trying to understand your wording versus mine.

Yours: "the slip feature is like an invisible hand on the clutch; its purpose is the pull in the clutch a bit if you don't."

Mine: "partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle"

One is an over-running clutch and the other is manual, whether only backing off at very high RPM or actually downshifting.

You don't need to back off the throttle for the slipper function to kick in (in fact you couldn't activate it this way if you tried), you need to down shift without matching revs. It only kicks in when the rear wheel speed is different from the engine speed, which is NEVER the case when not actually downshifting. Simply dumping the throttle from high RPM doesn't induce the slipper function.

...aaaaaand stop the rear wheel from locking up when you ham-fist a downshift. (the actual real-world benefit of a slipper clutch)
That is the initial engine braking unless the throttle is applied during the downshift.

My comments are a response to a difference in wording, not understanding.

The real world benefits of a slipper clutch is to simply reduce initial engine braking when downshifting for deceleration. IMHO this may be beneficial for very high RPM, extremely oversquare bore motors, but see little benefit on the CB.

The principle purpose of a slipper clutch is to reduce engine braking and increase rear tire control, especially if that engine braking is done abruptly and while heavily applying the front brake.

An easier pull is a side benefit.

Canyon running with my Sportster 1200 Sport would chirp the rear tire when I got lazy (not lightly blipping the throttle) on downshifting before a turn.

A slipper clutch would reduce that, but I've not had that issue with the 2014 CB1100. Nevada does not have the canyons that I enjoyed in SoCal, but Deer Creek Road (NV highway 158 in the Spring Mountains) is a smooth run on the CB1100.

Think of a slipper clutch as partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle.

In the broadest sense, yes.

But in the specific technical aspects of performance, engine braking is something that is determined by the tuning of the ECU through fueling adjustments.

Motorcycles today, especially high-performance racing engines, can be very precisely tuned for a variety of engine braking performance parameters.

For example, a WSBK bike can be tuned to increase or reduce engine braking for every turn on the racetrack. And that braking is adjusted automatically in real time by GPS location provided by satellite tracking.

Nicky Hayden crashed once because the GPS signal failed at a critical moment and his bike didn't have the engine braking he expected.

I just bring this up because it's an important point; engine braking can only occur if the engine is actually connected to the drivetrain.

A slipper clutch disconnects the engine and drivetrain until equilibrium is restored. Experienced riders proficient at shifting will likely never have the slip feature activate. If it does activate, even for a really bad shift, it'll only be for a few milliseconds, just long enough for the RPMs to again match up.

But as the post above indicates, the slip feature can partially disengage, provide some engine braking while still preventing serious rear skid.

But to be clear, the slip feature is like an invisible hand on the clutch; its purpose is the pull in the clutch a bit if you don't.

The principle purpose of a slipper clutch is to reduce engine braking and increase rear tire control, especially if that engine braking is done abruptly and while heavily applying the front brake.

An easier pull is a side benefit.

Canyon running with my Sportster 1200 Sport would chirp the rear tire when I got lazy (not lightly blipping the throttle) on downshifting before a turn.

A slipper clutch would reduce that, but I've not had that issue with the 2014 CB1100. Nevada does not have the canyons that I enjoyed in SoCal, but Deer Creek Road (NV highway 158 in the Spring Mountains) is a smooth run on the CB1100.

Think of a slipper clutch as partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle.

That is not the case, as Henning explains in the video.

"The whole idea behind a slipper clutch is that it prevents engine over rev and rear-wheel chatter, and helps keep the rear suspension working properly during hard engine braking caused by aggressive downshifts."

A slipper clutch will never, ever activate if the throttle is merely backed off. The deceleration force is nowhere near sufficient enough to separate the clutch plates. This would be a serious control issue because the clutch would suddenly re-engage if the throttle was applied, leading to a lurch. Its design function is to limit rear skidding during a bad, mismatched downshift only.

Henning misrepresents the function of these clutches when he says "no rev-matching required". A slip-n-grip clutch by no means can seamlessly match the revs for a rider in a transparent way. It doesn't remove the responsibility for riding well from the rider. You will darn well know when the clutch is being released by that "invisible hand" and it functions more like a light switch. Certainly, the slip-n-grip is nothing like a seamless, "no-brainer" kind of feature. It's like a crude version of ABS, it'll pull in the clutch for you if you screw up. It's not an "intelligent" feature, it's mechanical, and subject to very significant hysteresis and is not anything like "predictable".

Compare with intelligent ABS systems, which can seem "seamless" and transparent. Not the same thing at all.

I emphasize this point because, just as with ABS, if a rider thinks he or she can get away with not learning to shift, and the the slip-n-grip is just gonna save his/her bacon, they're gonna be very shocked and appalled when they crash because they think the system will prevent all possible losses of control due to poor downshifting technique. Think about what happens if you suddenly pull in the clutch just after chopping the throttle in a turn.

You lose engine braking and will run wide. A huge botch in a downshift will result in just this kind of reaction from a slip-n-grip clutch until it stabilizes.

That is not the case...
Trying to understand your wording versus mine.

Yours: "the slip feature is like an invisible hand on the clutch; its purpose is the pull in the clutch a bit if you don't."

Mine: "partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle"

One is an over-running clutch and the other is manual, whether only backing off at very high RPM or actually downshifting.

...aaaaaand stop the rear wheel from locking up when you ham-fist a downshift. (the actual real-world benefit of a slipper clutch)

The real world benefits of a slipper clutch is to simply reduce initial engine braking when downshifting for deceleration. IMHO this may be beneficial for very high RPM, extremely oversquare bore motors, but see little benefit on the CB.

The principle purpose of a slipper clutch is to reduce engine braking and increase rear tire control, especially if that engine braking is done abruptly and while heavily applying the front brake.

An easier pull is a side benefit.

Canyon running with my Sportster 1200 Sport would chirp the rear tire when I got lazy (not lightly blipping the throttle) on downshifting before a turn.

A slipper clutch would reduce that, but I've not had that issue with the 2014 CB1100. Nevada does not have the canyons that I enjoyed in SoCal, but Deer Creek Road (NV highway 158 in the Spring Mountains) is a smooth run on the CB1100.

Think of a slipper clutch as partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle.

In the broadest sense, yes.

But in the specific technical aspects of performance, engine braking is something that is determined by the tuning of the ECU through fueling adjustments.

Motorcycles today, especially high-performance racing engines, can be very precisely tuned for a variety of engine braking performance parameters.

For example, a WSBK bike can be tuned to increase or reduce engine braking for every turn on the racetrack. And that braking is adjusted automatically in real time by GPS location provided by satellite tracking.

Nicky Hayden crashed once because the GPS signal failed at a critical moment and his bike didn't have the engine braking he expected.

I just bring this up because it's an important point; engine braking can only occur if the engine is actually connected to the drivetrain.

A slipper clutch disconnects the engine and drivetrain until equilibrium is restored. Experienced riders proficient at shifting will likely never have the slip feature activate. If it does activate, even for a really bad shift, it'll only be for a few milliseconds, just long enough for the RPMs to again match up.

But as the post above indicates, the slip feature can partially disengage, provide some engine braking while still preventing serious rear skid.

But to be clear, the slip feature is like an invisible hand on the clutch; its purpose is the pull in the clutch a bit if you don't.

The principle purpose of a slipper clutch is to reduce engine braking and increase rear tire control, especially if that engine braking is done abruptly and while heavily applying the front brake.

An easier pull is a side benefit.

Canyon running with my Sportster 1200 Sport would chirp the rear tire when I got lazy (not lightly blipping the throttle) on downshifting before a turn.

A slipper clutch would reduce that, but I've not had that issue with the 2014 CB1100. Nevada does not have the canyons that I enjoyed in SoCal, but Deer Creek Road (NV highway 158 in the Spring Mountains) is a smooth run on the CB1100.

Think of a slipper clutch as partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle.

That is not the case, as Henning explains in the video.

"The whole idea behind a slipper clutch is that it prevents engine over rev and rear-wheel chatter, and helps keep the rear suspension working properly during hard engine braking caused by aggressive downshifts."

A slipper clutch will never, ever activate if the throttle is merely backed off. The deceleration force is nowhere near sufficient enough to separate the clutch plates. This would be a serious control issue because the clutch would suddenly re-engage if the throttle was applied, leading to a lurch. Its design function is to limit rear skidding during a bad, mismatched downshift only.

Henning misrepresents the function of these clutches when he says "no rev-matching required". A slip-n-grip clutch by no means can seamlessly match the revs for a rider in a transparent way. It doesn't remove the responsibility for riding well from the rider. You will darn well know when the clutch is being released by that "invisible hand" and it functions more like a light switch. Certainly, the slip-n-grip is nothing like a seamless, "no-brainer" kind of feature. It's like a crude version of ABS, it'll pull in the clutch for you if you screw up. It's not an "intelligent" feature, it's mechanical, and subject to very significant hysteresis and is not anything like "predictable".

Compare with intelligent ABS systems, which can seem "seamless" and transparent. Not the same thing at all.

I emphasize this point because, just as with ABS, if a rider thinks he or she can get away with not learning to shift, and the the slip-n-grip is just gonna save his/her bacon, they're gonna be very shocked and appalled when they crash because they think the system will prevent all possible losses of control due to poor downshifting technique. Think about what happens if you suddenly pull in the clutch just after chopping the throttle in a turn.

You lose engine braking and will run wide. A huge botch in a downshift will result in just this kind of reaction from a slip-n-grip clutch until it stabilizes.

That is not the case...
Trying to understand your wording versus mine.

Yours: "the slip feature is like an invisible hand on the clutch; its purpose is the pull in the clutch a bit if you don't."

Mine: "partially pulling the clutch lever when abruptly backing off the throttle"

One is an over-running clutch and the other is manual, whether only backing off at very high RPM or actually downshifting.

You don't need to back off the throttle for the slipper function to kick in (in fact you couldn't activate it this way if you tried), you need to down shift without matching revs. It only kicks in when the rear wheel speed is different from the engine speed, which is NEVER the case when not actually downshifting. Simply dumping the throttle from high RPM doesn't induce the slipper function.

You don't need to back off the throttle for the slipper function to kick in (in fact you couldn't activate it this way if you tried), you need to down shift without matching revs. It only kicks in when the rear wheel speed is different from the engine speed, which is NEVER the case when not actually downshifting. Simply dumping the throttle from high RPM doesn't induce the slipper function.
A better explanation...sometimes I try too hard to keep things brief.
I do understand overrunniing clutches.
I was a Formsprag distributor in the mid eighties.
Home

The point I was attempting was that if one is not prone to lazy downshifts, there is little benefit.

I will admit that when I did a lot of canyon riding, circa 2005, in SoCal on my 2002 Sportster 1200 Sport, tire wear increased as the day got longer (typical 250 mile rides...from progressively lazier downshifts...more than from acceleration. It also increased primary chain adjustments!

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

The rotational mass is lighter as well.

Unsure of how much, but never a bad thing.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[DBM_imp]

"The whole idea behind a slipper clutch is that it prevents engine over rev and rear-wheel chatter, and helps keep the rear suspension working properly during hard engine braking caused by aggressive downshifts."

If your skills are dialed, and you don't make early/aggressive downshifting mistakes, then why would you need a slipper clutch?