Perilously brief hazard run time

[Cone Man_imp]

I've had my 2017 since August and it/I just stranded me/myself for the second time with a blown out battery. Both times were triggered by using the hazards for mere minutes. Eliminating some of the cycles of testing... my most recent pass was to skip bringing it back with the Battery Tender Jr, on which it lives full time when not in use, and get the "good smart charger" have at it all day yesterday and it said everything was "fine" including a 12 hr voltage retention test it passed. Rested it for 8 hr...

Got up today... ran the battery tester on it... declared perfect. Installed it.. started... alternator was throwing perfect juice. I got the EFI fault indicator but after the first battery failure I found that disappeared after a short ride... just has to rebuild the fuel map I guess.

Now I'm used to my two KZ1000P's and their Aurora Borealis of lights on them running FOREVER on a not dissimilarly sized battery. LED emergency (cop) lights... incandescent everything else. This bike won't bust thru 11 min. Call it on the 99% done at 10.5. I'm certain the blinkers on this are incandescent dual filament because the illumination ramps up and down slowly so I'm starting to think it's those things. Maybe this is all you get from an AGM into 8 incandescent filaments plus whatever else is sucking electrons when you have the key off but the hazards on. I royally hate "clever" because it's statistically so rarely executed by people who actually are clever.

Ok... took a break and looked into that part... it seems on mine at least it's an 1157 bulb (not perfect confidence in that yet). For a Phillips 1157, that's 27 + 8.3W or 35.3 for both or 141.2W for all four. 141.2/12V = 11.8A and probably higher as the battery voltage falls and the light isn't as hot/resistive. So.. it's an 11.8 A-H battery.. putting the calculator away.. Computed over a super favorable (to the battery) 20 hr window I notice.... i.e 0.6A.... so less to way less over a much shorter discharge period due to increased internal heating... So, new, that 11.8A will last (ideally) 1 hr but when you factor in not new and non-ideal (heating and some chemistry decay), I'm not in shock that I barely make 10 min and more like 5-6 if I want the thing to actually start when I turn them off. So... really... bad design (35yr getting on to planes 2-4 times/week to go fix other companies' designs). They put in a too small battery and then after installing an LED headlight, they put in incandescent bulbs that can each double as a toaster.

Calling this mystery solved... I should see if the computer in the bike will allow LED's into it's presence without screwing with some other thing inside. Has anyone installed LEDs into your turn indicators and if so, did you have to mess with anything at the blinker control end to make it work right? Thanks in advance.

For now, I'm going to buy me a portable jump source and keep that on the bike and commit to the universe if I ever run into a "designer" who decided to design out the kick starter on any bike, street or dirt, to get arrested for what I do to him.

CM

 

[Cormanus]

Interesting post, CM. I think I understood some of it. Don't do anything that will stop you riding your CB. I suspect you'll regret it.
http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=14897&pid=252370#pid252370

 

[Chuckk_imp]

I installed LED's in my hard bags and left the fronts alone.. it changes the pulse rate of them, but I don't mind.. I then added a beeper to remind me to turn off my directionals when finished with my turn.. one video shows the pulse rate of my directional and the other is my flashers.. both are after my install ..

.

.

there are some type of load resistors they sell to keep the pulses at the stock rate, but that might draw the juice you are trying to save.. I bought two on eBay, but never used them.. the fluctuation you see on the tail light comes from the install of my beeper.. when I activate one of my brakes, the beeper silences itself, but the directional is still operating.. then when I release the brake , the beeper will sound again, until I cancel my directional .. don't ask me why the LED's flash at different rates.. maybe the load of all four bulbs flashing at the same time..

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

It might be possible that the retro-fitted LEDs don't draw enough current for the blinker to operate properly, and hence, some added resistors are suggested (in parallel?) to draw a bit more - albeit wasteful - load.

- - -

This may be similar to using household dimmable LEDs on some older dimmer wall switches: The LEDs flutter at low and "off" light levels. The way to solve that problem is to put in parallel an incandescent low watt bulb. The LED bulbs drew too little current for some dimmers to properly detect a load.

This same problem can be experienced when dimming/turning off a 120VAC string of LED Christmas lights. The way to solve the problem is to add in parallel a low watt bulb (e.g. 4 or 7W) and the controller can properly sense the load.

 

[Cone Man_imp]

Interesting post, CM. I think I understood some of it. Don't do anything that will stop you riding your CB. I suspect you'll regret it.
http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=14897&pid=252370#pid252370

Thanks Cormanus and especially for that link my prior search did not find. The key word is series resistor, i.e. more current limiting --> less power still... I had just assumed parallel... I really am not working that thing mounted on my shoulders like I used to. Screw getting old

And yea... I bought the CB to keep me and my rifle out of the nearest tower since I had 5 dead motorcycles in my garage I had ridden into the ground and the insanity was soaring. Not riding would absolutely dial up the regret!

I installed LED's in my hard bags and left the fronts alone.. it changes the pulse rate of them, but I don't mind.. I then added a beeper to remind me to turn off my directionals when finished with my turn.. one video shows the pulse rate of my directional and the other is my flashers.. both are after my install ..

.

.

there are some type of load resistors they sell to keep the pulses at the stock rate, but that might draw the juice you are trying to save.. I bought two on eBay, but never used them.. the fluctuation you see on the tail light comes from the install of my beeper.. when I activate one of my brakes, the beeper silences itself, but the directional is still operating.. then when I release the brake , the beeper will sound again, until I cancel my directional .. don't ask me why the LED's flash at different rates.. maybe the load of all four bulbs flashing at the same time..

Thank you for your reply Chuckk.. Nice bags BTW. The rep rate of the hazards would work for me but I would want to slow down the blinker rate but good news in that linked comment from Cormanus that it's a series resistor. Neat solution to not leaving your blinker on forever too. My two KZP's (1982 design built in 1998) have self-cancelling blinkers.. don't think I ever got curious enough to see how that worked but I think the speedo sensor is involved. The ABS sensor could certainly have been involved on the CB.

CM

 

[Chuckk_imp]

these were the resistors I ordered, but never installed..https://www.ebay.com/itm/LOAD-RESISTORS-LED-Turn-Signal-Motorcycle-Harley-Blinker-XL-Lights-Flash-Fix-FX/233200739968?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

 

[Cone Man_imp]

It might be possible that the retro-fitted LEDs don't draw enough current for the blinker to operate properly, and hence, some added resistors are suggested (in parallel?) to draw a bit more - albeit wasteful - load.

- - -

This may be similar to using household dimmable LEDs on some older dimmer wall switches: The LEDs flutter at low and "off" light levels. The way to solve that problem is to put in parallel an incandescent low watt bulb. The LED bulbs drew too little current for some dimmers to properly detect a load.

This same problem can be experienced when dimming/turning off a 120VAC string of LED Christmas lights. The way to solve the problem is to add in parallel a low watt bulb (e.g. 4 or 7W) and the controller can properly sense the load.

Thanks GoldOxide. Appreciate it. I agree parallel would blow up the advantage of the conversion but it might be serial. If it's the old dumb RC circuit used for years (which worked swimmingly BTW) I think you would need parallel. If it's something done under the control of the computer running the system, hopefully not... it's not just a dumb RC discharge but a computed interval. I'll be digging into that a little more and seeing what I come up with. Very nice analogies BTW on the household LED applications. Thank you again.

CM

 

[Chuckk_imp]

LOAD RESISTORS LED Turn Signal Motorcycle FOR Harley Blinker XL Lights Flash Fix
LOAD RESISTORS LED Turn Signal Motorcycle FOR Harley Blinker XL Lights Flash Fix
$7.99or Best Offer
LOAD RESISTORS LED Turn Signal Motorcycle FOR Harley Blinker XL Lights Flash Fix
0 results. You may also like

 

[Cone Man_imp]

these were the resistors I ordered, but never installed..https://www.ebay.com/itm/LOAD-RESISTORS-LED-Turn-Signal-Motorcycle-Harley-Blinker-XL-Lights-Flash-Fix-FX/233200739968?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m2749.l2649

Thanks Chuckk... their description sounds like a parallel connection and it sounds like it eats amps too as it notes "gets hot". Honda could have made this so easy...

CP

 

[SportsterDoc]

On a turn signal system based upon load, rather than time, a 6 ohm resistor (rated for 50 watts) is necessary to replace the load of two 27 watt (2.1 amp) incandescent elements on each side. If that is done, there is no battery load savings using LED.

I ran LED for brake/Tail (for longevity) but not for turns on the CB1100.

2 of the 4 can be replaced and still flash, but it will be a hyper flash.

 

[postoak_imp]

I don't really understand all this but shouldn't you hook an amp meter to the battery to confirm the figures you calculated when you turn the hazards on before you do anything else?

Anyway, I'm more interested in the fact you live in Greenland and use your CB1100 as a police motorcycle.

 

[Chuckk_imp]

I am not too sharp on electronics, but I can follow most of your calculations..are you calculating the momentary spikes of power usage .. like on the flashers, is it 50/50 .. 50% battery draw, then 50% rest ? maybe you have that figured in there somewhere and I just didn't see it.. do you have any pics of your bike? does it have bags and rear box? how about a reserve battery balanced by installing it in the top box.. it will raise the center of gravity a little , but may be another solution.. when I had my boat, I always had a dedicated battery for starting the engine.. it was always a bear to try and push start it !! .. haha ..

 

[Cone Man_imp]

On a turn signal system based upon load, rather than time, a 6 ohm resistor (rated for 50 watts) is necessary to replace the load of two 27 watt (2.1 amp) incandescent elements on each side. If that is done, there is no battery load savings using LED.

I ran LED for brake/Tail (for longevity) but not for turns on the CB1100.

2 of the 4 can be replaced and still flash, but it will be a hyper flash.

Thank you SportsterDoc... sounds like you've dug into the details and know what you're talking about from experience. I can't solve this at the load end by buying a bulb and just sticking it in there. Maybe I'll go to the other end of the circuit and see if there's something easy I can do there... add the brains to the control end Honda should have in the first place. Thanks.. and it sounds like my estimate that my rears were using both filaments was off too but I'll drag my daughter into the blame for that... looked like it to both of us

Thank you again.

CM

I don't really understand all this but shouldn't you hook an amp meter to the battery to confirm the figures you calculated when you turn the hazards on before you do anything else?

Anyway, I'm more interested in the fact you live in Greenland and use your CB1100 as a police motorcycle.

Hi Postoak... Thanks for that suggestion... they were too simple to worry about verifying. Famous last words but if I'm off, I'm sure I'm still within a factor of two which wouldn't change the big picture. I did measure the run time of the hazards and it's within a reasonable distance from the computations. I got about 50 things on my MUST BE FIXED list and no time to chase accuracy

I have two police motorcycles (KZP's) I use to work various skills and ended up helping with training. The CB is in my garage because it works.. I just needed something that hadn't been ridden to pieces. But while I'm a semi-passable rider, I would have to say my abilities in geographical matters are drastically less

CM

I am not too sharp on electronics, but I can follow most of your calculations..are you calculating the momentary spikes of power usage .. like on the flashers, is it 50/50 .. 50% battery draw, then 50% rest ? maybe you have that figured in there somewhere and I just didn't see it.. do you have any pics of your bike? does it have bags and rear box? how about a reserve battery balanced by installing it in the top box.. it will raise the center of gravity a little , but may be another solution.. when I had my boat, I always had a dedicated battery for starting the engine.. it was always a bear to try and push start it !! .. haha ..

I didn't factor that in Chuckk... excellent catch. Adding another battery will get me ~20 min run time to a no-start end The designer in me is pissed off this got out the door at Honda... I think too much of them to just say "no problem... I'm sure they tried". They phoned this part in. I can see how this will create danger for some people where it was just too easy to have avoided. I started , and got some ways into, writing a book on bad technical decision-making once and there was a chapter called Excusable vs Inexcusable Stupidity. I'll leave this at that. My blowing the duty cycle modifier... inexcusable if you knew what I used to do Ditto, Honda. Thanks for catching it.

CM