Open Face Crash

[Gustav_imp]

A lot of truth Is in your post, Ferret - I go with you. I believe I am a sure driver, but I always believe in God .

Regatds
Gustav



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[Aussie_imp]

I attended a crash last year. Guy came off a motor scooter in the city taking a corner at about 25kph. Open face helmet, slow speed minor accident. He broke his jaw and it wasn't pretty. No other injuries either apart from his face. Now imagine coming off at 50 or 60 kph. I've come off and rolled a few times and my helmet was scuffed up everywhere, especially around the face. I'm not the overly cautious type but its the full face for me.


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[CA200_imp]

What a great thread. Like many here I wear a full face all the time.
A good part of my retail life of 25 years was selling helmets.
A lot of time you spend selling you have to bite your tongue because
as many have said people can decide their own risk factor .
When you sell helmets you have a lot of info and you see a lot more
out come from crashes. - A few stories -
The couple who went from a Gold wing to a HD and decided they did not need helmets, - He lost his balance at a stop sign, she fell off hit
her head on the pavement and died from head trama.
The local BMW club pres. got hit from behind by a 18 wheeler at speed ( yes he had hi vis and all those extra brake lights) in full gear and walked out of the hospital 2 hours later. You had to look hard
to tell it was a motorcycle he was on from the pictures.
I know these are far fetched but I could go on and on. Every year
we lost customers, most with out helmets. I could go on and on.
For me I like a full face. Last crash was face first. I think you can
ride longer with out that blast of air ,dirt , bugs etc. Don't care for the
flip up helmets. Noisy and have seen these fail and cause some bad
injuries. Used to wear open face back in the 60s. I did fall on my
face back then but that is another story.
I think I might consider a open face again if I get a scooter again.
But then again when it rains or it's cold I want my full face.
( it never gets hot up here)
I wear a Shoei Qwest

 

[DAC]

What a great thread. Like many here I wear a full face all the time.
A good part of my retail life of 25 years was selling helmets.
A lot of time you spend selling you have to bite your tongue because
as many have said people can decide their own risk factor .
When you sell helmets you have a lot of info and you see a lot more
out come from crashes. - A few stories -
The couple who went from a Gold wing to a HD and decided they did not need helmets, - He lost his balance at a stop sign, she fell off hit
her head on the pavement and died from head trama.
The local BMW club pres. got hit from behind by a 18 wheeler at speed ( yes he had hi vis and all those extra brake lights) in full gear and walked out of the hospital 2 hours later. You had to look hard
to tell it was a motorcycle he was on from the pictures.
I know these are far fetched but I could go on and on. Every year
we lost customers, most with out helmets. I could go on and on.
For me I like a full face. Last crash was face first. I think you can
ride longer with out that blast of air ,dirt , bugs etc. Don't care for the
flip up helmets. Noisy and have seen these fail and cause some bad
injuries. Used to wear open face back in the 60s. I did fall on my
face back then but that is another story.
I think I might consider a open face again if I get a scooter again.
But then again when it rains or it's cold I want my full face.
( it never gets hot up here)
I wear a Shoei Qwest

That's a nice lid.

 

[grover_imp]

I live in Texas and frequently ride in 100+ degrees F and 60%+ humidity. I primarily wear a full face helmet but on occasion I'll wear a Licks Cycles 3/4 helmet with either a face shield or goggles, primarily just for short jaunts around town. I've been on the highway with it, but the whistling and lift experienced make it pretty uncomfortable for more than 10 or so minutes.


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[AzBob_imp]

You know I could buy into all the guys saying dress for the crash, not for the ride, but it seems to me that if one were REALLY, and I mean really, interested in being safe, all the ATGATT guys would be wearing more Hi Viz..jackets, helmets etc, and although I am seeing more of it these days, very few are giving up their black or bike matching colored jackets and helmets for Hi Viz.

Isn't it better to try and avoid the crash in the first place than to just wear gear to help in case of?

Isn't the number one excuse for drivers pulling out in front of motorcyclists the old "I didn't see him" line?

On my recent tour out west I wore a high viz vest over top of my regular gear 100% the time. I was in strange areas, looking for hidden roads, with unfamiliar traffic patterns. I wanted people to see me. I also had extra reflective stickers on my helmet and bike ( seems many on this forum immediately remove the side reflectors on their bikes). I saw lots of bikes on our trip out west. Jim's jacket and my vest were the only Hi Viz gear I saw,



I can tell you from working 25 years in the highway traffic safety field, that Hi Viz is the most important thing you can wear if you want to be seen on the highway. Without question, the greatest thing you can wear from a safety stand point.

So, many of you safety first guys, what is your excuse for not wearing Hi Viz gear?

My helmet is mostly white, and my leather jacket is white. Doesn't exactly match either of my two red bikes.

As for hi-viz, while it certainly can't hurt, no evidence exists that I'm aware of that says it increases visibility of motorcyclists. If someone can't see my highbeam from the front, they're unlikely to see the hi-viz vest, which pales in comparison. From the side, the vest is non-existent. Perhaps from the back it could help, and also at night. Also, if you're on a proper ST bike with a high-viz vest and a white helmet, you start looking like the popo, which can be good.

 

[Elipten_imp]

I wear Hi-Viz jacket and helmet. Wish the bike was Hi-Viz. Maybe next time it needs a paint job. Anything to get a leg up on the cagers.


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[pechorin75_imp]

You know I could buy into all the guys saying dress for the crash, not for the ride, but it seems to me that if one were REALLY, and I mean really, interested in being safe, all the ATGATT guys would be wearing more Hi Viz..jackets, helmets etc, and although I am seeing more of it these days, very few are giving up their black or bike matching colored jackets and helmets for Hi Viz.

Isn't it better to try and avoid the crash in the first place than to just wear gear to help in case of?

Isn't the number one excuse for drivers pulling out in front of motorcyclists the old "I didn't see him" line?

On my recent tour out west I wore a high viz vest over top of my regular gear 100% the time. I was in strange areas, looking for hidden roads, with unfamiliar traffic patterns. I wanted people to see me. I also had extra reflective stickers on my helmet and bike ( seems many on this forum immediately remove the side reflectors on their bikes). I saw lots of bikes on our trip out west. Jim's jacket and my vest were the only Hi Viz gear I saw,



I can tell you from working 25 years in the highway traffic safety field, that Hi Viz is the most important thing you can wear if you want to be seen on the highway. Without question, the greatest thing you can wear from a safety stand point.

So, many of you safety first guys, what is your excuse for not wearing Hi Viz gear?

My helmet is mostly white, and my leather jacket is white. Doesn't exactly match either of my two red bikes.

As for hi-viz, while it certainly can't hurt, no evidence exists that I'm aware of that says it increases visibility of motorcyclists. If someone can't see my highbeam from the front, they're unlikely to see the hi-viz vest, which pales in comparison. From the side, the vest is non-existent. Perhaps from the back it could help, and also at night. Also, if you're on a proper ST bike with a high-viz vest and a white helmet, you start looking like the popo, which can be good.

This New Zealand study reached some interesting conclusions about hi-viz and accident stats: [url=http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7444/857]http://www.bmj.com/content/328/7444/857

Nothing scientific, but I've always felt like cars give me a wider berth when I'm wearing hi-viz. And again, just me personally, but somebody wearing a hi-viz jacket sticks out like a sore thumb against almost any background. I find it's almost hard NOT to look at them.

Plus hi-viz works regardless of the direction from which you're being observed, unlike high-beams or flashing taillights. (I don't know about you guys, but when I use high beam during the day, quite a few cars flash me.)

 

[the Ferret]

Discussing...not preaching!

I know you wont see a highway worker standing in the road NOT wearing HI Viz protective gear.

I know when I am out riding and see another rider wearing HI Viz he sticks out like a sore thumb, and is easily visible amongst his surroundings.

This Is Why High-Visibility Motorcycle Clothing is Vital

To me it is like a helmet, another tool to help protect me. I'm not going to depend on Hi Viz to save my life. I don't trust people to see me when I am wearing it, but I certainly hope they do. I'm not depending on the helmet either. I'm hoping both help if I get in a situation where I need them.

Sobering fact: From 1968 to 1978 we had a mandatory helmet law here in Ohio. Every motorcyclist killed during that 10 year period was wearing a helmet. The Bell Star full face helmet was introduced in 1968 (not trying to make a connection there, just saying full faces were available and very popular. We sold a ton of them..I often wore one). I am not anti helmet. I wear one every time I throw a leg over a motorcycle. I just worry when I hear people say " I am safe because I wear a full face helmet". Well, not necessarily. You have upped your odds, but you are certainly not SAFE yet.

The best advice I have is not to trust any piece of equipment to save your life..not Hi Viz clothing, nor full face helmet, nor ABS brakes. It takes much more than that to survive.

Save your own life by not putting yourself in situations that could take it.

As far as stories go, there was a guy killed last summer not 3 miles from my house. The guy was all geared up, as he should have been, full face helmet, armored jacket, gloves, boots. Unfortunately he was riding too fast, failed to negotiate a right hand curve and hit a truck head on. Sometimes all the protective gear in the world can't overcome circumstances and fate.

 

[ThomWill_imp]

Discussing...not preaching!

I know you wont see a highway worker standing in the road NOT wearing HI Viz protective gear.

I know when I am out riding and see another rider wearing HI Viz he sticks out like a sore thumb, and is easily visible amongst his surroundings.

This Is Why High-Visibility Motorcycle Clothing is Vital

To me it is like a helmet, another tool to help protect me. I'm not going to depend on Hi Viz to save my life. I don't trust people to see me when I am wearing it, but I certainly hope they do. I'm not depending on the helmet either. I'm hoping both help if I get in a situation where I need them.

Sobering fact: From 1968 to 1978 we had a mandatory helmet law here in Ohio. Every motorcyclist killed during that 10 year period was wearing a helmet. The Bell Star full face helmet was introduced in 1968 (not trying to make a connection there, just saying full faces were available and very popular. We sold a ton of them..I often wore one). I am not anti helmet. I wear one every time I throw a leg over a motorcycle. I just worry when I hear people say " I am safe because I wear a full face helmet". Well, not necessarily. You have upped your odds, but you are certainly not SAFE yet.

The best advice I have is not to trust any piece of equipment to save your life..not Hi Viz clothing, nor full face helmet, nor ABS brakes. It takes much more than that to survive.

Save your own life by not putting yourself in situations that could take it.

As far as stories go, there was a guy killed last summer not 3 miles from my house. The guy was all geared up, as he should have been, full face helmet, armored jacket, gloves, boots. Unfortunately he was riding too fast, failed to negotiate a right hand curve and hit a truck head on. Sometimes all the protective gear in the world can't overcome circumstances and fate.

You can only ever be safe-er. Nothing about the road is safe, if it was, there would be no adrenaline to it and we would probably not do it.

 

[HikerToo_imp]

You know I could buy into all the guys saying dress for the crash, not for the ride, but it seems to me that if one were REALLY, and I mean really, interested in being safe, all the ATGATT guys would be wearing more Hi Viz..jackets, helmets etc, and although I am seeing more of it these days, very few are giving up their black or bike matching colored jackets and helmets for Hi Viz.

Isn't it better to try and avoid the crash in the first place than to just wear gear to help in case of?

Isn't the number one excuse for drivers pulling out in front of motorcyclists the old "I didn't see him" line?

On my recent tour out west I wore a high viz vest over top of my regular gear 100% the time. I was in strange areas, looking for hidden roads, with unfamiliar traffic patterns. I wanted people to see me. I also had extra reflective stickers on my helmet and bike ( seems many on this forum immediately remove the side reflectors on their bikes). I saw lots of bikes on our trip out west. Jim's jacket and my vest were the only Hi Viz gear I saw,



I can tell you from working 25 years in the highway traffic safety field, that Hi Viz is the most important thing you can wear if you want to be seen on the highway. Without question, the greatest thing you can wear from a safety stand point.

So, many of you safety first guys, what is your excuse for not wearing Hi Viz gear?

Good question, just like compromises on how much gear to wear, same with what it looks like I guess....I rely on the head light and red color to help me be seen, and I don't think too many HiViz motorcycle paint jobs sell very well either.

 

[Tripod_imp]

Obituary: Lawrence Grodsky / Top American expert on motorcycle safety

 

[Dengie Boy_imp]

I know that I am in a minority both on the road and at this forum, but I am a hiviz white hat biker. No, it does not look cool, but then I am an old fart whose days of looking cool have long past anyway.
Let me tell you hitting the side door of a ton of metal at 60mph is not cool either. I swear to this day (30 years on) that I heard my femur break on the handle bars of my RD400. "I just didn't see you chum, sorry". I wrote the bike off, the car off (bloody good job) and three months of my life off with my leg in traction. I did return cautiously to biking, but a few years later marriage, kids and a mortgage forced me to sell up.
Five years ago, after a long classic restoration project I returned to the saddle. A couple of days before my planned return my best mate had his knee smashed to pieces by a woman with a car full of kids who literally aimed her tin shed straight into the side of his GS1100. I asked him from his hospital bed exactly what had happened "I can't remember a thing but coming around on my back with this woman leaning over me in floods of tears repeating over and over I didn't see you, I just didn't see you". He is back on the road now with a hiviz top and a terribly uncool limp, that he is now told after numerous operations will need a replacement joint.

Since my hiviz return to biking, having covered some 5k miles many on the busy streets of London and other congested UK roads I can honestly say that I have not been threatened - no clever remarks please! In fact most motorists clearly go on their best behaviour when I pull up behind them, much to my amusement!

I have campaigned with others to make hiviz jackets a legal requirement, but I am selfishly now off the opinion that if every biker on the road was forced to wear one I would again become inconspicuous.

Sorry to bang on, but it is a pet subject of mine.

Given the above, I think my opinion on open face helmets is obvious.

Cheers
Dengie
PS
Saw these for sale at a recent bike show that mimick UK police bikers jackets

No I didn't buy one. Even I am not that uncool!!!!!!!!!

Cheers
Dengie

 

[Tortuga_imp]

Careful Dengie, campaigning to enforce your sensibilities and views on others is not cool.

In the workplace it has become ridiculous how people behinds desks are now wearing hi viz vests in case they need to call some one in from the factory.

I have worn hi viz, when I was a learner, and again when I was an instructor. I even wore it to pick up my CB as the weather was bad.

Making it a legal requirement, not on my watch!

 

[shdwghst457_imp]

For real. Can you imagine the HD crowd being told this? Those guys lobby against helmets! I say every person's face is their own responsibility to protect.

 

[Cormanus]

For real. Can you imagine the HD crowd being told this? Those guys lobby against helmets! I say every person's face is their own responsibility to protect.

I agree, BUT ... in countries like the UK and Australia where taxpayers make significant contributions to public health, the cost of patching up people who acquire long term brain injuries from accidents (not just on motorcycles) falls on everyone complicating the issue somewhat. Hence we have laws that make wearing helmets compulsory and also make some form of third party person insurance mandatory.

Careful Dengie, campaigning to enforce your sensibilities and views on others is not cool.

In the workplace it has become ridiculous how people behinds desks are now wearing hi viz vests in case they need to call some one in from the factory.

I have worn hi viz, when I was a learner, and again when I was an instructor. I even wore it to pick up my CB as the weather was bad.

Making it a legal requirement, not on my watch!

Tortuga, somewhere on this forum is a link I posted to a piece on why wearing hi-viz vests doesn't help at all.

Ah, there it is, Cure for cabin fever

Dengie Boy, I guess you won't agree but, as I said in my earlier post, there is something to be said for contrarians.

 

[the Ferret]

Lol seems to me the piece said he hoped people would quit wearing hi viz because he didn't want to and didn't want it to become mandatory. He didn't say it didn't work.did I read it wrong both times?

 

[tomas_imp]

I ride with a open face helmet. I just can't stand wearing a full face helmet, They fog up, their hot and hard to breath inside for me anyway. I also think they take away from the freedom of the ride. Their will always be some risk of riding a motorcycle anyway. :biker:

 

[pechorin75_imp]

I won't get involved in arguments about mandatory safety equipment....but that said, having just read the anti-hi-viz article linked in a previous post, I'm a bit disgusted. I mean, I'm all for personal freedom/responsibility, but in a world where drivers often "never even see" the motorcyclists they kill, I find arguments against hi-viz from a safety standpoint pretty ludicrous.

The proof that it works is right there before your own eyes.

I was driving a car the other day when I saw a BMW rider waiting at an intersection further up the road. He was wearing a bright yellow hi-viz jacket. I'd wager I saw him literally hundreds of yards earlier than I would have otherwise, and continued to be aware of his presence. How can that possibly be a bad thing for the motorcyclist?

When I myself have worn a high-viz vest, it's been very obvious to me that drivers have given me more room. Is that a bad thing?

As to this guy's contention that motorcyclists are apt to become more reckless if they wear hi-viz--i.e., the "transfer of responsibility" argument--I seriously doubt it. You could argue against any safety device of any kind on that basis! I mean, have riders really become more reckless since they started wearing helmets?

I may ride like I'm invisible, but that doesn't mean I actually want to be invisible!

But I think what bugs me about the article more than anything is this: He's telling people not to adopt safety equipment that may well save their lives one day because--get this--as more of them do, the greater the odds it'll end up becoming the law for everyone. What a selfish, dishonest argument! His personal whims force him to argue that hi-vis is useless--something I'll bet he doesn't actually believe--so that he can then argue against people wearing it.

But it's a counterproductive argument, at least with me. After reading it, I wanted to go out and buy some more high-vis gear just to spite the guy.

 

[Firstfour_imp]

I won't get involved in arguments about mandatory safety equipment....but that said, having just read the anti-hi-viz article linked in a previous post, I'm a bit disgusted. I mean, I'm all for personal freedom/responsibility, but in a world where drivers often "never even see" the motorcyclists they kill, I find arguments against hi-viz from a safety standpoint pretty ludicrous.

The proof that it works is right there before your own eyes.

I was driving a car the other day when I saw a BMW rider waiting at an intersection further up the road. He was wearing a bright yellow hi-viz jacket. I'd wager I saw him literally hundreds of yards earlier than I would have otherwise, and continued to be aware of his presence. How can that possibly be a bad thing for the motorcyclist?

When I myself have worn a high-viz vest, it's been very obvious to me that drivers have given me more room. Is that a bad thing?

As to this guy's contention that motorcyclists are apt to become more reckless if they wear hi-viz--i.e., the "transfer of responsibility" argument--I seriously doubt it. You could argue against any safety device of any kind on that basis! I mean, have riders really become more reckless since they started wearing helmets?

I may ride like I'm invisible, but that doesn't mean I actually want to be invisible!

But I think what bugs me about the article more than anything is this: He's telling people not to adopt safety equipment that may well save their lives one day because--get this--as more of them do, the greater the odds it'll end up becoming the law for everyone. What a selfish, dishonest argument! His personal whims force him to argue that hi-vis is useless--something I'll bet he doesn't actually believe--so that he can then argue against people wearing it.

But it's a counterproductive argument, at least with me. After reading it, I wanted to go out and buy some more high-vis gear just to spite the guy.

That anti-hi-viz guy is a complete idiot.