No start - Battery replaced - No start

[jerrycon_imp]

A month ago, I stopped for gas after a high-speed freeway run. (Approximately 130 kph-plus for about 48 km.)

Put in the gas and the bike wouldn't start. Tried multiple times. Waited a while and finally got it going.

Got home. Checked OEM battery age at 4 years plus. Ordered a new, identical Yuasa battery.

Put the new battery in and hooked it up to the trickle charger. Went for maybe one or two rides, but the bike mostly sat in the garage on the trickle charger.

Went to ride it the other day. No start. Quickly took the battery down to where the needles don't do the thing of rolling all the way to the right when the key is turned. (That's when your battery is quite dead.)

Put the battery back on the trickle charger for several hours. Got the green light on the charger. Bike started right up. Went to start it today to take it to the shop. No start.

Put the battery back on the trickle charger to give it enough juice to make the needles go to the right when key turned. Then--despite misgivings--jump started the bike from the Honda Element.

It's in the shop now. I could have tried to get to the stator myself for some testing with a multimeter, but we're in a heat wave, and I want this officially logged by Honda anyway. Note that I am at only 6,000 km on this 2014 black standard.

After arriving at the shop. I turned the bike off. Then, just for grins, I tried starting it. It started perfectly three times in a row.

To me, there are only two possibilities:

1. I've got an improperly charging or not charging at all issue

2. I bought a faulty new battery (not likely with Yuasa)

 

[the Ferret]

I would suspect a faulty battery. Take it to a shop, have it charged then load tested. bet it fails.

 

[peterbaron]

A month ago, I stopped for gas after a high-speed freeway run. (Approximately 130 kph-plus for about 48 km.)

Put in the gas and the bike wouldn't start. Tried multiple times. Waited a while and finally got it going.

Got home. Checked OEM battery age at 4 years plus. Ordered a new, identical Yuasa battery.

Put the new battery in and hooked it up to the trickle charger. Went for maybe one or two rides, but the bike mostly sat in the garage on the trickle charger.

Went to ride it the other day. No start. Quickly took the battery down to where the needles don't do the thing of rolling all the way to the right when the key is turned. (That's when your battery is quite dead.)

Put the battery back on the trickle charger for several hours. Got the green light on the charger. Bike started right up. Went to start it today to take it to the shop. No start.

Put the battery back on the trickle charger to give it enough juice to make the needles go to the right when key turned. Then--despite misgivings--jump started the bike from the Honda Element.

It's in the shop now. I could have tried to get to the stator myself for some testing with a multimeter, but we're in a heat wave, and I want this officially logged by Honda anyway. Note that I am at only 6,000 km on this 2014 black standard.

After arriving at the shop. I turned the bike off. Then, just for grins, I tried starting it. It started perfectly three times in a row.

To me, there are only two possibilities:

1. I've got an improperly charging or not charging at all issue

2. I bought a faulty new battery (not likely with Yuasa)

There are two different problems for tech to solve:;
no start = means not firing but cranking over
not cranking over = means nothing happens, as if you had no starter to crank over your engine
If cranking over is not taking place = engine will not fire

It's like walking ino doctor's office and making a statement: I am sick
So be specific in your complaint, PLEASE

 

[ohiorider_imp]

A month ago, I stopped for gas after a high-speed freeway run. (Approximately 130 kph-plus for about 48 km.)

Put in the gas and the bike wouldn't start. Tried multiple times. Waited a while and finally got it going.

Got home. Checked OEM battery age at 4 years plus. Ordered a new, identical Yuasa battery.

Put the new battery in and hooked it up to the trickle charger. Went for maybe one or two rides, but the bike mostly sat in the garage on the trickle charger.

Went to ride it the other day. No start. Quickly took the battery down to where the needles don't do the thing of rolling all the way to the right when the key is turned. (That's when your battery is quite dead.)

Put the battery back on the trickle charger for several hours. Got the green light on the charger. Bike started right up. Went to start it today to take it to the shop. No start.

Put the battery back on the trickle charger to give it enough juice to make the needles go to the right when key turned. Then--despite misgivings--jump started the bike from the Honda Element.

It's in the shop now. I could have tried to get to the stator myself for some testing with a multimeter, but we're in a heat wave, and I want this officially logged by Honda anyway. Note that I am at only 6,000 km on this 2014 black standard.

After arriving at the shop. I turned the bike off. Then, just for grins, I tried starting it. It started perfectly three times in a row.

To me, there are only two possibilities:

1. I've got an improperly charging or not charging at all issue

2. I bought a faulty new battery (not likely with Yuasa)

Depends on the model Yuasa and how it was prepped. I've had very good experience with their batteries. However, a few years ago, I replaced the Yuasa in my Moto Guzzi 1200 Sport with an identical battery. Although described as maintenance free, some do not come with acid already installed, but must have acid added and the battery must then be charged per their instructions.

My replacement failed to start after a 6-7 months. Since the battery was still under warranty, the bike shop prepped another Yuasa (filled with acid and charged over several hours.) It's been working well since May 2014.

 

[redbirds_imp]

The maintenance free Yuasa does not need an acid fill. I would check my charging system also. A multimeter across the battery terminals with the motor running should show about 14 volts.

 

[cooldrum_imp]

jerrycon, I concur with ferret, to have the battery load tested. I ride a 2013 standard and didn't want to wait, so I replaced it with an agm at the 4 year mark. When these newer batteries decide to dump, they just do without any warning.
Hopefully the battery was just a bad one. Let us know what happens in future posts.

 

[SportsterDoc]

A. We need battery voltages:

1. Key off should be close to 12.8

2. Key on, immediately after turning on, should drop only 0.2 to 0.3, but continue to drop from headlight load

3. While trying to crank, should be not less than 10.5

4. At a high idle should be 13.8 to 14.8

B. What is the condition of both ends of both battery cables?

 

[max]

Im with ohio rider and ferret on this one, from your good description you are dealing with an expired/bad battery. ( #2 )

( #1 )
If you wanted to test your charging system in a simple way have a look at the main beam on a wall or other light surface whilst idling, then stop the engine by means of the red engine stop button.
if the light dims slightly when the engine stops the charging system works.
You can repeat this test several times to make sure the light dims slightly when the engine stops.

Yuasa are the best choice in my book especially the agm ones that come in the bike ( my one is 8 Years old and still starts the bike several times, amazing ) but any battery can fail without warning.
Don't think you have made any mistake from what you describe.
Lithium batteries are almost a better choice now but they have not been time proven enough in my opinion.

Hi SD we've done it again.
Best of luck with the new battery; max

 

[SportsterDoc]

After fueling, did starter crank/turnover at all?
If it did, did it crank normal...until battery drained?
Did you check fir spark?

Im with ohio rider and ferret on this one, from your good description you are dealing with an expired/bad battery. ( #2 )

( #1 )
If you wanted to test your charging system in a simple way have a look at the main beam on a wall or other light surface whilst idling, then stop the engine by means of the red engine stop button.
if the light dims slightly when the engine stops the charging system works.
You can repeat this test several times to make sure the light dims slightly when the engine stops.

Yuasa are the best choice in my book especially the agm ones that come in the bike ( my one is 8 Years old and still starts the bike several times, amazing ) but any battery can fail without warning.
Don't think you have made any mistake from what you describe.
Lithium batteries are almost a better choice now but they have not been time proven enough in my opinion.

Hi SD we've done it again.
Best of luck with the new battery; max

Yep!
But it is time to hit the hay.

Spent some time with daughter-in-law trouble-shooting a short to neutral/ground on direct burial cable. Narrowed it down to one section...but it goes under concrete...grrr! Might be related to last night's thunder storm...or just coincidence.

 

[jerrycon_imp]

Thank you all. It feels mighty fine to have the knowledge of the worldwide CB1100 forum supporting me. Exact wording from the Roseville Honda repair order invoice provided below.

CHECK/ADVISE INTERMITTENT NO START, POSSIBLE NO CHARGE
Description:
Diagnose intermittent no start. Possibly not charging.
Resolution:
Inspected and found poor charging output after idle. Removed dead battery and charged. Connected jumper battery and retested. Charging problem did not re-occur with jumper battery. Customer battery failed load test after charging. Need to replace battery and retest charging system.

R&R BATTERY
Resolution:
Installed new battery and retested charging system. Charging system output is good at 14.31 VDC @ idle with no key off amps draw. Completed 7/14/2018
After a nice test ride out in the heat wave, Black Beauty is back in the garage connected to the trickle charger. The charging light turned green fairly quickly after connection--a good sign.

I compared the old, factory-provided battery with the replacement ordered from Amazon. Replacement appears to be a genuine, made-in-Japan Yuasa battery.

Factory-Provided Battery
YTZ14S - VRLA - GS YUASA
Date code: 08011443 = 8 January, 2014 (2014 model CB)

Replacement Battery from Amazon
YTZ14S - MF - YUASA (a couple of labeling differences compared to factory battery)
Date code: 06111746 = 6 November 2017

Now begins the refund process. It starts with Amazon noting that: "This item isn't eligible for return. This item can’t be returned since it requires special transportation and handling which we can’t provide. Use the Contact us button for help addressing your issue.

In my favor is a 100% success rate in dealing with Amazon. I believe they'll come through as usual. We shall see.

 

[SportsterDoc]

What was the cost of the battery test at the dealer?

 

[the Ferret]

I would suspect a faulty battery. Take it to a shop, have it charged then load tested. bet it fails.

NAILED IT! :rofl:

 

[max]

jc thanks for the end result, reading the dealer's finding is re-assuring to find a good testing regime that looks at data rather than just "see what happens" approach.
All it takes for a new battery to loose it's luster is to have it dropped just once flat on it's lower side and all plates to disconnect from their supports and all care from the factory is wasted.

looks like you're in good hands here.

 

[SportsterDoc]

I would suspect a faulty battery. Take it to a shop, have it charged then load tested. bet it fails.

NAILED IT! :rofl:

Yep and voltages referenced in post 7 would have confirmed it.

 

[jerrycon_imp]

What was the cost of the battery test at the dealer?

$109, which is their hourly labor rate

Sad litany of excuses below for not doing the job myself:
[ul] [li]heat wave (can't use that one on you)[/li] [li]official paperwork for my Amazon refund (not necessarily needed)[/li] [li]need to buy a digital multimeter (still using my analog one from 1976)[/li] [li]official record with Honda in case it happens again[/li] [li]scarred by the memory of my 1981 or 1982 CB650 ownership experience--permanent electrical/charging issues
[/li][/ul]
But those are all just excuses. Armed with knowledge gleaned from your Post #7 - Battery Voltages and the new digital multimeter I am finally going to buy, I will easily go a level deeper next time around.

P.S. If you know of a good digital multimeter in the $100 range, I will happily take a recommendation.

 

[flynrider]

For this purpose, your analog meter should do just fine. All you really need is a voltage reading from the battery with the bike running. If it shows normal battery voltage or less, you have a charging problem. If it's mid 13v to mid 14v, the alternator is working and the battery is likely not accepting the charge.

I know what you mean about the early 80s CB650 charging system. That thing was anemic even when the (delicate) stator was brand new.

 

[Lord Popgun]

The parts man at my dealer puts a pretty expensive digital battery tester on every battery he sells whether OEM or aftermarket (they sell both). The tester runs a number of tests. He said OEM or aftermarket has failed new out of the box. And better to know at the parts counter than back in your garage or wherever.

 

[SportsterDoc]

For this purpose, your analog meter should do just fine. All you really need is a voltage reading from the battery with the bike running. If it shows normal battery voltage or less, you have a charging problem. If it's mid 13v to mid 14v, the alternator is working and the battery is likely not accepting the charge.

I know what you mean about the early 80s CB650 charging system. That thing was anemic even when the (delicate) stator was brand new.

Yes, +1, ditto.
Until I inherited my dad's Fluke 77, my testing was done with a $30 Radio Shack pocket auto ranging digital meter. They have also been gifts to kids and grandkids. Don't think they are still available. Search results for: 'products radioshack 22 range pocket digital multimeter'

An analog meter has the advantage of being able to give a basic test to capacitors.

For this purpose, your analog meter should do just fine. All you really need is a voltage reading from the battery with the bike running. If it shows normal battery voltage or less, you have a charging problem. If it's mid 13v to mid 14v, the alternator is working and the battery is likely not accepting the charge.

I know what you mean about the early 80s CB650 charging system. That thing was anemic even when the (delicate) stator was brand new.

To know if the charging system is 13.8 to 14.8, yes.
However, I was looking for more:

Key off is battery voltage, with 12.8 showing a full charge. It not fully charged, it will affect further testing.

Key on shows extent of drop under headlight load. Instead of 12.6 (maybe 12.5), it will be less if a cell has failed.

While cranking, under 10.5 will show a bad cell. This is a poor man's load test.

The parts man at my dealer puts a pretty expensive digital battery tester on every battery he sells whether OEM or aftermarket (they sell both). The tester runs a number of tests. He said OEM or aftermarket has failed new out of the box. And better to know at the parts counter than back in your garage or wherever.

Yes, new does not always equal good.
When I buy a new battery, I bring a pocket VOM with me and check the mfg date.

What was the cost of the battery test at the dealer?

$109, which is their hourly labor rate

Sad litany of excuses below for not doing the job myself:
[ul] [li]heat wave (can't use that one on you)[/li] [li]official paperwork for my Amazon refund (not necessarily needed)[/li] [li]need to buy a digital multimeter (still using my analog one from 1976)[/li] [li]official record with Honda in case it happens again[/li] [li]scarred by the memory of my 1981 or 1982 CB650 ownership experience--permanent electrical/charging issues
[/li][/ul]
But those are all just excuses. Armed with knowledge gleaned from your Post #7 - Battery Voltages and the new digital multimeter I am finally going to buy, I will easily go a level deeper next time around.

P.S. If you know of a good digital multimeter in the $100 range, I will happily take a recommendation.

The dealer has to pay labor, cover costs of a building, equipment, insurance, business licenses, etc. $109 is not high and I expect it is a one hour minimum charge.

However, with a VOM in hand, those tests only take a few minutes, once you access the battery posts.

 

[HondaJon_imp]

Yuasa is not what it used to be. After going thru 2 on my 2013, I bit the bullet and switched to a Shorai Lithium on both the CB and the B-King.

 

[jerrycon_imp]

The repair order invoice came in quite handy. Lake Champlain Batteries asked some fairly detailed questions. With minimum hassle, the refund is done.

--------------------------------------------------------

From: Amazon.com <payments-messages@amazon.com>
Sent: Monday, July 16, 2018 4:06 PM
To: email@address.com
Subject: Refund on order 114-0688155-8344240

Hello,

We're writing to let you know we processed your refund of $147.95 for your Order 114-0688155-8344240 from Lake Champlain Batteries.

This refund is for the following item(s):

Item: Yuasa YTZ14S Battery
Quantity: 1
ASIN: B0024VFY86
Reason for refund: Item not satisfactory

Here's the breakdown of your refund for this item:

Item Refund: $147.95

Notes: Defective battery, customer already purchased a replacement from another vendor.

We'll apply your refund to the following payment method(s):

Credit Card: $147.95

We've processed a refund for the above order in the amount of $147.95. In most cases, once a refund has been submitted, the issuing bank will post it to your account within 3-5 business days when issued to a credit card. Refunds issued to a bank account or pin-less debit typically take 10 business days to reflect on the account balance. This time frame may vary from one financial institution to another.

Have questions about our refund policy?
Visit our Help section for more information:

http://www.amazon.com/refunds

We look forward to seeing you again soon.

Sincerely,

Amazon.com
We're Building Earth's Most Customer-Centric Company
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