MMG Lithium Ion Battery

[flynrider]

Well, the FEDEX man dropped by with a package this afternoon. When someone hands you a package with a motorcycle battery, you expect it to be heavy. Not so! This thing is light as a (really big) feather. Just over 2 lbs.

Out of the box I compared it with the YTZ14S AGM battery that came stock on the CB11. It's about 1/2" shorter, but the rest of the dimensions are the same. The battery comes with a couple of spacers that attach to the bottom that make it match the original size exactly.

It appears to be fully charged according to the capacity meter built into the top of the battery. Push the button and you get 3 lights for a full charge, 2 lights for medum charge and a single light for low (below 40%) charge. A voltage check with the meter showed 13.25V. Mfg. recommends charging the battery if the voltage falls below 12.8V

Instructions say the charging system (or battery charger) must supply at least 14V, but no more than 15V for the battery to charge. A check of the bikes electrical system last week showed a steady 14.0V to 14.1V above 2K rpm, so I should be OK in that respect. According to the label, the battery can accept a max 20 amp charge and lists a typical charge rate of 2.5 amps. The U.S. distributor has a video on YouTube showing the battery going from discharged to full charge in 6 min. Not sure I'd want to cram that many electrons in at once. I'll likely stick with my slow 2 amp charger if I have to charge it up.

I'm planning on installing it tonight and I'll update this thread with the results and some pics.

 

[the Ferret]

wow pretty amazing stuff really, and space age for a guy like me. Looking forward to pics and updates.

 

[flynrider]

You're not kidding! I've always been a lead/acid guy when it comes to batteries. The AGM sealed battery in the CB11 was the first I'd had and it didn't impress. I'm in totally uncharted territory with this new lithium battery tech. We'll see what happens *fingers crossed*.

 

[flynrider]

Install complete. It took about 15 min. Since the lithium with the spacers is the identical size, the fit was perfect. The battery compartment is a bit of a tight squeeze. The main issue was getting the cables out of the way to get the battery all the way to the bottom of the compartment.

Lithium battery without spacers

Lithium battery with spacers installed

Built in test lights (3 lights=full charge)

Installed and ready to go (don't forget the strap!)

The bike started up strong. I took it out for about a 10 mile test ride and gas stop. When I got back I checked the charging system voltage it was a steady 14.1V at idle speed and pretty much stayed there regardless of rpm. That's a very stable system. That should do fine to keep the battery charged even at idle speeds. After shutting down it showed a healthy 13.7V.

Well, that's about all for now. I'll let you all know how it works out.

 

[Pterodactyl_imp]

Flyn, that is a very interesting bit of kit. Let us know how it goes. Thanks for the technical details re charge rate etc.

Cheers

 

[rboe]

The only issues I've heard about them, they have a problem with current draw in cold temps. Cold temps for AZ, not Minnesota. So come this winter I think the real test will happen.

So why did you pick MMG over the other offerings?

 

[7thGearDesigns_imp]

In addition to sprockets, I'm also a Shorai battery dealer, the cold temp thing is really not an issue like some would make it out to be, most lithium battery manufactures recommend you simply turn the ignition on to bring on the lights for 30 seconds or so.
This simple action warms the battery up to increase performance.

Lithium units function the opposite of lead acid, when the lithium units heat up, the resistance across the cells in the battery drops, which increases performance, in the lead-acid units, as they heat up the resistance goes up causing the battery performance to drop.

I sold a Shorai to a guy in PA, he had no trouble starting his Triumph Daytona on a 20 deg. day.

jim

 

[rboe]

My one and only Lithium Ion battery is a Shorai unit that toasted on a cold day in Phoenix. This was about three years ago so my memory is fuzzy. I want to say it was only 27 degrees. It was replaced under warranty (some forum chatter seemed to indicate some starting problems for Lithium Ions when it got cooler) but that battery has not seen a bike since. I'm just a wee bit leary.

I'd probably go with a Lithium next time, but now that I'm retired, the price point is the major hurdle.

 

[Pterodactyl_imp]

The only issues I've heard about them, they have a problem with current draw in cold temps. Cold temps for AZ, not Minnesota. So come this winter I think the real test will happen.

So why did you pick MMG over the other offerings?

That is a issue that has been discussed on other forums. One solution offered was to turn the ignition on for a minute or so and let the current drain of the fuel pump, lights, ECM etc warm the battery up prior to putting the high start load on it.

Cheers

 

[flynrider]

The only issues I've heard about them, they have a problem with current draw in cold temps. Cold temps for AZ, not Minnesota. So come this winter I think the real test will happen.

So why did you pick MMG over the other offerings?

As the others pointed out, they do have a cold start quirk. Doing research around the 'net I saw recommendations of leaving the bike/headlight on for up to 10 min. prior to starting if the temps are in the 20s. My typical coldest winter starts are in the 30s, so we'll see.

I was shopping on Amazon and the MMG had generally good reviews, came in the exact replacement size I needed and at $99 it seemed like a reasonable price.

 

[rboe]

Wow! $99 is an excellent price point.

 

[the Ferret]

One question I would have is how is the warning on those batteries when they are on the downside and about to give up? Do they turn over slowly, or do you walk out, turn on the key someday and nothing, like on the agm batts?

 

[flynrider]

One question I would have is how is the warning on those batteries when they are on the downside and about to give up? Do they turn over slowly, or do you walk out, turn on the key someday and nothing, like on the agm batts?

Good question. While I haven't seen any info on the particular failure modes, I do plan on periodically making use of the built in capacity indicator on the top of the battery. That should give some warning before it goes completely flat. According to the documentation I've seen, the resting voltage is also a good gauge of battery health. If it goes below 12.8V it's in the questionable zone.

 

[huxley2_imp]

TTT. going to need one soon I think.

 

[flynrider]

Update :

Today I got to test a cold weather start. It was 33 degrees F this morning. I turned the key and hit the starter as soon as the gauge sweep was complete. It started right up, but I detected that the cranking speed was just a tiny bit slower than usual. I didn't have to use the cold weather procedure where you turn the key and let it warm up for a bit before cranking. I suspect that if I had done it that way, it would have cranked at the normal speed. I'll try that next time it gets that cold.

BTW, I managed to drain the battery by leaving the key on overnight, back in October. The battery has circuitry which cuts it off when the voltage gets too low. It was down to around 10V resting voltage and nothing happened when I turned the key on. I put it on a dumb charger at 2 amps for 5 hrs. and it recovered completely. No problems since then.

 

[LARIDER_imp]

Update :

Today I got to test a cold weather start. It was 33 degrees F this morning. I turned the key and hit the starter as soon as the gauge sweep was complete. It started right up, but I detected that the cranking speed was just a tiny bit slower than usual. I didn't have to use the cold weather procedure where you turn the key and let it warm up for a bit before cranking. I suspect that if I had done it that way, it would have cranked at the normal speed. I'll try that next time it gets that cold.

BTW, I managed to drain the battery by leaving the key on overnight, back in October. The battery has circuitry which cuts it off when the voltage gets too low. It was down to around 10V resting voltage and nothing happened when I turned the key on. I put it on a dumb charger at 2 amps for 5 hrs. and it recovered completely. No problems since then.

Thanks for the update. I've been thinking about making the switch to the MMG battery but a little hesitant as my only experience with Lithium-Ion has been with power tools.

I'm thinking it would make a fine Xmas present to myself......

 

[rbike_imp]

I've been meaning to get a post in here, but have been tied up for a few days. My company manufactures _____ (keeping in the rules) plus I have a ____ background and I know a few things regarding this specific subject.

Quick background, AGM (absorb Glass Mat ) batteries are basically Pb (lead) inside an H2SO4 (Sulphuric Acid Bath) causing electron flow. The difference with AGM batteries is that their acid bath is more "solidified" throughout a fiberglass mat type of material instead of being in a liquid version like the basic wet cell car or mc type battery. They last 3 times longer and are apx. 2 times the price for the same basic specifications. Little to no maintenance and leak free.

Now Lithium - too much to say here, but in a nutshell - Not Ready for Prime Time. The theory is great, but the practical implementation results in serious accidents waiting to happen. The big problem is a run away thermal chemical reaction that can not be stopped once initiated - think of the "China Syndrome", but on a much smaller scale.

In very large battery banks (not the original purpose) the supposed performance gains have to be measured against their 10 times the price and severe safety issues. To induce this risk on your mc, is not something to be taken lightly - and for what reason? For cell phones, laptops, ... , but things life dependent or really Expensive, the risk (non-existent or slight as some may think) is not worth it - IMPB.

I have a FAQ weblink regarding this subject matter should you decide to view it here (ZRD FAQ - Lithium Batteries Important Information).

AGM batteries are sealed allowing only gas to vent out if being overcharged, otherwise they never need to be touched. Because they are sealed, they can not be "cured" if damaged, but normal use (big variable here) should give many years of trouble free operation and there is never a spill or need to check the "water" level. It also does not hide its condition and fail out of no where without warnings. With a simple $19.95 carbon pile battery tester from companies like Harbor Freight, you will know many months in advance if your battery is getting old and should be monitored for replacement.

Should anyone want to take this offline, send me a PM. 'hope this helps vs. adds to the confusion.

 

[AzBob_imp]

I've been meaning to get a post in here, but have been tied up for a few days. My company manufactures _____ (keeping in the rules) plus I have a ____ background and I know a few things regarding this specific subject.

Quick background, AGM (absorb Glass Mat ) batteries are basically Pb (lead) inside an H2SO4 (Sulphuric Acid Bath) causing electron flow. The difference with AGM batteries is that their acid bath is more "solidified" throughout a fiberglass mat type of material instead of being in a liquid version like the basic wet cell car or mc type battery. They last 3 times longer and are apx. 2 times the price for the same basic specifications. Little to no maintenance and leak free.

Now Lithium - too much to say here, but in a nutshell - Not Ready for Prime Time. The theory is great, but the practical implementation results in serious accidents waiting to happen. The big problem is a run away thermal chemical reaction that can not be stopped once initiated - think of the "China Syndrome", but on a much smaller scale.

In very large battery banks (not the original purpose) the supposed performance gains have to be measured against their 10 times the price and severe safety issues. To induce this risk on your mc, is not something to be taken lightly - and for what reason? For cell phones, laptops, ... , but things life dependent or really Expensive, the risk (non-existent or slight as some may think) is not worth it - IMPB.

I have a FAQ weblink regarding this subject matter should you decide to view it here (ZRD FAQ - Lithium Batteries Important Information).

AGM batteries are sealed allowing only gas to vent out if being overcharged, otherwise they never need to be touched. Because they are sealed, they can not be "cured" if damaged, but normal use (big variable here) should give many years of trouble free operation and there is never a spill or need to check the "water" level. It also does not hide its condition and fail out of no where without warnings. With a simple $19.95 carbon pile battery tester from companies like Harbor Freight, you will know many months in advance if your battery is getting old and should be monitored for replacement.

Should anyone want to take this offline, send me a PM. 'hope this helps vs. adds to the confusion.

These batteries have been in use for over a decade. LiFePO4 batteries are not LiCoO2; everything lithium is not the same. These batteries are MUCH less susceptible to overheating/explosion due to the difference in chemistry.

While not proof of anything, I've had a LiFePO4 battery in one of my motorcycles for the past four years or so and I've charged it with simple Pb chargers as well as a proper balancing charger (and obviously, the bike's charging system) and not a single bad thing has ever happened. Again, anecdotal, obviously.

 

[rbike_imp]

It was with great reluctance that I even posted on this subject. It is up there with many off-limit subjects that are very personal to many like I'm sure oil wars is here.

Being that we are only dealing with 25 or so Ah (amp hours), and are able to literally get off the bike if needed - however tell that to some PC & smartphone users.

I work in an environment that that is not an option for most of the time. Things have no choice but to work properly or loss of life is going to happen. Additionally, the typical battery bank is in excess of 1,000Ah! That makes one large uncontrolled reaction.

With the excellent lifespan and properties of the typical AGM mc battery, I do not find the need to be bleeding-edge on this item. The risk reward is possibly way too high. If there was a compelling reason to use lithium, I might reconsider, but it would have to be overwhelming at this point in time.

 

[AzBob_imp]

The battery in a laptop and smartphone is an entirely different chemistry from these motorsports batteries.

I agree that if we were talking about much higher amperages it might be a different calculation on risk.

Everyone should do whatever makes them comfortable.