Dave Swanson
Running like a top
Hopefully things will change in the rest of the 49 states. It's frustrating not being able to split lanes in Illinois.
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That is correct.EmptySea_imp said:The opposition from car drivers is just petty envy that some will be at their destination a bit sooner than they; even when that makes absolutely no difference to their time of arrival. But why are many motorcyclists also opposed? I have a theory: in North America, motorcycle is for the most part a toy, and thus riders choose to ride on the roads with little or no traffic, and even if they care how fast they ride, they do not care when they arrive.rotor_imp said:The opposition from car drivers is just petty envy that some will be at their destination a bit sooner than they; even when that makes absolutely no difference to their time of arrival. But why are many motorcyclists also opposed? I have a theory: in North America, motorcycle is for the most part a toy, and thus riders choose to ride on the roads with little or no traffic, and even if they care how fast they ride, they do not care when they arrive.Randy B_imp said:This is the truth. It is ingrained in riders all across North America that it's dangerous, except for in California, and they think we are nuts for doing it. If drivers know that it's coming and rider do it responsibly then the risk is minimal.rotor_imp said:What I find interesting when talking to fellow motorcyclists in North America is that when the subject comes up they invariably mention something like "its not done anywhere with the exception of California".
On the contrary, its done everywhere, world-wide, with the exception of US and Canada.
It's a win-win for everyone, but too many drivers here think "they are just cutting in front of me" and all that is is selfish thinking.
It is very instructive to watch motorcycle traffic in Seoul, Bangkok or Sanaa: 99% of that traffic is for business, not pleasure. In a typical North American city the ratio is an inverse. You can see a rear carrier on a very few motorcycles here, while in the rest of the world, you can hardly see a motorcycle without one.
It is very instructive to watch motorcycle traffic in Seoul, Bangkok or Sanaa: 99% of that traffic is for business, not pleasure. In a typical North American city the ratio is an inverse. You can see a rear carrier on a very few motorcycles here, while in the rest of the world, you can hardly see a motorcycle without one.
I'll accept Randy's "too many drivers here think..." proposition, but rotor's "petty envy" comment is insulting, judgmental, and incorrect. There is no question that lane-splitting is more dangerous than if all vehicles were flowing at the same speed in their own lanes. Drivers recognize this and it influences their opinion on the topic. Some, perhaps most, drivers are not aware of the theory (and it is only a theory) that lane-splitting is safer for the rider than being part of stop and go traffic. That does not make them petty. I am a driver...I do not want any other vehicle in my lane because it decreases the size of MY safety zone as well as the size of the other vehicle's safety zone. I may be willing to yield this space to motorcycles, but only if I can be convinced that the overall safety of the highway system is enhanced. Unless you can begin to convince the 4 and 18 wheeled public that this is the safer alternative as opposed to the most expedient alternative to motorcyclists, you will continue to run into what I believe is rational opposition to lane splitting. And that's where Cali's new iniative and Randy's interview have to be focused.
That is correct.rotor_imp said:That is correct.EmptySea_imp said:The opposition from car drivers is just petty envy that some will be at their destination a bit sooner than they; even when that makes absolutely no difference to their time of arrival. But why are many motorcyclists also opposed? I have a theory: in North America, motorcycle is for the most part a toy, and thus riders choose to ride on the roads with little or no traffic, and even if they care how fast they ride, they do not care when they arrive.rotor_imp said:The opposition from car drivers is just petty envy that some will be at their destination a bit sooner than they; even when that makes absolutely no difference to their time of arrival. But why are many motorcyclists also opposed? I have a theory: in North America, motorcycle is for the most part a toy, and thus riders choose to ride on the roads with little or no traffic, and even if they care how fast they ride, they do not care when they arrive.Randy B_imp said:This is the truth. It is ingrained in riders all across North America that it's dangerous, except for in California, and they think we are nuts for doing it. If drivers know that it's coming and rider do it responsibly then the risk is minimal.rotor_imp said:What I find interesting when talking to fellow motorcyclists in North America is that when the subject comes up they invariably mention something like "its not done anywhere with the exception of California".
On the contrary, its done everywhere, world-wide, with the exception of US and Canada.
It's a win-win for everyone, but too many drivers here think "they are just cutting in front of me" and all that is is selfish thinking.
It is very instructive to watch motorcycle traffic in Seoul, Bangkok or Sanaa: 99% of that traffic is for business, not pleasure. In a typical North American city the ratio is an inverse. You can see a rear carrier on a very few motorcycles here, while in the rest of the world, you can hardly see a motorcycle without one.
It is very instructive to watch motorcycle traffic in Seoul, Bangkok or Sanaa: 99% of that traffic is for business, not pleasure. In a typical North American city the ratio is an inverse. You can see a rear carrier on a very few motorcycles here, while in the rest of the world, you can hardly see a motorcycle without one.
I'll accept Randy's "too many drivers here think..." proposition, but rotor's "petty envy" comment is insulting, judgmental, and incorrect. There is no question that lane-splitting is more dangerous than if all vehicles were flowing at the same speed in their own lanes. Drivers recognize this and it influences their opinion on the topic. Some, perhaps most, drivers are not aware of the theory (and it is only a theory) that lane-splitting is safer for the rider than being part of stop and go traffic. That does not make them petty. I am a driver...I do not want any other vehicle in my lane because it decreases the size of MY safety zone as well as the size of the other vehicle's safety zone. I may be willing to yield this space to motorcycles, but only if I can be convinced that the overall safety of the highway system is enhanced. Unless you can begin to convince the 4 and 18 wheeled public that this is the safer alternative as opposed to the most expedient alternative to motorcyclists, you will continue to run into what I believe is rational opposition to lane splitting. And that's where Cali's new iniative and Randy's interview have to be focused.
Quote:...I may be willing to yield this space to motorcycles, but only if I can be convinced that the overall safety of the highway system is enhanced. Overall safety is not enhanced. But "safety", desirable as it unquestionably is, is not an absolute. The best highway traffic system is not the one with least number of accidents, the best one is one with the highest throughput with a given acceptable number of accidents. We could find any number of ways to decrease number of accidents to near zero if we accept severe decrease in throughput, but this is not the objective of traffic planners; their objective is to find a reasonable balance between the safety and throughput.
Another element of "safety" needs also to be taken into consideration here: the safety consequences of lane sharing are infinitely less serious for car drivers than for motorcyclists; this is why I took the liberty to characterise the opposition of the former as I did.
Not crazy at all.MMC_imp said:This might sound crazy to some but I actually enjoy the lane splitting part of my commute. I can actually "ride" my bike instead of just cruising at high speed. I only go where I can fit and don't expect cars to move for me, if they don't, I wait or find another way around. I even listen to music while riding. I used to find it stressful but now I just enjoy the ride!
Sent from me......
Elipten_imp said:Yes you are. Splitting IMHO puts more situational demand on the car driver and motorcyclist. How one can quantify that risk versus the risk of the motorcyclist being in traffic.
Here is one for you. I am in the car pool lane 80 mph, which is standard if you don't want to have someone on your rear tire. I constantly check my surroundings to see who's coming up in the lane to my right, which we call the #1 lane. Often vehicles with drivers who are texting and facebooking (yes, they are doing that, they are not scanning diligently) or otherwise distracted, putting on makeup, chatting, drifting off to sleep, eating an In-n-Out burger, whatever, these drivers will fade into the car pool lane and come very close to the double-yellow or double-white line, so it is not a good idea to ride to far right of the car pool lane.Elipten_imp said:Yes you are. Splitting IMHO puts more situational demand on the car driver and motorcyclist. How one can quantify that risk versus the risk of the motorcyclist being in traffic.
Thx, it's here, online too.EmptySea_imp said:There's a fairly interesting editorial piece in September's Motorcyclist Magazine on this issue.
lol, I was on the same ADV bike as mentioned a couple posts up in traffic and a car moved well over for me, but I didn't split up to the light, just stayed put. When the light changed the driver realized I was not a LEO and seemed a little miffed, jumped on the gas and took off. But either way, it was a nice gesture and showed the person was paying attention.Elipten_imp said:Put a headlight modulator on and they really move over due to thinking you are the law.