Kevin Cameron mixes alcohol and politics
- Thread starter Ulvetanna_imp
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kballowe_imp
Running like a top
WARNING: RANDOM THOUGHTS FOLLOW........
It appears that Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) provides huge quantities of "grain neutral ethyl alcohol" to the "spirits" industries. Vodka bottlers, in particular - since (by law) vodka is 40% alcohol and 60% water.
Blended whisky bottlers also buy large quantities of their ethyl alcohol.
Most of the rice crop in the USA goes into beer production.
Brazil grows a lot of sugarcane. What to do with all that sugarcane? I KNOW !!! Let's mandate 25% alcohol in the gasoline mix.
I'm thinking that Brazil pioneered a lot of the research and technology for materials that play well with alcohol.
Next random thought, please........
It appears that Archer Daniels Midland (ADM) provides huge quantities of "grain neutral ethyl alcohol" to the "spirits" industries. Vodka bottlers, in particular - since (by law) vodka is 40% alcohol and 60% water.
Blended whisky bottlers also buy large quantities of their ethyl alcohol.
Most of the rice crop in the USA goes into beer production.
Brazil grows a lot of sugarcane. What to do with all that sugarcane? I KNOW !!! Let's mandate 25% alcohol in the gasoline mix.
I'm thinking that Brazil pioneered a lot of the research and technology for materials that play well with alcohol.
Next random thought, please........
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
Thread starter
You think right. That is exactly what happened. Brazil started this bandwagon, whose time has come and gone. With oil reserves burgeoning (that's a journalist word) and prices tanking (another journo pun), no one needs more ethanol for IC fuel.kballowe_imp said:
On the other hand, Cameron's suggestion that using that extra corn for ethanol instead of for food raises food prices is absurd in the extreme. A preposterous leap.
There is no "extra" corn. Corn syrup was foisted onto the market by corn growers some decades back, as a replacement for sugar. The corn industry, like any industry, is always seeking new markets. Nothing wrong with that. If ethanol can be a market, so be it. But we don't need ethanol any longer, with fossil fuels plentiful and ever-greater efficiencies in cars and trucks.
I own two E85 "Flex-fuel" vehicles and have never put a drop of E85 in either. It's impossible to find; it would cost me a tank of fuel to visit the nearest Flexfuel station, and it's less efficient and more costly. Why would I do something like seek E85 under those circumstances? It would be stupid.
But, this article did get me thinking my Sym Wolf Classic 150 probably doesn't like ethanol much. Could be wrong, I don't know what kind of fuel they use in Taiwan. It may be just fine. E10 should be np.
As a final word, I think KC is imbibing of the finer spirits at times, perhaps just prior to writing this piece. Maybe?
The thing is, he covers no new ground, none at all. Nick Ienatsch's article was very helpful, KC's, not so much. Not at all, really.
Ya think?!:rofl: Probably put the whole concept away for good. Now KC can feel good about more cornmeal for the poor people. "Let them eat cornbread, I say."CB4ME_imp said:
I'll watch that one with some interest. It may equally well go the other way.CB4ME_imp said:
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
Thread starter
I'll watch that one with some interest. It may equally well go the other way. Not normally a betting man, what are the odds? Are you talking UK? Don't know about the EU or UK but for the USA, E is not the answer. Those drivers really wanting to make an impact (journo pun intended) on the use of fossil fuels and emissions will buy a Leaf, Tesla, Prius, or one of many available hybrids. Lexus, Toyota, GM and other auto makers have several models of SUV, up to the Tahoe/Suburban level, that are hybrids and/or Flexfuel compliant.Cormanus_imp said:
National sentiment has turned quite solidly against wind power, solar power, and ethanol as being any kind of help long-term.
Then again USA can grow lots and lots of corn, make the ethanol, and ship it to y'all "over there". A world market for corn likker.
Hey, that must be what Kevin was sipping, just a few belts of corn likker to take the edge off!
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
Thread starter
The article is really pretty inaccurate and alarmist.
Seals can be had today which will work with both ethanol and gasoline, the Flexfuel vehicles use them. There is no difficulty designing and building a vehicle that needs them.
But we won't be building those cars anyway, not in the USA, not now, not beyond E10. Brazil has been doing it for years, though. They've been making cars that will run on any blend up to E100 since 2007 and have been using E as a fuel since around 1930.
This article is really quite haphazard. When I started reading Cameron in 1983 such was not the case.
Seals can be had today which will work with both ethanol and gasoline, the Flexfuel vehicles use them. There is no difficulty designing and building a vehicle that needs them.
But we won't be building those cars anyway, not in the USA, not now, not beyond E10. Brazil has been doing it for years, though. They've been making cars that will run on any blend up to E100 since 2007 and have been using E as a fuel since around 1930.
This article is really quite haphazard. When I started reading Cameron in 1983 such was not the case.
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
Thread starter
Why would I talk UK or Europe when I live in Australia?Ulvetanna_imp said:
Your comment assumes we have ethanol in fuel solely because of a shortage of petroleum or political pressure for renewable energy sources. There's an equally good argument, I suspect, that it has less to do with renewables than the protection of US corn growers and Brazilian sugar growers. Who knows? People will buy Priuses and Teslas and whatever, but the ethanol may well keep being added to the gasoline to appease the might of the US farming lobby.
My view is that the future of ethanol in petrol will turn on whoever is the most potent lobby in the US. What happens in the US will affect the rest of the world.
No wonder Kevin has a headache.
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
Thread starter
Why would I talk UK or Europe when I live in Australia?Cormanus_imp said:
Your comment assumes we have ethanol in fuel solely because of a shortage of petroleum or political pressure for renewable energy sources. There's an equally good argument, I suspect, that it has less to do with renewables than the protection of US corn growers and Brazilian sugar growers. Who knows? People will buy Priuses and Teslas and whatever, but the ethanol may well keep being added to the gasoline to appease the might of the US farming lobby.
My view is that the future of ethanol in petrol will turn on whoever is the most potent lobby in the US. What happens in the US will affect the rest of the world.
No wonder Kevin has a headache. Ah, I see, Australia flies the Union Jack just to signify it was at one time part of the British Empire. Became a Commonweal in 1901. Wikipedia is good for something.
As far as ethanol, I can tell you few here in the USA are worried about it. If you have a marine or small engine, you use an additive and take a few other precautions.
By contrast with KC's article, Nick Ienatsch's piece was replete with causes, effects, and solutions to the presence of ethanol. It was informative, helpful, and non-judgmental, utterly lacking in geopolitics.
I've been reading both for over 30 years and I like very much where Mr. Ienatsch has landed. He's a fiesty character and deeply values his sport, and has the broken (and healed) bones to show for it.
I would just also say that Nick's articles cut to the chase and very helpful to riders, where Kevin's work has become nearly 100 percent esoteric.
I read both of them with equal interest.
:beerchug:
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
Thread starter
ChipBeck_imp
Road warrior
Gentlemen,Ulvetanna_imp said:
I've been a gas and oil dealer for decades for Chevron, ARCO, and Shell as well as one of the largest independent E-85 dealers in Arizona and I completely disagree with the above statement. Far from being absurd in the extreme Kevin's opinion is shared by top management at major oil companies and by me. Good grief man, America is the worlds bread basket and the largest producer of grains for export to other areas of the world. We pass a stupid law mandating the use of corn to make our gasoline less efficient, a mandate that uses up 40% of all the corn grown in this country. Corn prices are much higher as a result and the price of many food staples in the underdeveloped world doubles and triples in some areas. An extreme hardship for people who spend 80+% if their income just to feed themselves. This isn't an opinion, it's a verifiable fact. Do you think the laws of supply and demand that determine prices wont respond to a mandate that swallows such a massive share of U.S. farm production? Ethanol is bad for everybody who isn't a farmer worldwide. It unquestionably raises food prices and Kevin Cameron is right on. A little more thorough research on anybodies part will lead them to the same conclusion. Cheers.
Chip
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
Thread starter
Gentlemen,ChipBeck_imp said:
I've been a gas and oil dealer for decades for Chevron, ARCO, and Shell as well as one of the largest independent E-85 dealers in Arizona and I completely disagree with the above statement. Far from being absurd in the extreme Kevin's opinion is shared by top management at major oil companies and by me. Good grief man, America is the worlds bread basket and the largest producer of grains for export to other areas of the world. We pass a stupid law mandating the use of corn to make our gasoline less efficient, a mandate that uses up 40% of all the corn grown in this country. Corn prices are much higher as a result and the price of many food staples in the underdeveloped world doubles and triples in some areas. An extreme hardship for people who spend 80+% if their income just to feed themselves. This isn't an opinion, it's a verifiable fact. Do you think the laws of supply and demand that determine prices wont respond to a mandate that swallows such a massive share of U.S. farm production? Ethanol is bad for everybody who isn't a farmer worldwide. It unquestionably raises food prices and Kevin Cameron is right on. A little more thorough research on anybodies part will lead them to the same conclusion. Cheers.
Chip Just for the record, I think ethanol as a fuel is fine in its place. Adding it to gasoline to create an environmental blend, no, I disagree with that policy.
But the moral argument is only suggested by Cameron at the very end of the editorial. And he himself presents not the slightest shred of evidence that would convince anyone. It is one thing to propose something, and another to cite sources and references to support that proposition. Today it is easy to say "Google it!" which is the lazy writer's solution, but what do we find on Google? Propaganda? Half-truths? Solid, reliable sources are there but citations would have been very helpful.
Most of Cameron's article seems to be weighted toward the concerns of manufacturers in selecting the proper components, or consumers in avoiding ethanol-rated trouble. It is only in the few last paragraphs where he becomes political. Starving people in third-world countries are easy to use as a rationale for doing just about anything, or changing just about any policy. That is why when I see this used by Mr. Cameron, I raise an eyebrow.
However, all that said, farming, like oil and gas production, is a complicated business. I was in that line for while myself. Oil and gas are in some respect at odds with farming, even at loggerheads in some cases.
I personally found it interesting that anyone in the motorsports journalism line would reach for the moral high ground in recommending the discontinuation of ethanol as a fuel additive because it causes people to starve. It is a strange and unexpected argument from that corner.
I myself would like to see fuels reduced to "E-Zero" and get back to 100 percent gasoline but, like any other top-tier issue (this is big-time energy and politics) it's going to take some time to sort out.
What is going to need to happen is that ethanol -- like wind and solar -- is going to prove a failure as a method of renewable energy, and then the programs, like so many farming subsidies and other agricultural policies long-defunct, will simply fade away.
All that said, this is exactly why I continue to look forward to Mr. Cameron's work, sketchy, non-commital, and esoteric though it may be.
It stimulates discussion. :beerchug:
Here are some decent resources to begin a bit of research, for what they may be worth.
Debunking Biofuels: Do They Really Raise Food Prices?
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel]Ethanol as fuel
[url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil]Ethanol fuel in Brazil
the Ferret
Road warrior
This is not a new subject/discussion here and proponents on each side never seems to change their mind, and don't expect that they will in this thread either.
For the record 10% ethanol is approved for use in the CB1100's and all Hondas 2 wheeled and 4 wheeled I believe.
For the record 10% ethanol is approved for use in the CB1100's and all Hondas 2 wheeled and 4 wheeled I believe.
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
Thread starter
Well-said. Just my quick Bing search revealed scores of hits pontificating on both sides of the issue. But then again, that was exactly what Mr. Cameron had in mind when he wrote his article, so if a few inquiring minds learn a thing or three, so much the better.The ferret_imp said:
What I get from all this, based on Cameron's comments, is that ethanol is primarily a dogfight between farmers (it can be made from many other crops besides corn), and big oil. It really is not a serious issue at the consumer level.
-Big Oil says the farmers are causing children to starve because food prices go up.
-Big Farming and Big Government say using fossil fuels wrecks the environment and exploits people all over the world.
I say that I like low energy costs, clean fuels, and a clean environment. Whatever gets us there, I'll vote for the man or woman who is most likely to get that job done.
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
Thread starter
There are a fair number of comments after Cameron's article that make for a quick read and have some good points to make. It is apparently creating a bit of a stir.
A couple of good points, which my research and personal experience supports:
-Gasoline will evaporate and gum up jets just as well as ethanol blends. I've had to clean up quite a few carbs that became gummed up and it was poor-quality gasoline to blame. When I switched fuels, the problem resolved. Any fuel will degrade, even racing fuel with zero ethanol. Use a fuel stabilizer if the vehicle is to be stored for any length of time. Top-tier fuels already have additives to prevent this. My F800GS is very sensitive to fuels; I noticed it cold-starts harder if I use an off-brand. My other bikes don't seem to care.
-Agriculture uses hydrocarbon resources, so the net energy loss chain in the production of plant-based ethanol is not likely to be any more efficient than the refinement of petroleum.
Just scroll to the bottom of the article, past the ads, and clock on the comments icon.
A couple of good points, which my research and personal experience supports:
-Gasoline will evaporate and gum up jets just as well as ethanol blends. I've had to clean up quite a few carbs that became gummed up and it was poor-quality gasoline to blame. When I switched fuels, the problem resolved. Any fuel will degrade, even racing fuel with zero ethanol. Use a fuel stabilizer if the vehicle is to be stored for any length of time. Top-tier fuels already have additives to prevent this. My F800GS is very sensitive to fuels; I noticed it cold-starts harder if I use an off-brand. My other bikes don't seem to care.
-Agriculture uses hydrocarbon resources, so the net energy loss chain in the production of plant-based ethanol is not likely to be any more efficient than the refinement of petroleum.
Just scroll to the bottom of the article, past the ads, and clock on the comments icon.
NightRider_imp
Been there
[Quote:For the record 10% ethanol is approved for use in the CB1100's
I worry about water in my tank and then rust using ethanol. Is that unreasonable?
I worry about water in my tank and then rust using ethanol. Is that unreasonable?
the Ferret
Road warrior
If you are really concerned there are fuel stabilizers made specifically for ethanol fuels to isolate, or disperse ( not really sure) any moisture in ethanol fuels.
Personally I dont worry about it, but my bikes don't sit very long. From Nov to March I do use SEafoam in my tanks in case of a string of bad weather causes me to let them sit for any length of time.
Personally I dont worry about it, but my bikes don't sit very long. From Nov to March I do use SEafoam in my tanks in case of a string of bad weather causes me to let them sit for any length of time.
Stichill
Road warrior
Me too. I also try to keep the tank topped up to minimize internal condensation as the temperature and humidity in my unheated garage go up and down randomly.The ferret_imp said:
