Macross_imp
First service completed
Thread starter
Honda CBR600RR is no more
- Thread starter Macross_imp
- Start date
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
The CBR600RR and CBR1000RR are both antiques. No wonder they can't meet current standards.Macross_imp said:
If you look at the SP model of the Fireblade you can see where additional sound control was added in the form of plastic covers on the lower engine. Due to the added power, which really wasn't much.
The problem is a redesign of the entire motorcycle. They will need a different engine, with different internals which can deaden noise from gears and combustion. The water jacket design and the design of the gears and chains inside the engine are critical. The transmission will require a complete redesign. This is an old, old motorcycle. My CB1100 is more advanced, and I am not kidding, the tech on that bike is superior in terms of design and manufacture.
Everyone else is making a bike that can be sold and meets standards, and moreover, those bikes are more powerful and lighter than the Honda. GSX-R 600/750 are class-leading to this day and very light/powerful. R6, good bike, fast, powerful, legal.
Honda has dropped the ball on their sportbike line and they now offer antiques. Full analog bikes.
Instead of putting Ohlins suspension on the Fireblade and calling it special they should have put the time into designing an all-new bike. That, to me, was just about like being stuck on stupid. How many street riders need full Ohlins on that bike? Zero. How many guys are buying that bike to race, where the Ohlins might be useful. Zero.
And now they cut the 600? Honda, what the heck are you doing?
Capo's playing complete the sentence. My offering:
... suspense is killing me?
... suspense is killing me?
Papa Weeley_imp
Road warrior
That's a real shame. There are a lot of sportbike riders that vastly prefer the 600 class over the liter-bikes. The 600RR was an immensely popular model in that class here, in Japan, and in the UK, due to its speed, packaging and scalpel-like, predictable, and almost intuitive handling, and of course, Honda quality and dependability.
This is almost beyond my comprehension that Honda would let this bike - and this kind following - just die by the side of the road.
This is almost beyond my comprehension that Honda would let this bike - and this kind following - just die by the side of the road.
The story from the link in the OP tells more about the practice of building street bikes that are really designed for racing purposes - which may be reaching a point of diminishing returns. Honda's heritage springs as much from the Super Cub as the CBR600 - though both are important. They're just the first to accurately read the tea leaves. Maybe supersport/superbike racing should be based on ready-to-race units, or kits, built to a price rather than "street" bikes hopped up under a strict rules regime?
Also, the assault in the ICE is progressing rapidly. Modern ICE machines, clean as they have become, are more frequently viewed as nasty and "anti-environmental". As "green" alternatives become more viable, carbon ICE-based transportation will become almost antisocial.
Also, the assault in the ICE is progressing rapidly. Modern ICE machines, clean as they have become, are more frequently viewed as nasty and "anti-environmental". As "green" alternatives become more viable, carbon ICE-based transportation will become almost antisocial.
LongRanger_imp
Road warrior
I think it's a nod to fashion (read:ADV). Just think how much R&D money went into the CBR line over the past two decades, not to mention the cost of supporting their racing effort. I'm guessing if Honda felt they could still make money selling these bikes, they would. Stunned, like the rest of you.
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
Funny this is even a thread here, not many sportos on this forum. The CBR600RR is a vintage motorcycle as is the CBR1000RR. Neither is the slightest bit competitive anywhere, either racing or for a track day or street-oriented sportbike. They are slow, and have no electronics. The big fun in modern superbikes is the traction control, you can really get on the stick early and blast around, and they are rocketships in a straight line. The CBR1000RR is very slow, and feels slow, compared to any other superbike. The CBR600RR is even worse off, it's slow, and just doesn't have any feature that would sell it other than the Honda badge.
For example, you have the Kawasaki Ninja 636, with traction control and great 600-class engine with a nice meaty bottom end and excellent handling. Triumph makes its 675 triple Daytona, not a good racebike but a great streetbike, gutsy and handles really well on the tight stuff. Then of course, the GSX-R 600/750 and the YZF-R6, all class-leading, feature-rich motorcycles in zero danger of extinction. Ducati has its 899, and so on.
Honda have got to revamp their entire sportbike line. And they will. Who remembers the advent of the Hurricanes? Completely upset the balance of power. You never see them on the road anymore, most of them were crashed, but they crushed the competition and the 600 Hurricane was the pre-eminent production roadracer for some time.
Whatever Honda have got coming it will be good, very good. Because what they have got now is not very good at all.
For example, you have the Kawasaki Ninja 636, with traction control and great 600-class engine with a nice meaty bottom end and excellent handling. Triumph makes its 675 triple Daytona, not a good racebike but a great streetbike, gutsy and handles really well on the tight stuff. Then of course, the GSX-R 600/750 and the YZF-R6, all class-leading, feature-rich motorcycles in zero danger of extinction. Ducati has its 899, and so on.
Honda have got to revamp their entire sportbike line. And they will. Who remembers the advent of the Hurricanes? Completely upset the balance of power. You never see them on the road anymore, most of them were crashed, but they crushed the competition and the 600 Hurricane was the pre-eminent production roadracer for some time.
Whatever Honda have got coming it will be good, very good. Because what they have got now is not very good at all.
All new Fireblade coming in 2017, with all the electronics. As for the 600 being slow, it is still one of the most sublime handling machines ever made, and while long in the tooth, is still, in the right hands, capable of outstanding performance. And the entire Moto 2 series is powered by the CBR 600 engine.
The Fireblade took multiple TT podiums this year and won outright in the 2015 senior. It's a fantastic road bike.
New Fireblade to rule the roads
The Fireblade took multiple TT podiums this year and won outright in the 2015 senior. It's a fantastic road bike.
New Fireblade to rule the roads
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
Looking forward to the new CBR1000RR; some say a V4 may be in the works.Capo_imp said:
Nobody cares about handling; well, almost nobody. They care about power and weight. I care about handling, that's why two of my favorite bikes are extinct. FZR400 and Hawk GT.
However, Yamaha's FZ-07 and the new FZ10 tend to channel some of these bike's best features. The FZ-07 has the light weight, and the FZ10 has almost identical geometry to the FZR400, rake/trail/wheelbase.
I do wonder how the FZ10 is going to work with all that power in such a tight chassis. But then again the GSX-R 750 is even tighter and is a wonder.
Lunatic Fringe_imp
First service completed
Wow give me some of what you've been smoking. Antique, slow? Seriously? Those are words I could see fitting a cb1100 because it is designed to emulate the early air cooled CB series but even a 10 year old cbr600/1000 can hold it's own on the street or track against any sport bike with the latest electronic crutches.Ulvetanna_imp said:
Absolutely disagree that the cbr600/1000 feels slow on the street. Not sure which cbr you've ridden on the street or raced on the track but if you have actually done either there is no way a cbr 600/1000 is gonna be categorized as slow.
I don't hold a racing license, just a guy that's been around for a long time riding the street mainly throughout california's mountains and canyons. In the real world the fastest riders I've seen on the street or track are on either older Honda and Suzuki SS bikes with no rider aids whatsoever.
Not sure how fast you wanna go, especially on the street, but if you feel you can't get it done on a cbr600/1000 it's likely not the bike.
Papa Weeley_imp
Road warrior
I don't know...I guess you can just call me "old school", or something, but I feel like all of those electronic goodies are just babysitting devices. Personally, I LIKED to slide the rear end around in corners (much as I did/do in cars), and if I want to pop up the front end, I'd like to be able to do it on demand, without having to switch off TC, etc., first. To me - unless you're a world-class rider, of course, and/or are always tracking your bike - the electronics seem to just be there to keep any yahoo from overstepping his skill-limit and getting into trouble. And constantly re-adjusting this and that as you ride, often having to actually come to a stop along the way to allow the changed setting? Sorry, not for me. I'll never be a Kenny Roberts, or a Marc Marquez these days, by a long shot, and even though I was a pretty decent rider in my younger days (by my own accountUlvetanna_imp said:
), I certainly wasn't then, either. BUT, I really recognized and enjoyed the connection of rider-to-bike-to-road. Feeling the tires start to squirm in a corner, the miniscule degrees of counter-steering at the bars, the compression of the suspension, the minute adjustment in steering by sliding around in the saddle as speeds increased and decreased in corners...it's a mechanical connection that thrills me to the core; I don't want one of isolating, electrical, and safety control. Maybe now that I'm an aging rider that values comfort over the sporting details that I loved so much in my younger days, I'll someday grow to value that kind of thing, but for now, no thanks.
And I fully understand that not sliding, and that putting power down more efficiently, etc., makes for faster times around a racetrack, but I buy bikes for the street, and the main reason I buy motorcycles is to have FUN. I liked that about the CBRs, in a sea of other electronically-controlled sportbikes. I really don't think of that more simplistic Honda approach as a negative; in fact, anything but. I've heard all of the facts and arguments - all valid, mind you - but this remains my own, albeit subjective, opinion.
I've certainly got to agree with you there on all counts...and sounds like we've got a very similar background.Lunatic Fringe_imp said:
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
No reason to requote everyone, essentially this is a response to Papa Weeley's sense of the state of electronic rider aids, as well as Lunatic Fringe's suggestion I don't know how to ride particularly well.
To Papa, I say, I felt exactly the same way you did until I actually purchased a state-of-the-art superbike and put 7,000 miles on it. During that same period I put in a lot of track days on my 2012 GSX-R 750 (that's the latest generation), which is a track-only bike.
The traction control Kawasaki has developed is excellent, and it allows a bike with 205 crankshaft HP (in the EU) to be ridden quite aggressively with a great deal of confidence. Ironically, modern superbikes actually are more fun to ride on the street than on the track; the smaller bikes, like the 600 class supersports, handle better. But the literbikes are big, big fun on the road.
I am not talking top speed, anyone can hold a throttle open. I'm talking that nice drive out of slow or medium-speed turn, combined with good handling and excellent brakes.
I rode for many years in the dirt, with many thumpers and also a CR250R motocross bike with no engine braking to speak of and 50 HP at the crankshaft, in a 205-lb motorcycle. I know what you mean when you talk about having the rear get a bit loose. Tires today don't allow that. The grip is superb. They don't get "greasy" like they did 20 years ago. They just grip and grip until they let go quite suddenly.
This works hand-in-hand with the big HP and traction control of modern literbikes. Some, like the R1/S1000RR/ZX-10R/Panigale/RSV1000, have slide control, allowing some degree of slip angle. With these interventions these bikes would be all but unrideable, most are putting out about 190 HP to the rear wheel in stock form. Who can control that consistently and reliably in a slide? No one, that's why we have the computers.
As far as the other query, I do hold a racing license, and I know how fast I wanna go. As fast as I can: but only on the racetrack.
[attachment=4879]
Interesting article about this.
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/honda-cbr600rr-discontinued/
To Papa, I say, I felt exactly the same way you did until I actually purchased a state-of-the-art superbike and put 7,000 miles on it. During that same period I put in a lot of track days on my 2012 GSX-R 750 (that's the latest generation), which is a track-only bike.
The traction control Kawasaki has developed is excellent, and it allows a bike with 205 crankshaft HP (in the EU) to be ridden quite aggressively with a great deal of confidence. Ironically, modern superbikes actually are more fun to ride on the street than on the track; the smaller bikes, like the 600 class supersports, handle better. But the literbikes are big, big fun on the road.
I am not talking top speed, anyone can hold a throttle open. I'm talking that nice drive out of slow or medium-speed turn, combined with good handling and excellent brakes.
I rode for many years in the dirt, with many thumpers and also a CR250R motocross bike with no engine braking to speak of and 50 HP at the crankshaft, in a 205-lb motorcycle. I know what you mean when you talk about having the rear get a bit loose. Tires today don't allow that. The grip is superb. They don't get "greasy" like they did 20 years ago. They just grip and grip until they let go quite suddenly.
This works hand-in-hand with the big HP and traction control of modern literbikes. Some, like the R1/S1000RR/ZX-10R/Panigale/RSV1000, have slide control, allowing some degree of slip angle. With these interventions these bikes would be all but unrideable, most are putting out about 190 HP to the rear wheel in stock form. Who can control that consistently and reliably in a slide? No one, that's why we have the computers.
As far as the other query, I do hold a racing license, and I know how fast I wanna go. As fast as I can: but only on the racetrack.
[attachment=4879]
Interesting article about this.
http://www.asphaltandrubber.com/bikes/honda-cbr600rr-discontinued/
bravo on you Sir no chicken strips! but posting a picture like this to prove something reminds me of guys up in the rock store or new combs ranch checking for chicken strips on rear tires on other bikes. a bit immature and doesn't validate anything but....
there are active members on here that are still into modern sport bikes or at least use to be and also use to be amateur racers, road racers or enthusiasts like myself but I don't recall them being cocky or even mentioning how good they are on two wheels to get a point accross when it comes to topics of the technical side.
One thing that makes absolutely no sense to me Is that you say that modern sports bike are more fun on the street than on the track?
that statement is just wrong.
sorry everyone but that photo just irks me
there are active members on here that are still into modern sport bikes or at least use to be and also use to be amateur racers, road racers or enthusiasts like myself but I don't recall them being cocky or even mentioning how good they are on two wheels to get a point accross when it comes to topics of the technical side.
One thing that makes absolutely no sense to me Is that you say that modern sports bike are more fun on the street than on the track?
that statement is just wrong.
sorry everyone but that photo just irks me
kmoney_imp
Road warrior
None of the modern 1000s puts out 190hp at the wheel. People thought the s1000rr was nuts when it laid down 183 and it leads the pack by far. I've seen dyno runs of new RSV4 that barely break into the 170s.
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
lol i get it but first let me be clear this is my track only bikelola_imp said:
this was not done on a public road nor do i ever go to places such as you mention for quite a long time
i could post images of my knee sliders too if anyone wants to see them lol
many of the very frequent posters here have put up long lists of the number of bikes owned and what kind of exotic places they travel and what sort of fine food they eat how many years riding and so on
i like that stuff although i don't do much touring myself any longer and i say more power to anyone to do the kind of riding they love to do
track riding is not often discussed here at the cb1100forum but some few of us do it and have done for a long time
also quite a number of pictures of riders showing the chicken strips or lack thereof so i do not think i am out of line here
if there is a rule about this please let me know moderators lol
as far as size matters, fun is in the experience of the beholder
many guys i track with run literbikes but most run 600-750 class and many also run 300 class
the smaller displacement bikes handle much better and actually post better lap times at most tracks
here is a very good article about this whole deal
the great news is honda are coming with a v4 as well as inline four superbike
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
to kmoney
check your current dyno charts regarding superbike rwhp
190 rwhp is no problem with any current super with reflash and pipe
stock zx10r makes over 180 with Guhls reflash at the rear wheel[attachment=4988]
check your current dyno charts regarding superbike rwhp
190 rwhp is no problem with any current super with reflash and pipe
stock zx10r makes over 180 with Guhls reflash at the rear wheel[attachment=4988]
redbirds_imp
Road warrior
I don't know what the sales figures are outside my part of the country, but sport bike sales are way down here. A few years back most bikes sold here were cruisers and sport bikes. The cruisers still sell but sport bike sales are waning fast and those seeking a sport bike want the fastest so the 600 class is overlooked. It will be interesting to see if Yamaha, Kawasaki and Suzuki decide to follow Honda.
Ulvetanna_imp
Road warrior
I would remark that this seems to be very true in this locale as well.redbirds_imp said:
My local dealer is providing enormous incentives on many of the 600-class sportbikes on their showroom floor. These are in the range of $3,000 to $4,000 per bike.
They are clearly trying to move these bikes out of the dealership. On the other hand, the Adventure Bike and Cruiser categories are expanding rapidly.
The 600-class just does not make any sense at this juncture. The 300-class bikes are selling very well, as are middleweight standards such as the FZ-07.
Personal finances have likely played a key role in this. The insurance and maintenance costs on the 600's are prohibitive when combined with the very high selling price.
