HELP GAUGE REMOVAL /CUSTOM TACH

[PowerDubs_imp]

YM,

I going to say no. A quick look at the wiring diagrams shows that the ‘14 speed sensor goes to the tach as VSP+ and -. On the Deluxe, the front and rear speed sensors go to the ABS modulator. The tach does not have VSP inputs.

Where does it go after the ABS module though?

Would seem silly and unlikely for Honda to produce different gauge / dash internals for the DLX. I'd guess they would have just swapped face plates and needles to a different color. Even if the wiring diagram doesn't show the pinout for unused pathways.

I'd also like to think that they would have made the ABS parts all plug and play from one bike to the other as well, once all the parts are acquired.

 

[Lord Popgun]

On the wiring diagram and in the service manual section 15 it shows both wheel sensors going to the ABS modulator. (Deluxe model diagrams)

There are 2 outputs from the modulator to the meter. The ABS IND which lights the ABS light, and a signal called PRO. At the meter input it is labeled SP IN. So that has to be speed input.

The ECU gets the wheel speed from the meter via the serial data line.

2010-2013 models did not have a serial data line. Honda started that in 2014. So, different meters. And the ‘14 std and ‘14 dlx have different meters, going by the wiring diagrams, and bike wiring to the meters.

 

[pekingduck]

"Just get aftermarket gauges," said several people to me, "oem are $$$."

I have a broken tach and this thread has been super-helpful! Many thanks. Some of you went the extra miles for sure.

2014 std

Will a 14 dlx assembly work on a std? I'd like green faces if I can swing it.

Curious what is broken on the tach. Is it only the white housing, or the face and needle? Pics would help.

 

[Cormanus]

Popgun, I thought the question was whether a DLX gauge would work on a 2014 STD. Does the STD have the serial data line?

 

[Lord Popgun]

OK, looking at the ‘14 std diagram. Yes, it has the serial data line. That started in ‘14

BUT, it shows the wheel sensor going directly into the meter on the VSP+ and VSP- lines. That is 2 lines, not one like the ABS model Deluxe. So I apparently a different meter for ABS and non-ABS models.

 

[pekingduck]

OK, looking at the ‘14 std diagram. Yes, it has the serial data line. That started in ‘14

BUT, it shows the wheel sensor going directly into the meter on the VSP+ and VSP- lines. That is 2 lines, not one like the ABS model Deluxe. So I apparently a different meter for ABS and non-ABS models.

One reason is that the ABS version will have the indicator on the dash. Certainly don't want an ABS indicator on a non-ABS bike either.

 

[max]

Popgun is correct, the pulse shape now looks just like in his video clip.



The difference is whether the engine is running whilst the wheel is spinning

There is a way to check the sensor with a dc voltmeter, connect the voltmeter positive to the blue wire and the negative to the white wire.
When the ignition is on and engine off the voltmeter indicates two voltages between the wires, either 9 volt dc or 7 volt dc depending on the position of the wheel.
When it is rotated slowly and stopped in various positions the meter alternates between these two values when stopped, if this happens the sensor works correctly.

Also the voltage is positive with respect to the frame ground but the white negative wire has + 0.7 volts ( v b/e of a transistor ) with respect to ground, so it is not grounded as i first thought and my wires connect to the instrument cluster, not the abs module.

Sorry about the jabbering on but someone might find it helpful I hope; cheers.

 

[Cormanus]

Thanks gentlemen.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Popgun is correct, the pulse shape now looks just like in his video clip.



The difference is whether the engine is running whilst the wheel is spinning

There is a way to check the sensor with a dc voltmeter, connect the voltmeter positive to the blue wire and the negative to the white wire.
When the ignition is on and engine off the voltmeter indicates two voltages between the wires, either 9 volt dc or 7 volt dc depending on the position of the wheel.
When it is rotated slowly and stopped in various positions the meter alternates between these two values when stopped, if this happens the sensor works correctly.

Also the voltage is positive with respect to the frame ground but the white negative wire has + 0.7 volts ( v b/e of a transistor ) with respect to ground, so it is not grounded as i first thought and my wires connect to the instrument cluster, not the abs module.

Sorry about the jabbering on but someone might find it helpful I hope; cheers.

I like the waveforms you and PG have been providing.

 

[ymtnpoah11_imp]

"Just get aftermarket gauges," said several people to me, "oem are $$$."

I have a broken tach and this thread has been super-helpful! Many thanks. Some of you went the extra miles for sure.

2014 std

Will a 14 dlx assembly work on a std? I'd like green faces if I can swing it.

Curious what is broken on the tach. Is it only the white housing, or the face and needle? Pics would help.

Curious what is broken on the tach. Is it only the white housing, or the face and needle? Pics would help.

(I'd share pics if I knew how here) It's the entire tach, obliterated into pieces in a wreck.

OK, looking at the ‘14 std diagram. Yes, it has the serial data line. That started in ‘14

BUT, it shows the wheel sensor going directly into the meter on the VSP+ and VSP- lines. That is 2 lines, not one like the ABS model Deluxe. So I apparently a different meter for ABS and non-ABS models.

One reason is that the ABS version will have the indicator on the dash. Certainly don't want an ABS indicator on a non-ABS bike either.

One reason is that the ABS version will have the indicator on the dash. Certainly don't want an ABS indicator on a non-ABS bike either.

SOLID point! Thank you!

And the irony - if I'd had ABS to begin with, the tach might not be wrecked at all!

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

OK, looking at the ‘14 std diagram. Yes, it has the serial data line. That started in ‘14

BUT, it shows the wheel sensor going directly into the meter on the VSP+ and VSP- lines. That is 2 lines, not one like the ABS model Deluxe. So I apparently a different meter for ABS and non-ABS models.

One reason is that the ABS version will have the indicator on the dash. Certainly don't want an ABS indicator on a non-ABS bike either.

So when I get a chance to head back to my garage, I will take a light and shine it at my 14 standard and see if I can see an ABS spot on the indicator, not saying it would ever light up but it would not surprise me to see it there.


One of my cars has an option for an upgraded stereo, and literally the only difference is the amplifier itself. The plugs on the amplifier are physically the same shape but the pin out is different. All someone needs to do is buy the upgraded amplifier out of a wrecked car, like eBay and change the pin position in the wiring harness which is easy to do if you have the tool. The interesting thing is that the Radiohead unit automatically recognizes the different amp being plugged in and changes its own software behavior inside and gives new options in the settings and EQ for the upgraded stereo without needing to change anything again other than the actual amplifier and pin locations in the wiring harness.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tommymck]

The timescale on max's post wasn't displayed, but on popgun's display, the frequency of the waveform looks significantly higher than the spatial frequency of the holes in the disk. I'm assuming then that the holes have nothing to do with rotation detection and that it's something magnetic?

 

[Lord Popgun]

The sensor is an inductive sensor. The holes don't cause an output, the metal bar between the holes do.

Here is a link that shows and explains how they work: https://cecas.clemson.edu/cvel/auto/sensors/vehicle-speed.html

I think Max mentioned that if you take a sensor and connect it to a meter (an analog one works great) and wave a screwdriver by the sensor head, you will see the needle move. I've done on many times on an Chevy crankshaft position sensor I have laying around.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

The implementation could probably be made more robust if hall-effect sensors were used. The implementation could be more resistant to environment encoder contamination and impairment due to misalignment. However, the cost would go up a bit.

 

[Tev62]

The sensor is an inductive sensor. The holes don't cause an output, the metal bar between the holes do.

Here is a link that shows and explains how they work: https://cecas.clemson.edu/cvel/auto/sensors/vehicle-speed.html

I think Max mentioned that if you take a sensor and connect it to a meter (an analog one works great) and wave a screwdriver by the sensor head, you will see the needle move. I've done on many times on an Chevy crankshaft position sensor I have laying around.

The 90's Triumph's used these inductive sensors as a crankshaft position sensor (CPS). They caught many owners out in that they would fail when hot, conking out the bike. After 20-30 minutes they would cool down and work again allowing the owner to start the bike. A lot of head scratching followed?

If an owner did suspect the CPS you could easily test them by seeing if they were within the specified impedance range. All it took was a simple test with a cheap multimeter. Of course you usually tested when you got home after the bike had cooled and they always passed with flying colours.

I dread to think how many owners ripped the fuel lines and carbs apart looking for fuelling problems. These days the issue is so well known I would say almost every 90's Triumph owners has a spare one in their tool box box.

 

[peterbaron]

If an engine has a healthy crank and does not fire, I always do these in this order:
*1 first, check for spark
*2 then, check for fuel
Diagnosis is almost completed.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

The sensor is an inductive sensor. The holes don't cause an output, the metal bar between the holes do.

Here is a link that shows and explains how they work: https://cecas.clemson.edu/cvel/auto/sensors/vehicle-speed.html

I think Max mentioned that if you take a sensor and connect it to a meter (an analog one works great) and wave a screwdriver by the sensor head, you will see the needle move. I've done on many times on an Chevy crankshaft position sensor I have laying around.

The 90's Triumph's used these inductive sensors as a crankshaft position sensor (CPS). They caught many owners out in that they would fail when hot, conking out the bike. After 20-30 minutes they would cool down and work again allowing the owner to start the bike. A lot of head scratching followed?

If an owner did suspect the CPS you could easily test them by seeing if they were within the specified impedance range. All it took was a simple test with a cheap multimeter. Of course you usually tested when you got home after the bike had cooled and they always passed with flying colours.

I dread to think how many owners ripped the fuel lines and carbs apart looking for fuelling problems. These days the issue is so well known I would say almost every 90's Triumph owners has a spare one in their tool box box.

The 90's Triumph's used these inductive sensors as a crankshaft position sensor (CPS). They caught many owners out in that they would fail when hot, conking out the bike. After 20-30 minutes they would cool down and work again allowing the owner to start the bike. A lot of head scratching followed?

If an owner did suspect the CPS you could easily test them by seeing if they were within the specified impedance range. All it took was a simple test with a cheap multimeter. Of course you usually tested when you got home after the bike had cooled and they always passed with flying colours.

I dread to think how many owners ripped the fuel lines and carbs apart looking for fuelling problems. These days the issue is so well known I would say almost every 90's Triumph owners has a spare one in their tool box box.
Sounds similar to some GM vehicle sensors I knew that failed below 5C. The sensor would be packed in epoxy and when it got down to a certain temperature (e.g. below 5C), an embedded component would "open" and fail the [security] module and the fuel pump would not start. For the owner, it would be a surprise in the winter.

Suggestive: If the issue is random, it is mostly likely an electrical issue. If the issue is temperature dependent, then it is a mechanical issue - typically affecting an electrical component like a plastic connector.