Front brakes squeal...this feels like a saga in the making

[VLJ_imp]

I took my '17 EX in today for a warranty-repair service for the front brakes, which squeal every time I come to a slow, gradual stop. Unfortunately, it was pouring down rain this morning, so the dealership said there was nothing they could do today since they can't ride it in the rain. Also, with the pads and rotors and everything being so wet, they wouldn't be able to see anything anyway.

He offered to clean the pads and rotors, no charge.

The first rather ominous sign that this might turn into a long, drawn-out saga is when he presented a repair order showing a $109 charge, which he explained wouldn't come into play today, but could come into play whenever they can get a dry day and a proper look into the problem. He said, "Honda doesn't warranty noises, which they consider to be a symptom of normal wear and tear. There has to be a manufacturer's defect in the parts or construction before Honda will cover something under warranty."

Uhhh, no. "Noises" that shouldn't be there are generally good indicators that something is amiss, and a case of squealing brakes a week or two into a bike's life (which is when my brakes started squealing) is definitely not an example of "normal wear and tear."

He also wondered whether the original dealership failed to clean off the Cosmoline from the rotors during the Pre-Delivery Inspection process. He had no reason to suspect this, he admitted. He was simply offering up possible causes.

Checking the weather, it shows the possibility of rain every day for the next couple of weeks, so we won't be able to address this issue again for a decent while. During the ride home the front brakes were still squealing. Cleaning the pads and rotors didn't fix the problem.

 

[Inhouse Bob]

Sorry you are having an issue. Mine have always squeaked a bit when using the breaks lightly. It goes away when I brake a bit more aggressively. Mine is a 13 with about 11k on it. Original pads still have a lot of life left.

 

[johnf514_imp]

VLJ, I think you're doing the right thing here. I know some folks might not think this is a major issue, but if the squealing is as significant as you describe, it could be indicative of an ongoing issue with the bike. And your ride is brand new, so there is no reason for this.

Honda makes quality products, and their service should follow suit. You just may have to lean on them a bit.

 

[Acrobat_imp]

That is disappointing VLJ. First I thought you arranged this service with the dealer you've bought the bike but even so what an unprofessional way to deal with a customer..
They said ok, this first attempt will be free, but make no mistake, if you want us deal with it and solve your problem, you'll have to pay.
Also , what is this cosmoline thing you mentioned?
There is always an anticorrosion agent applied on break disks before delivery, but you don't have to wash it of as far as I know.
Honda don't warranted noises. I liked that. I'll try to contact my friends here at Honda to check their reactions.

Like you said, a saga in the making...

 

[emptysea]

I think your dealer was, at best, over-simplifying Honda's warranty provisions if he said "Honda doesn't warranty noises, which they consider to be a symptom of normal wear and tear. There has to be a manufacturer's defect in the parts or construction before Honda will cover something under warranty." Honda doesn't warranty "symptoms". They warranty mechanical failures and defects. Yes, they exclude wear/tear items so your brake pads are not covered -- unless they wore due to a defect. As you and John already stated, squeaky breaks are not normal on a new bike and could be indicative of a problem that IS covered by warranty. Weather has conspired against you in getting to the bottom of this, but I think you will have to push your guy a little harder on the issue of warranty, maybe even find your copy of it and read it carefully so you can explain to him what his obligations are. I suspect that if they can't make the brake issue go away over the next 200-300 miles, that some tech guy from Honda (not the dealership) will need to look at the bike.

In the meantime, as long as your bike performs safely for you, push those earplugs in deep and keep riding!

 

[VLJ_imp]

johnf514, I wouldn't really describe the squealing as all that significant. I've certainly heard worse. On my bike it only does it a little, and only at the very conclusion of a gradual stop. The brakes work just fine.

Still, the brakes shouldn't squeal, period, and there is no way for Honda to shift the blame for this issue onto the customer, not on a two-week-old bike.

Acrobat, Cosmoline is a greasy anti-corrosive product applied by the manufacturers to most new bikes. Cosmoline is the source of the "new-bike smell" that everyone loves. It's also the source of the fine smoke you see coming off of a running motor on new bikes.

EmptySea, while Honda might claim that squeaky brakes aren't a problem, and the parts aren't defective, the fact that they're squealing is a clear indication of a fault somewhere in the system, even if it's just a mismatch between the pad compound and the rotor. It can be the result of any number of things, really.

The new Triumph T120 suffered from the same issue, until Triumph addressed it for the 2018 model with the addition of this rubber spacer placed behind the rotor...

Here is the previous model year, sans the new rubber damper...

 

[dbarkdoll_imp]

FWIW (prob nothing) my rear brake squeaks just a tad every so often under normal braking. Not enough to cause major concern for me. If it were my front brakes which I use much more frequently, it might though.

 

[VLJ_imp]

It doesn't cause me major concern, but it is a major irritant. It's the only flaw in an otherwise perfect bike.

 

[Obleo]

2013 standard here front brakes have squealed since I bought it with 4500 miles on the clock. Don't much care for it,but think it's the nature of the beast. Maybe Honda purposely built them like this so you know your brakes are working.

 

[Chunk_imp]

VLJ, Thank you for sharing the Triumph pics. Interesting "solution". That has to mean that shims on the pads didn't do the trick.
I am experiencing the same condition and have been waiting for someone here who has the time, a decent dealer, inside connection, whatever to get Honda to address and fix this issue. Please folks, this squeal is not dirty pads or rotors, nor should I have to change the way I brake.
IF Honda ever does come through I hope to God that it does not involve rubber spacers. Man that is ugly.

 

[rboe]

Disc brakes seem to be a source of noise from cars to bikes. And the darn things will still work just fine. Typically some disc brake gunk that goes on in a thin film between the piston and the pad will cure it.

Otherwise, dang tough to diagnose without inspecting and hearing - and even then I'm no expert by any means. My brakes tend to squeak/squeal if wet from rain or something so I got nothing to add regarding this bike.

Good luck.

 

[VLJ_imp]

Rboe, I've been riding the XSR900 in the rain the past couple of days, and in over 10,000 miles, whether with the original stock pads or the current EBC HH pads, there has never been any brake squeals. This CB1100 is my first bike to do this. It's definitely not rain-related, either. Rain or shine, wet or dry, her front brakes squeal. It also doesn't matter whether the brakes are hot or not. At the beginning of a ride, or at the end of a hard run on a sunny day in the canyons, they make the same sound when I come to a slow, gradual stop.

 

[Nortoon_imp]

The front brakes on my 2017 CB1100 EX do the same thing all the time. I rode my CB500XA over 33,000 kilometers/20,500 miles over three summers, and the brakes never squealed.

The rear brake on the EX also dragged and the rear disk discoloured from heat. The disk and pads were replaced under warranty, but still drag. Worse than that the rear brake is now totally useless probably because the dealer did not bleed the brake fluid properly.

My CB500XA cost less than half of what my 2017 CB1100 EX does and was considered a "budget bike" by the press. So what does that say about the quality of the EX and its lousy brakes.

 

[johnf514_imp]

FWIW (prob nothing) my rear brake squeaks just a tad every so often under normal braking. Not enough to cause major concern for me. If it were my front brakes which I use much more frequently, it might though.

In the same boat here, the rear squeaks occasionally but not often. The only "issue" I have with the front brakes is that when initially starting out, the pull at the lever is effectively unusable. Giving it a good squeeze, letting go, and reapplying pressure resolves the issue, but it has caught me by surprise more than once. I have gotten in the habit of giving it a squeeze before setting off.

Personality is inherent in motorcycles, but I agree with VLJ that if you paid for a new product that is under warranty, you should absolutely get any issue resolved in that time period. I did so with my high idle issue and replacing the IACV under an extended warranty and was happy with the results (after 3 trips to the dealership).

 

[the Ferret]

John sounds like you have air in your front system. Have them bled.

 

[VLJ_imp]

Looks like no rain next Tuesday, so I just booked a return visit to the dealer for that day.

This dealer has sold only two '17 EXs, so I doubt they have any experience in dealing with this issue on this model. I've also never had to deal with this issue before, with any bike. I don't know what the usual service department-level fix is for front brake squeal on a new bike, assuming there even is a standard protocol for this problem.

 

[Acrobat_imp]

Today I went to my friends at Honda (also Triumph, BMW, KTM ) dealership here. They said it's a known issue and that I'm lucky that it stopped in my bike but maybe it returns (the noise).
They were also aware that most dealers suggest "try to change your breaking style",maybe because there is no official remedy.
They believe that the problem lays on the friction material of the pads, making them to vibrate and produce squealing. This happens in the front brakes because in front we have floating discs and fixed calipers instead of floating caliper and fixed disc at the rear.
From their experience, the application of graphite grease at pads contact points with the calipers is effective in most cases.
The use of aftermarket pads also may solve the problem but they don't recommend it because from their experience again, the results are premature wear and discoloration of discs and less effective breaking. Also the ABS unit is calibrated with the original parts. So aftermarket pads is a no-no.
As for warranty claims, they said that they would be very happy to replace discs and pads for free under warranty, but this will not fixes the problem. Of course labour costs concerning efforts to tackle the problem, is up to the dealer and his good will.
The noises are also under warranty given that they come from a defective part and replacing this part eliminates the noise. Otherwise the noise is a functional characteristic of the specific system.

I said some things and they said some things that i cannot state here due to censorship and we had a good laugh...thank you...

By the way, as they are also Triumph dealers, they said in Triumph case the noise came from vibrating disc, that's why the factory put this buffer. A solution not very elegant from engineering point of view...

 

[VLJ_imp]

Acrobat, ABS sensors don't measure anything that has to do with the brake pad compound, so switching to aftermarket pads should have no effect on the ABS system. I changed pad compounds on my ABS-equipped XSR900, to no ill effect.

So, from what you're saying, the only remedy they've tried that worked (other than swapping pads) was adding grease to the back of the pads?

 

[the Ferret]

Nice of you to go talk to them about it Acrobat. Thanks for the info.

 

[Houtman_imp]

Acrobat, ABS sensors don't measure anything that has to do with the brake pad compound, so switching to aftermarket pads should have no effect on the ABS system. I changed pad compounds on my ABS-equipped XSR900, to no ill effect.

So, from what you're saying, the only remedy they've tried that worked (other than swapping pads) was adding grease to the back of the pads?

Or you put grease on the front of the pads , this will really cure the problem .......