Design Disadvantages of the CB1100

[Cormanus]

QuietGuy, I didn't see what you deleted, but people round here, while often having different opinions, are seldom disagreeable. The Ferret or Guth deal with them swiftly if they are. I'm no mechanic, but I have learned that for every opinion on any matter relating to motorcycling, there is an equal and opposite opinion.

On another matter, I've had one email exchange with SanPete since the rally. I suspect he's been out of the country in a land where the Internet doesn't reach. I hope so. He's a goodun as us older Antipodeans say.

 

[Shinchan_imp]

Holy crap!!! If this bike had looked like the sketch in the first link, it would have made a great bike perfect!

I think you meant Prescott and Jerome.

From Jerome you drop down to Cottonwood (not a bad ride but very low speed limit, lot's of traffic and good opportunities to wash out the front tire) then through Cottonwood, across the river and quick ride to Sedona. Now the road from Sedona to Flagstaff is supposed to be nice if traffic is light but it has been years since I've been on it and never on a bike. Between traffic and accidents and lack of time I've missed it.
For a nice day trip we have taken the Beeline from east Phoenix up to Payson. Take 260/87 north until 260 T's off to the left and take it to Camp Verde . From Camp Verde we take I-17 home. 260 is a very nice ride in the pines while on top of the rim with a dramatic drop into Camp Verde.

An alternative that taken in the fall, continue on 87 to Clints' Wells, then take Lake Mary Road to the back way into Flagstaff. Just a very pretty route for a relaxing day.

Thanks! I was in both of those areas during my stay there in the spring and summer of '96. Doesn't Sonny Barger have a bike shop in the Sedona-Cottonwood area? We stopped in there, not knowing who he is. I later saw him on some tv documentary and recognized him, we probably shot the breeze with him for half an hour or so, neither of us had any idea who he is.

Travelled the road from Phoenix to Payson as well, (and points north), unfortunately I was there on a job and not on a bike. I've always wanted to go back and ride those beautiful roads on a bike. The CB1100 is just the bike.

When I was coming into Morenci from the north, there was a lot of truck traffic, I don't know what they were hauling, but it had to be mine related, there is nothing else out there. The dust was everywhere. We started seeing the trucks probably an hour or so from the mine. I am planning a road trip this spring through New Mexico and Arizona, I might make a detour through there just to ride that road.

If you're in the area, this stretch of Hwy 89A between Sedona and Jerome is pure bliss. It's only 14 miles surrounded on both sides by boring, but it ranks high among the roads I've been on.

https://maps.google.com/maps?saddr=AZ-89...sz=11&z=11

Thanks, I am going to try, time permitting, it's along the route I am planning.

"Tink!"

It's a beautiful sound. And, yes, I've heard it.

I have been told is the exhaust and not the engine fins :-(

Sent from my SPH-L710 using Tapatalk [url=http://'http://tapatalk.com/m?id=10']now Free

It's absolutely the contraction of the exhaust as it cools and here's how you can demonstrate it:

When you've stopped and the hot bike is making the ticking noise, leave your glove on your hand and give your muffer a quick knock with your gloved knuckle. The ticking stops--all those stresses on the sheet metal in your exhaust system have been temporarily relaxed for a moment, but it'll soon start ticking again.

The exhaust also ticks when it's warming up, but it's difficult to hear over the engine noise.

pashnit.com has California roads mapped out pretty good. California has a lifetime of fun motorcycle roads.

I've been in that area of AZ but not that road. The dust could be a problem for me.

Pashnit used to be awesome, before he started requiring subscriptions to see the good stuff. Northern California is the great motorcycling place in the Country IMO. Even better than Colorado, (and Colorado is spectacular.)

I've been down that highway to Morenci, was there on a job in '96. Unfortunately, I wasn't on a bike. I do remember thinking it would be a great ride. The activity from the copper mine seems to keep things dusty and dirty, that's for sure. Definitely the middle of nowhere, but beautiful country.

Now you are the one jumping to conclusions. I do fondle my CB a little from time to time but that's as far as I go.

If it starts making the "ticking" sound, don't worry, it's the design.

But it's like that 60 miles away from the mine and further up the mountain--too far to be from the copper mine. I believe it's more a function of the lack of rain and regular traffic to blow the dust off the road. It was not really visible and it didn't really get kicked up, but when I stopped and walked around on the asphalt I noticed it was slicker than owl-$#it.
Too bad really, because the asphalt quality and visibility was good, the traffic was light, and it just begged to be ridden hard.

It's absolutely the contraction of the exhaust as it cools and here's how you can demonstrate it:

When you've stopped and the hot bike is making the ticking noise, leave your glove on your hand and give your muffer a quick knock with your gloved knuckle. The ticking stops--all those stresses on the sheet metal in your exhaust system have been temporarily relaxed for a moment, but it'll soon start ticking again.

The exhaust also ticks when it's warming up, but it's difficult to hear over the engine noise.
Not doubting you on that, makes sense.

In an article telling the "story" of the CB1100, (the concept, design, and reasons for doing so), the lead designer of the bike explains that they designed the cooling fins at a particular width, (2mm I think), for the look they create, he also says that he loves the metallic sounds made by air cooled engines as they cool down. Whether it's the exhaust, or the expansion and contraction of the cooling fins, it is a trait of air cooled engines.
Just read that article again, it's a cool article, that explains a lot of things that some of us have questioned, such as the horsepower, (or lack of), etc.

Mitsuyoshi Kohama, the lead designer talks at length about his ideas, the concept he had for the bike, and talks about every component of the bike and how and why they did the things they did.

He sums it up like this:

"Although it offers a sporty ride, the CB1100 is not a sport bike. It's a great motorcycle to take on a tour, but it's not a tourer or a cruiser. Despite how good it feels to zip around town on the CB1100, it's not a street bike, either. Focused only on the elements that make a motorcycle a motorcycle, we built the CB1100 on the origins of Honda's motorcycles and polished it to perfection. The result is an archetypal "cool bike." (Honda Worldwide Site)

"It's a bike that requires no big "Let's ride!" occasion or attitude. Rather, you can simply think, "The weather is nice—where shall I go?" and take your CB1100 for an easygoing spin. It's a bike that will soon become a trusted friend and ally." (Honda Worldwide Site)

This thread would not be complete without these links.

[url=http://world.honda.com/design/designers-talk/cb1100/]http://world.honda.com/design/designers-talk/cb1100/

http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?id=7157-en

Enjoy!

 

[capttwb136_imp]

I bought the CB1100 for the standard riding position. The fairly good handling, and while some think it's heavy, for such a comfortable motorcycle it is relatively light. To get the power, the comfort in a bike you'd need to add a 150 lbs or more. I've had big tourers, big cruisers, Japanese, American, German, really comfortable bikes but entirely too heavy. Early ones were extremely top heavy, they were a chore to ride at parking lot speed. The ones without reverse required careful consideration where and how you parked them. This motorcycle is a easy, light, fun bike to ride, what more do you want?

 

[Outlander427_imp]

OK I'm pretty late coming to this discussion but here is my input. I looked at a lot of bikes before choosing the CB1100. What I liked about the bike was the retro look (which reminds me more of the 80's than 70's). I wanted a simple design that I could easily modify and customize to my liking. I definitely wanted an I 4 1100 (I love the sound of an I 4) and the fact that it was air cooled made it even better. It has all the power that I need and actually gets a good number of compliments. I would have liked to see a little more horsepower, hydraulic valves, more fuel capacity and maybe even a shaft drive but I am really happy with this bike and look forward to riding it every day.

 

[Ulvetanna_imp]

What a thread. Wow. Another one bumped.

 

[riceburner_imp]

Here's my list of design failings of the CB:

1. It's air-cooled. What were they thinking? It's so much easier to control engine heat, and thus provide more power for comparable displacements, with water-cooling.

2. There's no fairing. Riders are exposed to the elements, including wind-blast, rain, and cold. A large, modern fairing would not only resolve those issues, but would also provide a location to install features such as "Infotainment" systems, GPS, satellite TV, etc.

3. No luggage. Where the heck are you supposed to put your hair dryer if you take a road trip? A large top case and side-bags would go a long way here.

4. Chain drive. Are you kidding me? A shaft drive would be quieter, cleaner, and virtually zero maintenance. CB buyers are stuck with cleaning and lubricating chains for the life of the motorcycle.

5. I-4 engine layout. This engine design is simply outdated. A V-4 or horizontally opposed 6 cylinder engine would produce more power and fewer vibrations.

6. Single headlight. Two headlights would provide better visibility for both the rider and surrounding traffic. Shame on Honda for not investing a few dollars more here.

So Spaceman,sounds like a Gold Wing or GW Valkyrie,or CTX 1300 fits your desires,what you say?? Honda makes bikes for a variety of tastes,needs,wants and desires!!!Well who would have imagines that.:beerchug:

 

[Inhouse Bob]

Here's my list of design failings of the CB:

1. It's air-cooled. What were they thinking? It's so much easier to control engine heat, and thus provide more power for comparable displacements, with water-cooling.

2. There's no fairing. Riders are exposed to the elements, including wind-blast, rain, and cold. A large, modern fairing would not only resolve those issues, but would also provide a location to install features such as "Infotainment" systems, GPS, satellite TV, etc.

3. No luggage. Where the heck are you supposed to put your hair dryer if you take a road trip? A large top case and side-bags would go a long way here.

4. Chain drive. Are you kidding me? A shaft drive would be quieter, cleaner, and virtually zero maintenance. CB buyers are stuck with cleaning and lubricating chains for the life of the motorcycle.

5. I-4 engine layout. This engine design is simply outdated. A V-4 or horizontally opposed 6 cylinder engine would produce more power and fewer vibrations.

6. Single headlight. Two headlights would provide better visibility for both the rider and surrounding traffic. Shame on Honda for not investing a few dollars more here.

So Spaceman,sounds like a Gold Wing or GW Valkyrie,or CTX 1300 fits your desires,what you say?? Honda makes bikes for a variety of tastes,needs,wants and desires!!!Well who would have imagines that.:beerchug:

So Spaceman,sounds like a Gold Wing or GW Valkyrie,or CTX 1300 fits your desires,what you say?? Honda makes bikes for a variety of tastes,needs,wants and desires!!!Well who would have imagines that.:beerchug: Methinks he was being just a bit facetious.

 

[Papa Weeley_imp]

...just a wee bit, yes.

 

[riceburner_imp]

Advantage:easier for me to work on,less complicated parts than water cooled shaft drive.Low initial new cost. Inexpensive to insure. Disadvantage:Can't think of one.

 

[the Ferret]

Here's my list of design failings of the CB:

1. It's air-cooled. What were they thinking? It's so much easier to control engine heat, and thus provide more power for comparable displacements, with water-cooling.

2. There's no fairing. Riders are exposed to the elements, including wind-blast, rain, and cold. A large, modern fairing would not only resolve those issues, but would also provide a location to install features such as "Infotainment" systems, GPS, satellite TV, etc.

3. No luggage. Where the heck are you supposed to put your hair dryer if you take a road trip? A large top case and side-bags would go a long way here.

4. Chain drive. Are you kidding me? A shaft drive would be quieter, cleaner, and virtually zero maintenance. CB buyers are stuck with cleaning and lubricating chains for the life of the motorcycle.

5. I-4 engine layout. This engine design is simply outdated. A V-4 or horizontally opposed 6 cylinder engine would produce more power and fewer vibrations.

6. Single headlight. Two headlights would provide better visibility for both the rider and surrounding traffic. Shame on Honda for not investing a few dollars more here.

So Spaceman,sounds like a Gold Wing or GW Valkyrie,or CTX 1300 fits your desires,what you say?? Honda makes bikes for a variety of tastes,needs,wants and desires!!!Well who would have imagines that.:beerchug:

So Spaceman,sounds like a Gold Wing or GW Valkyrie,or CTX 1300 fits your desires,what you say?? Honda makes bikes for a variety of tastes,needs,wants and desires!!!Well who would have imagines that.:beerchug: Methinks he was being just a bit facetious.

Methinks he was being just a bit facetious.
Well Spaceman did eventually get rid of his CB1100 for a water cooled, 3 cylinder Yamaha with fairing and bags, and dual headlights. If it had shaft drive, I suppose it would be perfect for him.

Heck that might be perfect for me lol

 

[dsinned_imp]

In all seriousness, I'd have to say, not having hydraulic valves, makes my short list of design disadvantages.

Honda had them in the smaller displacement inline four Night Hawk, so they already had a working design. I think one of the most often heard criticisms of the CB1100 is its 8k valve adjustment service interval. Because of the major hit on cost of ownership, most other makes are able to at least double this interval even without hydraulic valves. The cost of this routine maintenance can be as much as $1000; that's a huge turnoff in the minds of potential buyers!

 

[redbirds_imp]

Valve maintenance interval seems short but I have never owned a bike with shim under bucket design that needed adjustment. Hydraulic lifters would be much preferred and are present on most all OHC autos so I don't understand why Honda does not use this technology on motorcycles, would be a great selling point, even Harley uses them. My Guzzi and BMW had push rods and valve adjustments were easy to perform at home with a set of feeler gauges and a wrench or two but it seems I was always resetting them.

My other gripe is rust. This bike has started rusting on the triple clamps, turn signal bases and the fork tubes. Inexcusable for a bike that stays garaged and has only rarely seen rain. Never had a rust problem to this extent with any other bike I've owned.

 

[AzBob_imp]

Valve maintenance interval seems short but I have never owned a bike with shim under bucket design that needed adjustment. Hydraulic lifters would be much preferred and are present on most all OHC autos so I don't understand why Honda does not use this technology on motorcycles, would be a great selling point, even Harley uses them. My Guzzi and BMW had push rods and valve adjustments were easy to perform at home with a set of feeler gauges and a wrench or two but it seems I was always resetting them.

My other gripe is rust. This bike has started rusting on the triple clamps, turn signal bases and the fork tubes. Inexcusable for a bike that stays garaged and has only rarely seen rain. Never had a rust problem to this extent with any other bike I've owned.

Most autos do not rev past 7k RPM, and the ones that do have very expensive valve trains to combat valve float.

 

[redbirds_imp]

True enough but I cannot remember the last time my CB tached much over 5K. I always short shift and let the low end torque work.

 

[Offroad]

The biggest short coming I experienced in the twisties recently is the range between 1st and 2nd gear.

Dropping to 2nd from 3rd for a curve was no big deal, but dropping to 1st from 2nd for those up hill hair pins was painful.

I guessed about a 2000 rpm drop between 1st and 2nd but only 1000 rpm between 2nd and 3rd.

I hardly ever use 6th gear, I wish they would have taken 6th and inserted it in between 1st and 2nd.

 

[flynrider]

Valve maintenance interval seems short but I have never owned a bike with shim under bucket design that needed adjustment. Hydraulic lifters would be much preferred and are present on most all OHC autos so I don't understand why Honda does not use this technology on motorcycles, would be a great selling point, even Harley uses them. My Guzzi and BMW had push rods and valve adjustments were easy to perform at home with a set of feeler gauges and a wrench or two but it seems I was always resetting them.

My other gripe is rust. This bike has started rusting on the triple clamps, turn signal bases and the fork tubes. Inexcusable for a bike that stays garaged and has only rarely seen rain. Never had a rust problem to this extent with any other bike I've owned.

Most autos do not rev past 7k RPM, and the ones that do have very expensive valve trains to combat valve float.

What I don't get is that the Nighthawk and the CB11's I4s have nearly identical redlines. The hydraulic tappets on my Nighthawk work pretty well up to redline. Both engines are tuned more for low-midrange power, rather than high rpm power delivery.

Knowing Honda, they probably had an engineering reason for going with the shim under bucket style. I'd love to know what it was.

 

[dsinned_imp]

The cynical reason is to make more money for Honda Dealers, but surely there must have been a technical reason. Although, I can't think of any reason why not. OTOH, I may not log more than 8,000 miles, during the short number of years I have left as an active motorcycle enthusiast due to my advanced age. ;-)

 

[Cormanus]

Here's my list of design failings of the CB:

1. It's air-cooled. What were they thinking? It's so much easier to control engine heat, and thus provide more power for comparable displacements, with water-cooling.

2. There's no fairing. Riders are exposed to the elements, including wind-blast, rain, and cold. A large, modern fairing would not only resolve those issues, but would also provide a location to install features such as "Infotainment" systems, GPS, satellite TV, etc.

3. No luggage. Where the heck are you supposed to put your hair dryer if you take a road trip? A large top case and side-bags would go a long way here.

4. Chain drive. Are you kidding me? A shaft drive would be quieter, cleaner, and virtually zero maintenance. CB buyers are stuck with cleaning and lubricating chains for the life of the motorcycle.

5. I-4 engine layout. This engine design is simply outdated. A V-4 or horizontally opposed 6 cylinder engine would produce more power and fewer vibrations.

6. Single headlight. Two headlights would provide better visibility for both the rider and surrounding traffic. Shame on Honda for not investing a few dollars more here.

So Spaceman,sounds like a Gold Wing or GW Valkyrie,or CTX 1300 fits your desires,what you say?? Honda makes bikes for a variety of tastes,needs,wants and desires!!!Well who would have imagines that.:beerchug:

So Spaceman,sounds like a Gold Wing or GW Valkyrie,or CTX 1300 fits your desires,what you say?? Honda makes bikes for a variety of tastes,needs,wants and desires!!!Well who would have imagines that.:beerchug: Methinks he was being just a bit facetious.

So Spaceman,sounds like a Gold Wing or GW Valkyrie,or CTX 1300 fits your desires,what you say?? Honda makes bikes for a variety of tastes,needs,wants and desires!!!Well who would have imagines that.:beerchug: Methinks he was being just a bit facetious.

Facetious? The Spaceman? Never!

 

[Inhouse Bob]

The cynical reason is to make more money for Honda Dealers, but surely there must have been a technical reason. Although, I can't think of any reason why not. OTOH, I may not log more than 8,000 miles, during the short number of years I have left as an active motorcycle enthusiast due to my advanced age. ;-)

Ah heck, dsinned, you could get that in a couple of weeks if you put your mind to it! :biker::biker::biker::biker::biker::biker::biker::biker::biker::biker::biker:

 

[olekzap_imp]

The biggest short coming I experienced in the twisties recently is the range between 1st and 2nd gear.

Dropping to 2nd from 3rd for a curve was no big deal, but dropping to 1st from 2nd for those up hill hair pins was painful.

I guessed about a 2000 rpm drop between 1st and 2nd but only 1000 rpm between 2nd and 3rd.

I hardly ever use 6th gear, I wish they would have taken 6th and inserted it in between 1st and 2nd.

I actually just noticed this the other day. I feel like you can easily short-shift and not bog down between all the gears except for 1-2. Taking off from a stoplight in 1st in traffic and it feels like you have to decide between revving out 1st unnecessarily or shifting into 2nd early and it just not feeling right.