crankshaft balancer backlash adjustment

[dlhmatt_imp]

I searched and didn't see anyone even mention it on the forum or in the "my engine makes sounds like Satan playing the steel drums" threads. Page 11-33 in the FSM says the balancer can either make a "whine" if the backlash is to small or a "rattling" if to excessive. Mine made a ticking or rattling noise way low down in the engine a long time ago at idle and if you let it sit and would sometimes come back at red lights. Haven't heard it in a while but i have extreme selective hearing due to being married.

Thoughts, opinions?
Also if i give it hell off the line sometimes going from second to third gear there is nothing there and it won't go into third till i click up again. I've also had it pop out of third.

 

[CIP57_imp]

I searched and didn't see anyone even mention it on the forum or in the "my engine makes sounds like Satan playing the steel drums" threads. Page 11-33 in the FSM says the balancer can either make a "whine" if the backlash is to small or a "rattling" if to excessive. Mine made a ticking or rattling noise way low down in the engine a long time ago at idle and if you let it sit and would sometimes come back at red lights. Haven't heard it in a while but i have extreme selective hearing due to being married.

Thoughts, opinions?
Also if i give it hell off the line sometimes going from second to third gear there is nothing there and it won't go into third till i click up again. I've also had it pop out of third.

That lower end rattle has been experienced by myself and a few members. If your running 10-40 change it to 10-30 with a filter change. The oil does not return quick enough from the oil cooler and causes a lower end ticking and rattle. If you are using 10-30 then your issue could be something else. I would still try running 10-30 full syn. and a filter change before you spend $$ on a diagnosis.

Some vehicles are more sensitive then other, i run two Ford 5.4 Triton motors in my trucks, 5-20 is required, anything heavier will blow out head gaskets because the return from the top end is to slow. My mechanic makes a living with these guys in the winter.

 

[Dakota_imp]

I searched and didn't see anyone even mention it on the forum or in the "my engine makes sounds like Satan playing the steel drums" threads. Page 11-33 in the FSM says the balancer can either make a "whine" if the backlash is to small or a "rattling" if to excessive. Mine made a ticking or rattling noise way low down in the engine a long time ago at idle and if you let it sit and would sometimes come back at red lights. Haven't heard it in a while but i have extreme selective hearing due to being married.

Thoughts, opinions?
Also if i give it hell off the line sometimes going from second to third gear there is nothing there and it won't go into third till i click up again. I've also had it pop out of third.

That lower end rattle has been experienced by myself and a few members. If your running 10-40 change it to 10-30 with a filter change. The oil does not return quick enough from the oil cooler and causes a lower end ticking and rattle. If you are using 10-30 then your issue could be something else. I would still try running 10-30 full syn. and a filter change before you spend $$ on a diagnosis.

Some vehicles are more sensitive then other, i run two Ford 5.4 Triton motors in my trucks, 5-20 is required, anything heavier will blow out head gaskets because the return from the top end is to slow. My mechanic makes a living with these guys in the winter.

That lower end rattle has been experienced by myself and a few members. If your running 10-40 change it to 10-30 with a filter change. The oil does not return quick enough from the oil cooler and causes a lower end ticking and rattle. If you are using 10-30 then your issue could be something else. I would still try running 10-30 full syn. and a filter change before you spend $$ on a diagnosis.
Can you elaborate on your comment regarding the oil not returning quickly enough from the oil cooler. I can't see how the oil cooler could be hording the oil and starving the lower end.

 

[kDiqq_imp]

I HAVE THE SAME THING! It only happens when warm!! Not when cold and not when hot/fully warmed. I think I may try adjusting the balancer. Look up the procedure or discussion for any other Hondas with this system. I looked up CBR1000F forums for how to do it. I've adjusted once on a CBR1000F and it wasn't hard at all. Still waiting on my service manual before I do it though.. Totally willing to try this since switch to Amsoil 10-40. My factory Honda oil did it too and I REALLY like clutch engagement with the Amsoil and it performs better in every engine I've ran UOAs on as compared to factory oil.

 

[Ack-CB11_imp]

I had something happening that did sound more like a slight knocking. Not on startup but about 2 minutes after. Below 55f it was louder with 4 brands of 10-40. With 3 brands of 10-30 and one 5-40, it was still happening but could only be heard right next to the motor.
Maybe it was something adjustable?

 

[dlhmatt_imp]

Oh no, not another oil thread! I've never even thought about putting 10-40 in this bike.

 

[kDiqq_imp]

I was just following the service manuals recommendation for a hotter climate. Recommended isn't always best. A great case is in GM LS engines. Raced them for years. Suggests Mobil 5w-30. UOAs showed massive shearing, metal deposits, and significant weight differences (equivalent to a thin 20wt after 3-5k miles). Been running a 'European formula' (not that it matters, just what it's called) 0w-40 with amazing results in my current LS2. UAOs and observed wear patterns are key. Not the owners manual.

Never be afraid to venture outside of factory fill. I have found that, though the bottle says 'Honda' on it doesn't mean it offers the best protection. After majoring in mechanical engineering and studying fluid mechanics, I dived in to a bunch of research done in with synthetic (Class 3 and true POAs) oils and found a lot of valuable information. I won't bore you with details but the summary is, an engine is not 'designed to use a specific weight' but rather a huge range of weights. Especially with multi-viscosity oils (anything but straight 20 weight, 30 weight, etc). What you want to be sure of is that you're using an oil for YOUR environment and usage. And, equally as important, you make sure you're using an oil that has additives friendly with the metals used in your engine. Avoid pour-in additives like the plague, especially in wet-clutch applications. Most specs that oil follow (JASO and API) make sure that the oils corrosive properties are within an acceptable limit, but additives do not. Be warned.

This is mostly just my opinion, but there oils far better than what Honda offers, but they do make money off the oil they sell. It will always be recommended for that reason. Will it kill your engine? No, stay regular and most oils won't. But are there ways to extend your engines life by venturing out of Honda 10w30? Yes! Don't let fear prevent you from putting something better in your crankcase. love your bike, protect its guts

PS: Honda is one of the few 'factory' oils that is made in house. Just as an FYI. And is only a JASO MA oil. Has a much lower friction characteristic and a much higher stop time (read: clutch slipping)

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[dlhmatt_imp]

Now that we're back on topic.
When I get home I can post the procedure for adjusting the balancer. Basically it's initially done when cold, less than 95°F. Loosen the pinch bolt turn counterclockwise till resistance is felt then turn clockwise three graduations and tighten the pinch bolt. There is a punch mark on the balancer that you use for reference and the graduations are the lines on the clamp. After that warm up the bike and listen for rattling or whining. If rattling loosen the pinch bolt and turn the adjuster counterclockwise till it whines then bring it back till it stops. Tighten the pinch bolt. Blip the throttle and verify it's not rattling. This is paraphrasing at best and not a direct quote from the FSM.

Do not over tighten your balance or it will lunch bearings and bad things will happen.

 

[the Ferret]

Matt why not do a picture thread for the HOW TO Section?

 

[dlhmatt_imp]

I was just following the service manuals recommendation for a hotter climate. Recommended isn't always best. A great case is in GM LS engines. Raced them for years. Suggests Mobil 5w-30. UOAs showed massive shearing, metal deposits, and significant weight differences (equivalent to a thin 20wt after 3-5k miles). Been running a 'European formula' (not that it matters, just what it's called) 0w-40 with amazing results in my current LS2. UAOs and observed wear patterns are key. Not the owners manual.

Never be afraid to venture outside of factory fill. I have found that, though the bottle says 'Honda' on it doesn't mean it offers the best protection. After majoring in mechanical engineering and studying fluid mechanics, I dived in to a bunch of research done in with synthetic (Class 3 and true POAs) oils and found a lot of valuable information. I won't bore you with details but the summary is, an engine is not 'designed to use a specific weight' but rather a huge range of weights. Especially with multi-viscosity oils (anything but straight 20 weight, 30 weight, etc). What you want to be sure of is that you're using an oil for YOUR environment and usage. And, equally as important, you make sure you're using an oil that has additives friendly with the metals used in your engine. Avoid pour-in additives like the plague, especially in wet-clutch applications. Most specs that oil follow (JASO and API) make sure that the oils corrosive properties are within an acceptable limit, but additives do not. Be warned.

This is mostly just my opinion, but there oils far better than what Honda offers, but they do make money off the oil they sell. It will always be recommended for that reason. Will it kill your engine? No, stay regular and most oils won't. But are there ways to extend your engines life by venturing out of Honda 10w30? Yes! Don't let fear prevent you from putting something better in your crankcase. love your bike, protect its guts

PS: Honda is one of the few 'factory' oils that is made in house. Just as an FYI. And is only a JASO MA oil. Has a much lower friction characteristic and a much higher stop time (read: clutch slipping)

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I recently switched to a synthetic 10-30 and haven't heard this noise in months and ride every day. If y'all want to talk oil how about the thicker oil takes longer to get down there and the difference in oil makes the noise due to not as much oil in there and the backlash needs be tightened up... How many times on this forum have you seen the original oil compared to water.

Matt why not do a picture thread for the HOW TO Section?

I can when I get home. Damn work getting in the way of me playing with bikes... :beerchug:

 

[kDiqq_imp]

My point of reference may be off but mine has always made the rattle. With every oil. I believe that the backlash was set right on the limit of rattling. And not every 10-30 will test as a 10-30. Good example being Mobils 10-30 auto oil tests as a heavy 20 weight when warm. I think this difference in manufacturing is what causes the rattle sometimes combined with the backlash being at its limit. This is just IMO though.

The drain back thing bothers me. I don't want my oil in the pan, I want it in the engine. It needs to be coating everything and staying there. The only time drain back matters is if the sump is sucked dry. And I've never had the oil pressure light trip.

So the way I see it, why do I want my oil getting quickly back to the pan?! It circulates GREAT and is sticking to the parts it's made to protect and there's still plenty of oil to maintain oil pressure. This is ideal!! You don't want the oil rushing in to the sight glass. It needs to be just fast enough to keep up with the pump period. You don't want that oil coming off moving parts and coming back in to the pan.

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[AzBob_imp]

When my bike is hot it sounds like holy death. I figured that was normal. I still do.

 

[dlhmatt_imp]

When my bike is hot it sounds like holy death. I figured that was normal. I still do.

It's not a Harley.

 

[kDiqq_imp]

Shoot, mine sounds like a little sewing machine haha you may have an issue...

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Also, thanks a ton for uploading that page on setting backlash!

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[dlhmatt_imp]

That's just from memory. I read it last night so wait till i get home and i will give you all the info and details from the FSM. If you guys want me to demo it from cold as if you just rebuilt the motor it'll have to wait till the weekend. I'm planning on doing the warmed up adjustment today when i get home. I'm interested in comparing where it stops whining vs where it's set now.

Shoot, mine sounds like a little sewing machine haha you may have an issue...

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Also, thanks a ton for uploading that page on setting backlash!

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[kDiqq_imp]

That's a good observation. I will post my results too. Just really anxious to address this chatter.

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[Ack-CB11_imp]

I'm very interested too. Keep us posted.......

 

[dlhmatt_imp]

Ok so... I just adjusted my balancer. I loosened it a bit to hear the difference and the over tightened it enough to make it sound different then brought it back to where I am comfortable with it. All you need is a 10mm wrench and a large flat blade screw driver. Initial setup is with it cold and you do it not running. Once you get everything else hooked back up after reinstalling your engine you warm it up and adjust from there. I broke the pinch bolt loose and then snuggled it back up and started the engine. I could have went back to the fourth graduation but i figure I'll take it one at a time. To tight and you'll wear out the balancer gear, bearing and shaft. With all the other noises the engine makes you'll have to listen to it for yourself but you can hear the difference it makes in person.

 

[kDiqq_imp]

Matt,

You're the man.

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[dlhmatt_imp]

Matt,

You're the man.

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:beerchug: It's a "one beer" job by the way. Literally after the engine is warmed up it takes just a few seconds to loosen, adjust, say that's to much and back it off and retighten the pinch bolt. Chains break in and "stretch" a bit. Hence the reason for automatic cam/timing chain tensioners but this is a manual tensioner so it will need this eventually if not already...