aschem_imp
Been there
Thread starter
Was looking for front fork springs and saw this: http://www.racetech.com/Newsfeed/2016/01/05/Honda-CB1100-Race-Tech-Setup!
CB1100 Featured on Race Tech Website
- Thread starter aschem_imp
- Start date
Call me overly sensitive but I think it's an overreach for Race Tech to call the stock suspension "mediocre". Almost all factory bike suspensions could be improved upon but that doesn't justify RT's use of mediocre to describe the CB's suspension to hype and sell their products.
aschem_imp
Been there
Thread starter
To me the stock suspension is mediocre at best when compared to the stock suspension of many other bikes I have ridden/owned.
spacetiger_imp
Running like a top
Well, it does date back to the 60's.... so it is old.aschem_imp said:
The emulator is an upgrade - IF you get it adjusted properly. Other wise, not so much.
I have not seen a lot posted on how to get one set up properly.
Jerry
:celebrate: The dreaded suspension thread!
Where opinions are stated as facts. Downhill from there.
My new Ohlins shocks were on my doorstep yesterday. On the bike today. No chance to ride. It rained all day.
I'll get the emulators, along with stiffer springs. I weigh 210# dry, and the bike is too soft in front with little adjustability. (Fact)
I know what I want in a suspension, and it isn't the OEM settings. (Opinion)
I'm not going to street-race or track-day this bike. That would mean insanely uncomfortable rearsets, and wind blasting in my face. Nor am I looking for Marzocchi 45's to replace the spindly forks. I think "spindly" is a not-unkind word, and accurate, so I'm calling that a "fact".
I will end up with a much-improved ride on our bumpy local roads (opinion) and I believe it is worth the cost (opinion). Getting the Ohlins for half-price was a major score! Didn't see that one coming.
Where opinions are stated as facts. Downhill from there.
My new Ohlins shocks were on my doorstep yesterday. On the bike today. No chance to ride. It rained all day.
I'll get the emulators, along with stiffer springs. I weigh 210# dry, and the bike is too soft in front with little adjustability. (Fact)
I know what I want in a suspension, and it isn't the OEM settings. (Opinion)
I'm not going to street-race or track-day this bike. That would mean insanely uncomfortable rearsets, and wind blasting in my face. Nor am I looking for Marzocchi 45's to replace the spindly forks. I think "spindly" is a not-unkind word, and accurate, so I'm calling that a "fact".
I will end up with a much-improved ride on our bumpy local roads (opinion) and I believe it is worth the cost (opinion). Getting the Ohlins for half-price was a major score! Didn't see that one coming.
spacetiger_imp
Running like a top
yes, you are right AzBob. But setting up the suspension should not be taken as an effort to make it a race bike. It just makes the riding nice and pleasant.
Anyone considering adding emulators, I would tell you they are good devices. I spent a little time studying them and figuring how to best set them up for a comfortable ride and try to eliminate the nose dive under hard braking. Here is what I found:
Pic 1: the emulator taken apart. Separate rebound and compression circuits.
Pic 2: Preparing the emulators. drill out the other two 3mm holes (4 total) to handle the small bumps in the road and use the blue springs with 6 turns not the yellow springs. Then put the device all back together.
[url=http://s93.photobucket.com/user/spacetiger81/media/Sportster/Testing%20107_zpsczgjt14o.jpg.html]
Pic 3: For those nurds that like graphs, here is why you want the blue spring with six 360 turns for additional preload. This keeps the main compression oil flow from happening until a specific pressure. This helps control quick nose diving under hard braking.
[url=http://s93.photobucket.com/user/spacetiger81/media/Testing%20106_zps3l4akoms.jpg.html]
When all ready to put in, use oil no greater than 5wt I found 3 wt oil was on the edge (too low) and 7.5 wt (too high). Also, reduce the oil level because the emulator takes up some volume; 1" less than the factory recommendation is safe. :biker:
Pic 4: tuned emulators ready to go in.
[url=http://s93.photobucket.com/user/spacetiger81/media/Sportster/Testing%20108_zpsahtlxuwl.jpg.html]
Jerry
Anyone considering adding emulators, I would tell you they are good devices. I spent a little time studying them and figuring how to best set them up for a comfortable ride and try to eliminate the nose dive under hard braking. Here is what I found:
Pic 1: the emulator taken apart. Separate rebound and compression circuits.
Pic 2: Preparing the emulators. drill out the other two 3mm holes (4 total) to handle the small bumps in the road and use the blue springs with 6 turns not the yellow springs. Then put the device all back together.
[url=http://s93.photobucket.com/user/spacetiger81/media/Sportster/Testing%20107_zpsczgjt14o.jpg.html]
Pic 3: For those nurds that like graphs, here is why you want the blue spring with six 360 turns for additional preload. This keeps the main compression oil flow from happening until a specific pressure. This helps control quick nose diving under hard braking.
[url=http://s93.photobucket.com/user/spacetiger81/media/Testing%20106_zps3l4akoms.jpg.html]
When all ready to put in, use oil no greater than 5wt I found 3 wt oil was on the edge (too low) and 7.5 wt (too high). Also, reduce the oil level because the emulator takes up some volume; 1" less than the factory recommendation is safe. :biker:
Pic 4: tuned emulators ready to go in.
[url=http://s93.photobucket.com/user/spacetiger81/media/Sportster/Testing%20108_zpsahtlxuwl.jpg.html]
Jerry
4 Paws_imp
Road warrior
Imagine that, a suspension component company suggestion stock suspension could be improved upon!
Well, they are correct.
Then again, every time I've had an insurance review the answer was buy more insurance.
Glad to the CB featured, more farkles available the better.
Well, they are correct.
Then again, every time I've had an insurance review the answer was buy more insurance.
Glad to the CB featured, more farkles available the better.
the Ferret
Road warrior
Holy smokes Tiger...you are really into this stuff lol
aschem_imp
Been there
Thread starter
Thanks Spacetiger, your post will save me setup time. Would you increase or decrease the amount of turns for a heavier rider?
spacetiger_imp
Running like a top
aschem,
If you are referring to the turns (increase or decrease) on the emulator, I would say no change to the 6 turns using the blue springs. Your heavier weight are only relevant to the fork springs.
What have you done with the springs. And, you have to tell us your weight. I am 195 - 200 without riding gear, so what I do for my suspension needds may not match what you need. How about starting a setting up a suspension thread and I'll join you and we'll stumble forward.
Jerry
If you are referring to the turns (increase or decrease) on the emulator, I would say no change to the 6 turns using the blue springs. Your heavier weight are only relevant to the fork springs.
What have you done with the springs. And, you have to tell us your weight. I am 195 - 200 without riding gear, so what I do for my suspension needds may not match what you need. How about starting a setting up a suspension thread and I'll join you and we'll stumble forward.
Jerry
kevbroce_imp
Been there
i just emailed Racetech about this setup. They aren't too far from my home, i'm hoping i can get them to install and tune my bike.
aschem_imp
Been there
Thread starter
Let us know how it goes.kevbroce_imp said:
spacetiger' pid='118928' dateline='1452731995 said:
If I may direct you guys to my thread 'Maxton Suspension'. I've had new cartridges in the front forks which allow preload and rebound adjustment. The system mentioned in this thread only mentions compression damping. As I understand it compression damping and preload basically do the same thing whereas rebound damping controls the rate of return of the spring. Maxton also replaced the rear shocks which now allows infinite preload control and also rebound damping. What I really liked about the Maxton setup was the fact that they put your bike on a rolling road/dyno and load it to simulate the riders weight and then set the preload and damping rates to that weight. I've not had the weather to test the system yet but I'll write a report as soon as I get the chance. With regard to the stock system on the CB1100 I would say that it is adequate for the way the bike is designed to be ridden but only having four rear shock preload settings to deal with everything from a light weight female solo rider to two big males and a load of luggage is asking a lot from just four settings. I also wrote a thread 'weird suspension' describing the odd nature of the 2014 fork spring set up - two different lengths of springs. Maxton saying it does work in an odd sort of way but it is not something you would ever find on a performance bike.
kevbroce_imp
Been there
aschem_imp said:
spacetiger_imp
Running like a top
kevbroce_imp said:
just an opinion on this i have race teck emulators with the yellow spring 3 turns 1 extra hole in the plate (harsh on small bumps without it ) race tech 1.oo springs with 15 weight fork oil bearing in mind you have to drill out the lower rods with gazzi premium rear remote shocks and i will tell you this set up is worth every cent just my opinion cheers
aschem_imp
Been there
Thread starter
I am a total novice at suspension. I have no plans on on working on suspension in my freezer of a garage; I live in SE Idaho and my garage is cramped and unheated (mid 20s). I haven't seen the ground for over a month due to the weekly snow showers.
I do enjoy reading the posts from people who have much more experience and thankful for the knowledge they bring to the discussion.
I initially posted the Race Tech info for people who are interested in changing their stock suspension. I do plan on getting the fork springs replaced and possibly the emulators. I purchased and installed Ikon shocks for the rear and satisfied with the improvement over the stock shocks.
I do enjoy reading the posts from people who have much more experience and thankful for the knowledge they bring to the discussion.
I initially posted the Race Tech info for people who are interested in changing their stock suspension. I do plan on getting the fork springs replaced and possibly the emulators. I purchased and installed Ikon shocks for the rear and satisfied with the improvement over the stock shocks.
nhawk7504_imp
Been there
The stock suspension is too stiff for me but it's more a case of me being too light for the spring rate. There is no way one spring can work for 160-250 pounds. I buy a new shock(s) on most bikes I have as a result. My SUZ TU250 was surprisingly great over the truly horrid New England pavement.
Frulk_imp said:
spacetiger_imp
Running like a top
rmack, I thought I'd pile on some info since the (~24") snow is coming in DC and everything is at a standstill.rmack_imp said:
So how do you tune the emulator?
You start by taking apart the emulator and studying how the thing works. The rebound side is straight forward; you change the oil weight; there are no planned tuneable features on the devise. I will say, the rebound oil pathway makes ~four 90 degree turns and the compression oil pathway takes two 90 degree turns. So, for simplification the rebound ratio is 2 to 1.
Then, you start looking at the compression oil path way. There are 3 ways to tune that path; preload screw, number of small oil passage holes in the plunger, and selecting the blue or yellow spring. The question becomes, how do you know what to change and by how much? You can decode the compression pathway by doing a little dimensional analysis. If you look at the area the compression oil flow goes through, you can figure out how high the plunger has to raise so the oil passage areas are equal.
Pic 1: This shows the compression oil flow for my set up. I drilled out the other 2 small holes so I have a total of four 3mm holes and I use the blue spring. I can see the oil comes up through the lower emulator body and has to pass through the plunger + four 3mm holes. So, the oil from through the center hole is equal to the area of the four holes + the cylinder opening created as the plunger moves up.
Pic 2. Working through the math I can determine the height the plunger has to raise to make the oil flow pathways equal; Area1 = Area2 + Area3. You can see, with 4 holes, the plunger only has to rise 0.098”, or 0.1”, for the areas to be equal. Note: in my previous posted graphic, I showed a higher plunge rise (~0.138”) because I didn’t mathematically account for the spring preload screw diameter. The number posted here accounts for all flow holes.
[url=http://s93.photobucket.com/user/spacetiger81/media/CB1100/2.%20%202%20emulator%20analysis_zps9etbetwe.jpg.html]
Pic 3: So here is the RT recommended starting point; yellow spring, 2 turns of preload and 2 holes. The yellow line represents that recommended starting point. At the lower left, the 2 screw turns gives you a 4 lb preload starting point. The slope of line is 64 lbs/in. The end point is based on the rise height of the plunger with 2 holes. You can see at that point, the spring is pushing against the oil pressure at about 11.1 lbs. Depending on what you are doing at the moment to the front suspension, the oil pressure may be much greater than 11.1 lbs, but I doubt the plunger will just keep going up, it probably just rises a bit more. So how do you pick the starting emulator point, you can pop it in using RT recommended starting point, go riding and see what you like – or, you can take the advise of other riders if they have dialed in the emulator and report what they liked. But be cautious, not everyone knows whats really going on and not every road condition is the same for all riders. So take that into account.
[url=http://s93.photobucket.com/user/spacetiger81/media/CB1100/2.%20%203%20emulator%20analysis_zpsy4w3btrt.jpg.html]
Pic4: But what if you wanted to tune your devise, how do you know what to adjust and more importantly, buy how much? For example, what happens if I drill more hole to the starting point. What happens to the curve? This pic shows the fewer the holes, the higher the plunger has to rise to get the flow ares to be the same. More holes (with lighter weight oil) gives you better control/ride quality for lots of road irregularities. The lower oil pressure at the top is better for medium+ longer rise and dips in the road/curvy roads. The smother the roads or long sweeping roads will be better with higher pressures.
[url=http://s93.photobucket.com/user/spacetiger81/media/CB1100/2.%20%204%20emulator%20analysis_zpskummzugl.jpg.html]
Pic 5: So how does rmack’s set up compare to the RT recommended starting point? He added another 3mm hole (total of 3), stayed with the yellow spring, and increased the preload by a total of 3 turns. You can see the increased preload turn increased the pressure for plunger initial movement from 4 to 6 lbs. this will keep the nose of the bike from dipping down under braking a bit better. By adding another 3mm hole, he has more ability to let quick oil pulses through to handle more road irregularities than the RT recommended starting point. His 12.7 lb pressure is a bit higher so it is a bit better at handling medium+ to longer sweeping roads.
[url=http://s93.photobucket.com/user/spacetiger81/media/CB1100/2.%20%205%20emulator%20analysis_zpssjzq7tff.jpg.html]
Pic 6: This is my choice of set up; four holes, blue spring, and 7 preload turns on the screw. You can see I have more than doubled the pressure needed to start opening the plunger vs. the RT recommended starting point (8.8 lbs vs. 4 lbs). I ride a bit aggressive in traffic and often use the brakes to stop quickly, to this delayed opening keeps the nose up longer. The see the slope of the blue line is less than the yellow line reflecting the different spring rates (40 lbs/in vs. 64 lbs/in). You will note because of the 4 holes, I have the same top end pressure to make the oil flow area the same (12.7 lbs).
[url=http://s93.photobucket.com/user/spacetiger81/media/CB1100/2.%20%206%20emulator%20analysis_zpsya9aehet.jpg.html]
So now, you have the handy relative tuning curves to guide you in dialing in your emulator for how you ride and your road conditions. :banana:
Having lived in in the UK for 3 years, I would say most riders over there would like my set up – use 5 wt (best) or 7.5 wt (max) oil. :beerchug:
rmack, I’m going out on a limb and say I bet you’ll like my set up too, especially if you swap to 5 wt oil. :biker:
Jerry
