Cam chain model and relpacement.

[syncronizator_imp]

Yesterday I took my CB1100EX to a mechanic to adjust the valve clearance.
I asked to verify the condition of the timing chain.
The mechanic claims that the chain is slightly stretched and could be replaced. I have 70,000 km on the clock.

The chain is not loose, but using a little force I am able to pull it down by 2 mm with my fingers.
The mechanic says it shouldn't be possible.
and the chain should be as tight as sheep's balls.
Timing marks are not in the right places... so it means that the chain is slightly stretched.

Unfortunately, the OEM chain available at the dealership is factory clinched. (connected). To replace it, you would have to disassemble the engine and disconnect the crankshaft to replace the cam chain.

This option is out of the question.
I need to find a "disconnected "chain and then change it without disassembling the engine.

Has anyone replaced the timing chain using this method?
I can't find a replacement. Has any managed to buy it?
Do you have any idea about any (not clinched) chain model?

 

[the Ferret]

Hmm I can't remember anyone having replaced a cam chain on this forum and we have several guys with over 100,000 miles (161,000km), one close to 150,000 miles and several more with between 50 and 100,000 miles. I have 73,000 miles (117,000 km) on mine.

 

[The Gecko_imp]

Any other relevant signs of trouble ? If the only side-effect for the coming 20,000 miles is slightly less power ... do you really care ? Instead of jumping on this unpleasant repai, I would measure compression every 5000 miles (buy your own tool) and see whether it does really get worth.
And if you ended up having to disassemble, you might as well replace a valve or two if riding with the stretched chain caused more problems.

 

[the Ferret]

Is it becoming hard to start? Excessive noise? Drop in gas mileage? Backfiring or stuttering?

 

[Nachodaddy]

Hmm I can't remember anyone having replaced a cam chain on this forum and we have several guys with over 100,000 miles (161,000km), one close to 150,000 miles and several more with between 50 and 100,000 miles. I have 73,000 miles (117,000 km) on mine.

How's that again, Ferret?

 

[syncronizator_imp]

Any other relevant signs of trouble ? If the only side-effect for the coming 20,000 miles is slightly less power ... do you really care ? Instead of jumping on this unpleasant repai, I would measure compression every 5000 miles (buy your own tool) and see whether it does really get worth.
And if you ended up having to disassemble, you might as well replace a valve or two if riding with the stretched chain caused more problems.

CB has slightly less power.
No other symptoms.
It's still quiet and pleasant.

Is it becoming hard to start? Excessive noise? Drop in gas mileage? Backfiring or stuttering?

No problems with what you mentioned.
If I manage to buy or fit a proper chain for the CB1100, it wouldn't cost too much while adjusting the valve clearance.

It's good to hear that some people have such high mileage and everything is OK with their timing.

Nevertheless, if someone knows the size of the timing chain, it may be possible to buy it at D.I.D. for the number of links + pin.

 

[the Ferret]

Hmm I can't remember anyone having replaced a cam chain on this forum and we have several guys with over 100,000 miles (161,000km), one close to 150,000 miles and several more with between 50 and 100,000 miles. I have 73,000 miles (117,000 km) on mine.

How's that again, Ferret?

How's that again, Ferret?
Fixed

 

[max]

Since i had my cb1000r new i started to take notes on the number of turns the cam chain tensioner had to the clockwise end stop from new.

Also counted the amount of turns on the cb1100 at 43.000 km which was 3,3 HALF turns ( 180 deg's );
condition; engine cold and not running
The cb1100 is now at 70.000 km and the half turns have increased to 3.5 turns, just checked now.

Made a tool to wind back and compress the camchain and used this to measure the amount of turns, just undo the cam chain tensioner bolt and insert the tool, just be aware there is some oil pressure ( when the engine is running to help tension the cam chain ) just behind this m6 bolt which has an aluminum washer to stop this oil from leaking, i manage to re use the washer by locating the cross back into the slots before just nipping the bolt up without over tightning it.





And dimensions for the tool i use;



And the cam tensioner data as written down for a comparison;



So it may pay to check yours and write it down to compare over time/km's.
Values may vary between bikes but if yours are not showing excessive increases it may be
unnessary to worry about it, diagnose before repair is not a bad strategy.

Also remember that the tensioner uses "ratchet non return stops" to maintain tension on the chain, so depending on where the ratchet stops are the chain may be a bit looser or firmer but the oil pressure keeps the chain tensioned up when the engine is running.

So your query is a very good one and hope these tips help to make a decision which you do not regret later mixed in together with other member's findings.

Ohh nearly forgot; any valves out of spec?

Cheers sync'

 

[syncronizator_imp]

Hi Max .. thank You for this Info..
One exhaust valve is out of range...the slot is 0,1

 

[The Gecko_imp]

Max wrote "diagnose before repair is not a bad strategy", and this is (in this case, not always) a very important thought.
Falls in line with what I said, but takes it even further.
Take your time !
If it happened to me I'd keep riding, and see if I can find a cheap CB1100, may be one which lost a lot of value because
of a harmless front end accident (tank, wheels, forks damaged) but a perfectly good engine. This should be available
at 2000-3000$. Take engine out, preserve it (fluids !) and store it. Save a few other parts which may come handy one
day (ECU, seat, etc etc...).

 

[syncronizator_imp]

Thanks for the advice.
I never make decisions quickly.
The chain will not be replaced for now.
Nothing really bad has happened to the bike so far. If it will be a problem with burnt valve seats, I will simply remove the head and take it to repair. We have specialized workshops here in Poland that will perform repairs without any problems.

At this stage of diagnosis, I do not see the need to buy a wrecked motorcycle for the engine....maybe only if there is such an good opportunity.
Honda CB1100 is very rare motorcycle in my county.
In the 6 years of ownership I have only seen 6 of them... and I live in the capital... where there are plenty of motorcycles

Two years ago I bought a Honda Africa Twen 1100 which I have already done for 44 Tkm
I give this motorcycle the right to wear out. I took it on several trips over the last 2 years.... Scandinavia, Middle East and Caucasus.

My Honda CB1100 now drives less and is starting to act as a Sunday motorcycle, so it will wear out less.
I don't really want to use it up too quickly.
I plan to do no more than 5 Tkm per year.

 

[dave]

Max, GREAT reply, as normal. I like the reply from Ferret also, that it seems unusual that this cam chain would need replacing with this amount of mileage. There is some information lacking concerning the misalignment of the timing marks. Can you, or anybody, please reply to my questions?

1. Will adjusting the cam chain tension help to correct the misaligned timing marks?
2. We don't know how far off the timing marks are. Are the timing marks on the
two cams properly aligned with respect to each other, but misaligned with
respect to the crankshaft? Is it possible the chain skipped one tooth? (Would the
bike still run if the chain skipped one tooth?)
3. Does oil pressure (with the engine running) cause the lifter, tensioner (part #
14500-MAZ-000) to increase cam chain tension?

A "tiny" amount of timing mark misalignment may be due to manufacturing tolerances, and could have been there from day one. It would be great if we could see a picture showing the exact misalignment.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Thanks for the advice.
I never make decisions quickly.
The chain will not be replaced for now.
Nothing really bad has happened to the bike so far. If it will be a problem with burnt valve seats, I will simply remove the head and take it to repair. We have specialized workshops here in Poland that will perform repairs without any problems.

At this stage of diagnosis, I do not see the need to buy a wrecked motorcycle for the engine....maybe only if there is such an good opportunity.
Honda CB1100 is very rare motorcycle in my county.
In the 6 years of ownership I have only seen 6 of them... and I live in the capital... where there are plenty of motorcycles

Two years ago I bought a Honda Africa Twen 1100 which I have already done for 44 Tkm
I give this motorcycle the right to wear out. I took it on several trips over the last 2 years.... Scandinavia, Middle East and Caucasus.

My Honda CB1100 now drives less and is starting to act as a Sunday motorcycle, so it will wear out less.
I don't really want to use it up too quickly.
I plan to do no more than 5 Tkm per year.

Oh, but the missed opportunity to have a wonderful and beautiful artful lump on clear display in the living room, or perhaps the dining room for all grazers and drinkers to gawk and awe at.

Wouldn't that be a pure and pleasurable discussion piece, eh? <-- (did you see that KE?)

 

[SneakyFast]

Thanks for the advice.
I never make decisions quickly.
The chain will not be replaced for now.
Nothing really bad has happened to the bike so far. If it will be a problem with burnt valve seats, I will simply remove the head and take it to repair. We have specialized workshops here in Poland that will perform repairs without any problems.

At this stage of diagnosis, I do not see the need to buy a wrecked motorcycle for the engine....maybe only if there is such an good opportunity.
Honda CB1100 is very rare motorcycle in my county.
In the 6 years of ownership I have only seen 6 of them... and I live in the capital... where there are plenty of motorcycles

Two years ago I bought a Honda Africa Twen 1100 which I have already done for 44 Tkm
I give this motorcycle the right to wear out. I took it on several trips over the last 2 years.... Scandinavia, Middle East and Caucasus.

My Honda CB1100 now drives less and is starting to act as a Sunday motorcycle, so it will wear out less.
I don't really want to use it up too quickly.
I plan to do no more than 5 Tkm per year.

Oh, but the missed opportunity to have a wonderful and beautiful artful lump on clear display in the living room, or perhaps the dining room for all grazers and drinkers to gawk and awe at.

Wouldn't that be a pure and pleasurable discussion piece, eh? <-- (did you see that KE?)

Oh, but the missed opportunity to have a wonderful and beautiful artful lump on clear display in the living room, or perhaps the dining room for all grazers and drinkers to gawk and awe at.

Wouldn't that be a pure and pleasurable discussion piece, eh? <-- (did you see that KE?)
"eh?"^^^:rofl:

 

[max]

Hi Dave, to make this a bit more interesting i found some pictures from when i reshimmed my valves;

As you can see the timing chain tensioner does not alter the length of chain between the sprockets, nothing needs to be done there unless it is one tooth off.

timing for top dead center on crankshaft indicator;

So this is how i lined up the camshafts, i also marked the sprockets on the shaft before separating them so they could be positively identified;

Cams can be out by a fair bit, even a tooth out could still work i am guessing but that is a bit extreme.
At 11:30 in the video Bernie moves the " cam phaser " of the variable valve timing system by some 20 degrees whilst the engine is running by energizing the solinoid with his diagnostic tool, you can see the timing of the red trace moving to the left with respect to the other traces thereby advancing the one cam shaft with respect to the other shafts;

And here is how the cam chain tensioner works;

Seems to me he winds the pusher in by about 10 half turns of the screw driver which gives you an idea how much slack can be taken up during the cam chain's life span.

This tensioner pushes against a plastic cam chain guide over which the chain glides in the non loaded part of the run ( the slack part ) of the cam chain and is also assisted by the oil pressure inside the chain tensioner housing ( don't put the tensioner in upside down, you will block the oil supply to the tensioner housing making the chain running loose )

 

[dave]

Hi Max, thank you for the lessons, and the links to the videos. The Nissan repair is way above my level of expertise. I have two questions concerning the Honda cam chain tensioner, if you can reply to these please:

1. When reassembling a completely disassembled cam chain adjuster assembly, some people recommend adding additional torque to the spring by winding the adjustment screw tighter two, or more, revolutions,. What are your thoughts on this?

2. Some people recommend increasing the diameter of the oil hole in the cam chain tensioner assembly mounting gasket to increase oil flow, and presumably oil pressure, to increase the force the tensioner applies to the cam chain. What are your thoughts on this practice?

Thank you Max, your contributions are an incredible asset to this forum.
Hi Max, can I ask you a question about basic cam chain design operation and design? To compensate for chain and gear tooth wear, and manufacturing tolerances, a cam chain tensioner in used at the aft (non-tension) side of the chain. To compensate for wear, does the cam chain guide at the forward side (tension side) of the chain automatically adjust to maintain exact synchronization between the crankshaft and the cams?

Thank you Max.

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

I wouldn't be concerned whatsoever over the cam chain regardless of the miles on this bike.

The tensioner will take up the slack as designed- no fear of jumping teeth.

It will never break- and it will never be a concern to running / power.

Based on others experiences posted- I'd dare say most will waste money to ever do a valve adjustment even.

Maybe do it once to make yourself feel better....then move on...

 

[max]

There is a lot of wisdom in those six lines Dubs, glad you added your valuable comment.

Dave unless there is a good reason to increase the spring tension in the tensioner i also cannot see why someone would
want to load up the cam chain more than millions of bikes have been shown to be reliable with.

At the most you can count the turns and write them down as explained to satisfy yourself as Dubs mentioned.

Hope that answers your question, Cheers.

 

[max]

Addition to post # 10 in this thread;

Made a mistake in the third paragraph stating ; to compress the cam chain tensioner, i meant; to compress the SPRING inside the tensioner.

Thereby winding back the spring and releasing the tension on the cam chain

Since the tensioner is aAUTOMATIC there is no adjustment to be done.

Hope this helps.

 

[peterbaron]

Since i had my cb1000r new i started to take notes on the number of turns the cam chain tensioner had to the clockwise end stop from new.

Also counted the amount of turns on the cb1100 at 43.000 km which was 3,3 HALF turns ( 180 deg's );
condition; engine cold and not running
The cb1100 is now at 70.000 km and the half turns have increased to 3.5 turns, just checked now.

Made a tool to wind back and compress the camchain and used this to measure the amount of turns, just undo the cam chain tensioner bolt and insert the tool, just be aware there is some oil pressure ( when the engine is running to help tension the cam chain ) just behind this m6 bolt which has an aluminum washer to stop this oil from leaking, i manage to re use the washer by locating the cross back into the slots before just nipping the bolt up without over tightning it.





And dimensions for the tool i use;



And the cam tensioner data as written down for a comparison;



So it may pay to check yours and write it down to compare over time/km's.
Values may vary between bikes but if yours are not showing excessive increases it may be
unnessary to worry about it, diagnose before repair is not a bad strategy.

Also remember that the tensioner uses "ratchet non return stops" to maintain tension on the chain, so depending on where the ratchet stops are the chain may be a bit looser or firmer but the oil pressure keeps the chain tensioned up when the engine is running.

So your query is a very good one and hope these tips help to make a decision which you do not regret later mixed in together with other member's findings.

Ohh nearly forgot; any valves out of spec?

Cheers sync'

Addition to post # 10 in this thread;

Made a mistake in the third paragraph stating ; to compress the cam chain tensioner, i meant; to compress the SPRING inside the tensioner.

Thereby winding back the spring and releasing the tension on the cam chain

Since the tensioner is aAUTOMATIC there is no adjustment to be done.

Hope this helps.

For clarity these two posts were put together

:beerchug: