Bike cutting fuel

[QUINTtastic_imp]

2014 deluxe here. So, my bike is randomly cutting fuel. Sometimes the pump works when turned on, sometimes not. But it has cut fuel in traffic twice now. Sometimes it just doesn’t start. I have the service manual but wow there are so many sensors and doodads. First thoughts are.. bad pump ($400)/ECU ($700)/or throttle bodies out of sync. It’s vibrating more and I’ve replaced relays. Who the heck knows. Any ideas before I take it to a dealer? Really difficult when you can’t replicate the issue. Intermittent problems SUCK. Only 12k miles on this bike.

 

[Cormanus]

When you say “sometimes the pump works when turned on” do you mean it cycles sometimes and doesn’t others?

Flynrider reported an issue with his kill switch which caused a similar problem. There’s also been lots of discussion about old batteries here, http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=14443

 

[Houtman_imp]

How old is your batterie , still the original ???

 

[max]

Quintastic we are trying to help you but you go round in circles.
There is a very important indication that flynnrider pointed out and we need to know if the following happens;

when the ignition key is switched on AND the pump does NOT make a sound;....IS THE ORANGE "CEL" LIGHT ON FOR 1 SECOND ?

this information narrows the possibilities down a lot, and without knowing the correct answer we are as stuck as you are on this issue.:huh:

 

[SportsterDoc]

In addition to answers from Max' post and Houtman's post:

1. What is battery voltage:
A. At idle?
B. At 2500 RPMs?

2. What is condition of both ends of both battery cables?

3. Have relays been removed and reconnected to "wipe" the connections?

4. How frequently/infrequently is the stop/run (AkA kill switch) used?

 

[QUINTtastic_imp]

When you say “sometimes the pump works when turned on” do you mean it cycles sometimes and doesn’t others?

Flynrider reported an issue with his kill switch which caused a similar problem. There’s also been lots of discussion about old batteries here, http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=14443

Yes some times it cycles, some times it doesn’t. I never use the kill switch but in testing via headlight connection and just simple operation of it, it works fine. Ugh modern technology

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Quintastic we are trying to help you but you go round in circles.
There is a very important indication that flynnrider pointed out and we need to know if the following happens;

when the ignition key is switched on AND the pump does NOT make a sound;....IS THE ORANGE "CEL" LIGHT ON FOR 1 SECOND ?

this information narrows the possibilities down a lot, and without knowing the correct answer we are as stuck as you are on this issue.:huh:

Yep the CEL light is perfectly normal. What’s difficult is it tends to die say.. in traffic on hot days which then my concern is only how get it home. (I’m a redhead, lol..)


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In addition to answers from Max' post and Houtman's post:

1. What is battery voltage:
A. At idle?
B. At 2500 RPMs?

2. What is condition of both ends of both battery cables?

3. Have relays been removed and reconnected to "wipe" the connections?

4. How frequently/infrequently is the stop/run (AkA kill switch) used?

I’m not sure of my voltage, but my battery is a year old, the cables are good as new, and when it starts it starts up almost immediately. Removing and reconnecting the relays seems to help. So difficult when I can’t just replicate the issue. I can drive fine for a week or two before it happens. And I never use the kill switch but I tested in the headlight, and used the switch a dozen times, it works fine. Intermittent issues suck..


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I’ve borrowed a power probe from a friend so tomorrow I’ll do more electrical testing. . It’s scheduled to go back to the dealer on the 8th.. yaaaaay.


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Sorry everyone, I appreciate your help, I don’t mean to be short or unresponsive. My dad passed away this week and my bike keeps dying and having issues, and it just got really hot out. I’m trying really hard to figure it out though.


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[max]

Here is what i think; if the orange c.e.light lights up as per normal that indicates that the e.c.m. has power and passed the selftest, the orange c.e.light is part of that test, if there was a malfunction the same light would start bilnking.

From that point on only two parts can be faulty;
1 the fuel cutout relay ( the one they replaced )
2 the fuelpump inside the tank.

Since the bike is almost new i think neither one is faulty, i think they removed the tank and have re-connected something in such a way that it is now unreliable like the 3 pole connector that is behind the left ( i think ) sidecover with the cb1100 emblem on it.
To check this the sidecover has to be removed ( easy to do ) and check if the connector with the brown, green/black and grey/black wires is pushed all the way in and if it is take it apart and check if all the connectors are seated correctly ( all look the same ) in the connector body.
If they are all fine have a look under the tank, it looks like this;





check that these wires are connected and not loose or broken.

Very difficult to find the cause of a problem that sometimes happened, but if the bike ran without a hitch before the engine etc. were removed that usually means something has not been put back correctly or has been damaged.

I think the fault just coincidentally cleared at the time they replaced the fuel cutoff relay but the relay was fine all along, the fault is still there, you proved that!

 

[Bazbro_imp]

My very first thought on reading the first post was "dodgy electrical connection".

As we know, the kill switch is a prime suspect, followed by any wiring recently disturbed, and then a laborious "disconnect/clean/reconnect", hoping you strike lucky. Use contact cleaner and work your way through the obvious connections first, as Max has outlined above.

And are you SURE that kill switch is OK...?

Good luck with this

 

[jtopiso_imp]

I don't know on the CB, but I've seen this problem on some old cars (die or run badly when hot) and the problem is usually caused by a bad welding (cold weld) on the fuel pump relay. Cheap to fix!

 

[the Ferret]

Our condolences on the loss of your father Quint.

 

[Cormanus]

Quintastic, I’m very sorry to read of the death of your father. Condolences.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Quint, sorry about your loss, and my condolences to you.

- - -

The issue still smells like a wiring issue that is exaggerated by heat (expansion). The kill switch is likely okay, however, my concern is the kill circuit (the wires). Is the issue any different, say for example if you turn your handlebars to the left or to the right?

Or, after a failure, AND you have not touched or moved the bike in any other way, does the bike starts up normally again - always? If so, it is not likely the kill switch circuit.

 

[QUINTtastic_imp]

I will say that the dealer shop who had it.. improperly routed so many wires. Also connected the fuel tank wrong. I reconnected it properly (wow what a freaking chore that is!! No space between the tank and frame for disconnecting...) but it still failed.

The problem is so intermittent. I’ve had it start up for 3 seconds and die, after a 10 minute ride and just a quick pop in to the pharmacy. Then start right back up and be fine.

I’ve pulled it out after no riding for a day or two and it wouldn’t start.

I’ve had it cut fuel and stall in traffic, both times while in the process of downshifting to corner

I’ve also had it cut fuel briefly but regain power and keep on driving


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Part of me wants to throw a fuel pump at it, for 400 dollars... because it does has many of the bad fuel pump symptoms. But I also find it odd for a 5 year old bike with 12k miles to have a bad pump. It’s going to the dealer on the 8th and they may or may not cover it depending on if they’re willing to admit they did a ****ty job on my bike.


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[GoldOxide_imp]

I will say that the dealer shop who had it.. improperly routed so many wires. Also connected the fuel tank wrong. I reconnected it properly (wow what a freaking chore that is!! No space between the tank and frame for disconnecting...) but it still failed.

The problem is so intermittent. I’ve had it start up for 3 seconds and die, after a 10 minute ride and just a quick pop in to the pharmacy. Then start right back up and be fine.

I’ve pulled it out after no riding for a day or two and it wouldn’t start.

I’ve had it cut fuel and stall in traffic, both times while in the process of downshifting to corner

I’ve also had it cut fuel briefly but regain power and keep on driving


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Part of me wants to throw a fuel pump at it, for 400 dollars... because it does has many of the bad fuel pump symptoms. But I also find it odd for a 5 year old bike with 12k miles to have a bad pump. It’s going to the dealer on the 8th and they may or may not cover it depending on if they’re willing to admit they did a ****ty job on my bike.


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Gee Quint, strong symptoms for a kill switch circuit wire issue. They all happen to fit. However, it doesn't mean that it is. Turn your steering to the left or right extreme and see if starting starts (or doesn't).

 

[pekingduck]

An engine that cuts out while driving is a very serious problem. Any responsible dealer would realize it is a huge legal liability, and address it immediately. The problem appears to have happened since the engine was removed, but could you please verify that.

The fuel pump and the fuel pump relay appear to be the areas of concern, but the more likely problem is an intermittent open circuit in the wire harness or a poor connection. Components generally are good or bad, not intermittent.

I've seen techs throw the same new parts at a problem, replacing the same component several times, before they figure out the problem is in the circuit, not the component.

Components are sometimes yanked loose at the multi-pin connector, and when they are plugged back in, it sometimes forces the metal connector out the back of the plastic junction block. Or a portion of the wire harness got pinched and broke the wires inside the insulation. The wire harness has to be carefully inspected for any signs of pinching or loose terminals.

 

[QUINTtastic_imp]

An engine that cuts out while driving is a very serious problem. Any responsible dealer would realize it is a huge legal liability, and address it immediately. The problem appears to have happened since the engine was removed, but could you please verify that.

The fuel pump and the fuel pump relay appear to be the areas of concern, but the more likely problem is an intermittent open circuit in the wire harness or a poor connection. Components generally are good or bad, not intermittent.

I've seen techs throw the same new parts at a problem, replacing the same component several times, before they figure out the problem is in the circuit, not the component.

Components are sometimes yanked loose at the multi-pin connector, and when they are plugged back in, it sometimes forces the metal connector out the back of the plastic junction block. Or a portion of the wire harness got pinched and broke the wires inside the insulation. The wire harness has to be carefully inspected for any signs of pinching or loose terminals.

Those are all very good points. I’m going to request a sit down with the regional Honda rep. I was lucky that both times it died I wasn’t on the highway or bottlenecked. So many wires in these harnesses and I highly doubt this dealer is going to take any responsibility financially despite all of their cuss ups. I have recently spent hours rerouting wires to their proper places because of their awful job.


Oh and yes, the problems only started once the engine was removed, and split. As well as the dealer gouging my frame down to the metal while removing it


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[SportsterDoc]

An engine that cuts out while driving is a very serious problem. Any responsible dealer would realize it is a huge legal liability, and address it immediately. The problem appears to have happened since the engine was removed, but could you please verify that.

The fuel pump and the fuel pump relay appear to be the areas of concern, but the more likely problem is an intermittent open circuit in the wire harness or a poor connection. Components generally are good or bad, not intermittent.

I've seen techs throw the same new parts at a problem, replacing the same component several times, before they figure out the problem is in the circuit, not the component.

Components are sometimes yanked loose at the multi-pin connector, and when they are plugged back in, it sometimes forces the metal connector out the back of the plastic junction block. Or a portion of the wire harness got pinched and broke the wires inside the insulation. The wire harness has to be carefully inspected for any signs of pinching or loose terminals.

Common electrical issue

Quintastic, I’m very sorry to read of the death of your father. Condolences.

Amen

 

[pekingduck]

Quint, I don't know who you have been speaking to at Honda, or if it was through the dealer, or if Honda is actually involved. But the engine cutting out problems you have are a serious safety concern and need to be addresed.

If you have just been going back and forth with the dealer only, the situation needs to be elevated if they are unable to fix it.

If you haven't already done so, I would recommend contacting American Honda's Motorcycle Customer Relations department either by phone or email. They will start a case and the District Service Manager will be made aware of it.

 

[QUINTtastic_imp]

Yeah I’ve contacted Honda. And I asked the dealer for a meeting with the district rep but the dealer said he doesn’t meet with customers. I dropped my bike off (it died on the way there lol) but they won’t be getting to it until the 8th or later. They really don’t care. They got my bike in almost a year ago and it’s still messed up, but worse. 8k for a 2014 Honda with 7000 miles, $1600 in repairs, and two summers without bike fun. For what? I wish I could sue them. Riding is my joy. I didn’t get to do one fun thing with my bike before it started breaking again. Sorry I’m just incredibly stressed and angry over this.


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[the Ferret]

As soon as they get it running trade it in. Not kidding.