Adjusted valve clearances. Now it's clicking...

J

Jurlie_imp

Running like a top
Thread starter
Hey all.

Today I've assembled my bike after replacing valve clearance shims; and was pretty unhappy to hear distinct clicking in the head around 4th cylinder when I've started the engine (intake I guess, but I'm not pretty sure).

Here is the data:
Clearance before (shim size) clearance after (shim size)
1.
ex1 0.31 (200) 0.25 (205)
ex2 0.33 (198) 0.28 (202)
in1 0.18 (202) 0.17 (205)
in2 0.19 (202) 0.14 (208)

2.
ex1 0.30 (192) 0.29 (195)
ex2 0.33 (192) 0.29 (198)
in1 0.18 (202) 0.15 (205)
in2 0.20 (198) 0.13 (202)

3.
ex1 0.32 (190) 0.28 (195)
ex2 0.32 (190) 0.26 (195)
in1 0.19 (198) 0.14 (202)
in2 0.19 (195) 0.14 (200)

4.
ex1 0.30 (190) 0.30 (192)
ex2 0.30 (190) 0.29 (192)
in1 0.21 (195) 0.13 (202)
in2 0.21 (198) 0.12 (205)


As you can see intake clearances of 4th cyl are on tight end. Might it be the reason of clicking? Do I disassemble it again and put thinner shims?
Is it possible I've done something wrong during assembly?

I've got a copy of service manual, I was doing everything just as written (except of I used just motor oil instead of molybdenum oil solution and molybdenum grease for camshafts and shim buckets respectively), but it is possible I could do some mistake...

Any ideas are welcome!
 
Jurlie i wouldn't inmediately panic, first have a good listen to the engine, most produce a tick that seems to come from the RIGHT lower crankcase.

Not sure exactly what produces it but it's there, take a screwdriver and use it as a stethoscope by holding the handle against your ear and push the steel end against the engine, see if the ticking comes from the head or somewhere else
Sometimes a video camera can be of help as you record the sound around different parts of the engine.

Understand that you put the shims on top of the valves in their recess with the text facing up and then lowered the buckets on top of them, aligned the sprockets correctly ( easy to mix in and out markings up ) tighten all the bolts on the camshaft top covers, put the chain guard back on and tighten it, released the chain tensioner ( so the chain does not jump a tooth ) and then back the tension one quarter turn ( to relieve the downward tension of the camshafts ) before checking all valve clearances for the last time?

I find it hard to believe that the valves tick when the clearance is too tight, especially with a cold engine.

Wait and think it through whilst other members ( with more experience than me ) give their opinion, in the mean time don't ride the cb yet, i guess in a pinch you can undo the cover, lift it enough to check the fourth cylinder clearances.
 
Thread starter
Thanks for your comments,

max_imp said:
Jurlie i wouldn't inmediately panic, first have a good listen to the engine, most produce a tick that seems to come from the RIGHT lower crankcase.

Not sure exactly what produces it but it's there, take a screwdriver and use it as a stethoscope by holding the handle against your ear and push the steel end against the engine, see if the ticking comes from the head or somewhere else
Sometimes a video camera can be of help as you record the sound around different parts of the engine.

Understand that you put the shims on top of the valves in their recess with the text facing up and then lowered the buckets on top of them, aligned the sprockets correctly ( easy to mix in and out markings up ) tighten all the bolts on the camshaft top covers, put the chain guard back on and tighten it, released the chain tensioner ( so the chain does not jump a tooth ) and then back the tension one quarter turn ( to relieve the downward tension of the camshafts ) before checking all valve clearances for the last time?

I find it hard to believe that the valves tick when the clearance is too tight, especially with a cold engine.

Wait and think it through whilst other members ( with more experience than me ) give their opinion, in the mean time don't ride the cb yet, i guess in a pinch you can undo the cover, lift it enough to check the fourth cylinder clearances.
Click to expand...
I've done exactly by this instruction (including shim marking towards bucket, I paid special attention to that)

max_imp said:
Jurlie i wouldn't inmediately panic, first have a good listen to the engine, most produce a tick that seems to come from the RIGHT lower crankcase.

Not sure exactly what produces it but it's there, take a screwdriver and use it as a stethoscope by holding the handle against your ear and push the steel end against the engine, see if the ticking comes from the head or somewhere else
Sometimes a video camera can be of help as you record the sound around different parts of the engine.

Understand that you put the shims on top of the valves in their recess with the text facing up and then lowered the buckets on top of them, aligned the sprockets correctly ( easy to mix in and out markings up ) tighten all the bolts on the camshaft top covers, put the chain guard back on and tighten it, released the chain tensioner ( so the chain does not jump a tooth ) and then back the tension one quarter turn ( to relieve the downward tension of the camshafts ) before checking all valve clearances for the last time?

I find it hard to believe that the valves tick when the clearance is too tight, especially with a cold engine.

Wait and think it through whilst other members ( with more experience than me ) give their opinion, in the mean time don't ride the cb yet, i guess in a pinch you can undo the cover, lift it enough to check the fourth cylinder clearances.
Click to expand...
No... I measured clearances without releasing tensioner at all (I mean the tensioner was in work position. How does it affect?

I'll listen to it carefully tomorrow, where exactly it ticks, but I'm pretty sure there was no that distinct ticking before...
 
Could it be before this the engine is noisier hence you can't hear the tick sound? After you reduce the valve clearance the camshaft made less noise and now you can hear the ticking sound? I agree with max here. I always thought tighter clearance made less sound.
 
Thread starter
zirconxi_imp said:
Could it be before this the engine is noisier hence you can't hear the tick sound? After you reduce the valve clearance the camshaft made less noise and now you can hear the ticking sound? I agree with max here. I always thought tighter clearance made less sound.
Click to expand...
That's totally could be possible. The suspicious thing is that ticking can be heard on just one side of engine.
 
Jurlie i also left my tensioner in the "work"position, normally the valve springs push the camshaft up against the top journals, but with the small tolerances and with some wear over time it may be that the chain tries to pull it down far enough to influence the readings if you don't have a lot of experience adjusting valve clearances, in short you're ok.

just had another thought; are all your spark plug caps on properly? could be a spark tick.
 
Jurlie_imp said:
Hey all.

Today I've assembled my bike after replacing valve clearance shims; and was pretty unhappy to hear distinct clicking in the head around 4th cylinder when I've started the engine (intake I guess, but I'm not pretty sure).

Here is the data:
Clearance before (shim size) clearance after (shim size)
1.
ex1 0.31 (200) 0.25 (205)
ex2 0.33 (198) 0.28 (202)
in1 0.18 (202) 0.17 (205)
in2 0.19 (202) 0.14 (208)

2.
ex1 0.30 (192) 0.29 (195)
ex2 0.33 (192) 0.29 (198)
in1 0.18 (202) 0.15 (205)
in2 0.20 (198) 0.13 (202)

3.
ex1 0.32 (190) 0.28 (195)
ex2 0.32 (190) 0.26 (195)
in1 0.19 (198) 0.14 (202)
in2 0.19 (195) 0.14 (200)

4.
ex1 0.30 (190) 0.30 (192)
ex2 0.30 (190) 0.29 (192)
in1 0.21 (195) 0.13 (202)
in2 0.21 (198) 0.12 (205)


As you can see intake clearances of 4th cyl are on tight end. Might it be the reason of clicking? Do I disassemble it again and put thinner shims?
Is it possible I've done something wrong during assembly?

I've got a copy of service manual, I was doing everything just as written (except of I used just motor oil instead of molybdenum oil solution and molybdenum grease for camshafts and shim buckets respectively), but it is possible I could do some mistake...

Any ideas are welcome!
Click to expand...
I don't think, the sound comes from the valve drive. Idea: check the fit of the PAIR valves. Does the sound change when opening/closing the throttle while riding?
 
i was wondering something similar to this, though I don't have even 1/10th the mechanical knowledge of the OP. I noticed i could hear a more pronounced sound that I assumed was the sound of the valves while idling after i opened up my exhaust and removed the 'cat. It's a noise i could hear on videos of other bikes with open exhausts, though, so i determined it was normal. maybe it's time for a valve check...
 
Missed the part where you mention moly assembly lube, although recommended i think if you oil the three points that rely on oil; both sides of the shims, outside of the buckets and under the cam lobes ( and of course all the camshaft bearings ) then rotate the engine a couple times by hand to let the new parts settle and squeeze the excess oil from the gaps under the cams you set the engine up in no different way than every time you shut it off normally and then measure the clearances that should be just fine, by the way 0.12 mm. is within spec so no worries there
 
I agree with Max about tracing the noise source. A stethoscope is an inexpensive and extremely accurate way to track the noise source. I have traced failing main bearings with one. You can buy one at Harbor Freight for less than $4.

Do not recommend oiling either side of the shim, or the cam follower bucket and valve stem where the shim contacts, only on the bucket's outer surface. These shims don't wear, and oil can prevent the shims from properly seating, and give an inaccurate reading.
 
Thread starter
Guys, thanks for advices and suggestions. I'll go for stethoscope tomorrow.
Today I was hearing it using wrench. Doesn't seem like it is valves at all. Maybe PAIR valves (btw what is it for and how it works?) or whatever else is in between tank and engine head.

Tried to ride. Engine works well and smoothly as always. Ticking gets much louder when I accelerate agressively, and becomes almost indistinct when I close the throttle and roll by momentum.

Here is the the video from right handside

and from left handside

You can hear easily that ticking get louder when I open the throttle in first video. On acceleration during the ride (when the engine gets actual load) it gets much louder that this.
On left handside it is barely audible.

At least I don't need to open the engine again...
 
Pulsed Air valves are a secondary air ( Oxygen ) supply into the exhaust system to help burn the gas more complete thereby reducing emissions from the exhaust, this guy explains it fairly well;

Listening to your first video ( see how useful that is? ) i would suggest having a look at the exhaust flange nuts on the cylinder head and see if any are loose, don't overtighten, just check if any are loose, could be exhaust gas escaping under load.
You could listen with a small plastic aquarium hose to pinpoint the noise if it is exhaust gas.
Congratulations on the fine job on the valves and all the notes on the measurements.

Peking duck thanks for the tip on ( not ) lubricating the shims, i see what you mean now.
 
Jurlie_imp said:
Guys, thanks for advices and suggestions. I'll go for stethoscope tomorrow.
Today I was hearing it using wrench. Doesn't seem like it is valves at all. Maybe PAIR valves (btw what is it for and how it works?) or whatever else is in between tank and engine head.

Tried to ride. Engine works well and smoothly as always. Ticking gets much louder when I accelerate agressively, and becomes almost indistinct when I close the throttle and roll by momentum.

Here is the the video from right handside

and from left handside

You can hear easily that ticking get louder when I open the throttle in first video. On acceleration during the ride (when the engine gets actual load) it gets much louder that this.
On left handside it is barely audible.

At least I don't need to open the engine again...
Click to expand...
This right hand side video sound just like my bike. Mine sound like this after i drop the bike stationary and it hit my 4-2-1 full system. Mine the sound kind of emit from the joints pipe in between the header and mid pipe...maybe its related.
 
Jurlie_imp said:
Guys, thanks for advices and suggestions. I'll go for stethoscope tomorrow.
Today I was hearing it using wrench. Doesn't seem like it is valves at all. Maybe PAIR valves (btw what is it for and how it works?) or whatever else is in between tank and engine head.

Tried to ride. Engine works well and smoothly as always. Ticking gets much louder when I accelerate agressively, and becomes almost indistinct when I close the throttle and roll by momentum.

Here is the the video from right handside

and from left handside

You can hear easily that ticking get louder when I open the throttle in first video. On acceleration during the ride (when the engine gets actual load) it gets much louder that this.
On left handside it is barely audible.

At least I don't need to open the engine again...
Click to expand...
Actually, a good capture of the symptom. Sometimes people have trouble capturing these types of sounds.
 
Jurlie_imp said:
Guys, thanks for advices and suggestions. I'll go for stethoscope tomorrow.
Today I was hearing it using wrench. Doesn't seem like it is valves at all. Maybe PAIR valves (btw what is it for and how it works?) or whatever else is in between tank and engine head.

Tried to ride. Engine works well and smoothly as always. Ticking gets much louder when I accelerate agressively, and becomes almost indistinct when I close the throttle and roll by momentum.

Here is the the video from right handside

and from left handside

You can hear easily that ticking get louder when I open the throttle in first video. On acceleration during the ride (when the engine gets actual load) it gets much louder that this.
On left handside it is barely audible.

At least I don't need to open the engine again...
Click to expand...
That supports my idea, that it's a PAIR valve. That's a metallic membrane at the outlet which opens by low pressure caused by the exhaust gas flow, to suck O2 into the exhaust gas to burn the rest of the CO.

I think you may have touched it, when removing the cover of the valve drive. May be the membrane now has some contact to the metallic case and thus transports its noise.
 
Thread starter
Django_imp said:
Jurlie_imp said:
Guys, thanks for advices and suggestions. I'll go for stethoscope tomorrow.
Today I was hearing it using wrench. Doesn't seem like it is valves at all. Maybe PAIR valves (btw what is it for and how it works?) or whatever else is in between tank and engine head.

Tried to ride. Engine works well and smoothly as always. Ticking gets much louder when I accelerate agressively, and becomes almost indistinct when I close the throttle and roll by momentum.

Here is the the video from right handside

and from left handside

You can hear easily that ticking get louder when I open the throttle in first video. On acceleration during the ride (when the engine gets actual load) it gets much louder that this.
On left handside it is barely audible.

At least I don't need to open the engine again...
Click to expand...
That supports my idea, that it's a PAIR valve. That's a metallic membrane at the outlet which opens by low pressure caused by the exhaust gas flow, to suck O2 into the exhaust gas to burn the rest of the CO.

I think you may have touched it, when removing the cover of the valve drive. May be the membrane now has some contact to the metallic case and thus transports its noise.
Click to expand...
Thanks for the idea! I'll check it as soon as I'll get to my bike.
 
Django_imp said:
Jurlie_imp said:
Guys, thanks for advices and suggestions. I'll go for stethoscope tomorrow.
Today I was hearing it using wrench. Doesn't seem like it is valves at all. Maybe PAIR valves (btw what is it for and how it works?) or whatever else is in between tank and engine head.

Tried to ride. Engine works well and smoothly as always. Ticking gets much louder when I accelerate agressively, and becomes almost indistinct when I close the throttle and roll by momentum.

Here is the the video from right handside

and from left handside

You can hear easily that ticking get louder when I open the throttle in first video. On acceleration during the ride (when the engine gets actual load) it gets much louder that this.
On left handside it is barely audible.

At least I don't need to open the engine again...
Click to expand...
That supports my idea, that it's a PAIR valve. That's a metallic membrane at the outlet which opens by low pressure caused by the exhaust gas flow, to suck O2 into the exhaust gas to burn the rest of the CO.

I think you may have touched it, when removing the cover of the valve drive. May be the membrane now has some contact to the metallic case and thus transports its noise.
Click to expand...
That supports my idea, that it's a PAIR valve. That's a metallic membrane at the outlet which opens by low pressure caused by the exhaust gas flow, to suck O2 into the exhaust gas to burn the rest of the CO.

I think you may have touched it, when removing the cover of the valve drive. May be the membrane now has some contact to the metallic case and thus transports its noise.
Forum member support at its finest!
 
Thread starter
Django_imp said:
Part 3, 5 and 8 in the drawing:
Cylinder head cover for Honda CB 1100 2010 - Honda
Click to expand...
I didn't touch those...
I listened to my bike with the stethoscope, and wasn't able to localize this ticking sound to any particular part of the engine.
Everything being touched by stethoscope sounds differently that I can hear by ears, including PAIR valve places.
Maybe just this one I point by the needle in the picture. Rhythm is the same, but here it didn't get louder while throttling.

Have to check all bolts and nuts.
 
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