About the problem of high idling. (2014 cb1100ex)

[DDUMZI_imp]

hi, i'm ddumzi from korea

Posts a post in the first thread after signing up.

I am sorry for my weak English..

Current cb status.(

)[/php]

I read the thread related to high idle for about a month from page 1 to end, and replaced the problematic iacv with an improvement.

Preheating at 1500 rpm during the initial cold start will bring it down to 1000 rpm, and it will go up to 1500 rpm again after running.

After 20 minutes of starting at 1500 RPM and re-igniting, it will be fixed at 1000 RPM and then high idling issues will occur again as it is driven.

I don't think it's an ECM problem because the RPM has not been lowered and the engine is turned off yet. Even if it is a problem, this product is domestic product in Japan, and ECM update or reflash is not possible at the Korea Honda Service Center.

The current work details are TPS readjustment, IACV replacement, EOT sensor (part order completed, not yet replaced)

On the scanner, the O2 sensor-related circuit low is occasionally displayed. I wonder if the RPM could increase due to this problem.



I really want to solve this problem.
I'd like to get the advice of the forum members.

 

[Cormanus]

Welcome to the forum DDUMZI. I'm sure the experts will be along to help soon.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Welcome to the Forum DDUMZI.

This CB1100 symptom has been documented more than a few times in this searchable Forum. May your quest for the answer end in some satisfaction.

 

[SportsterDoc]

환영합니다, 번거롭게 해서 죄송합니다

hwan-yeonghabnida, beongeolobge haeseo joesonghabnida

(welcome, sorry for your troubles)

1. Replaced IACV with new or used?
2. Which IACV part number?
3. Is TPS wiring in good condition?


I am leaving in a couple hours to ride to north rim of grand canyon, so there may be a delay seeing your response, but others will help

From post 1309 summary in the idle instability thread:

Just glancing at FSM pages 5-15 and 5-16 shows how well the CB1100 will continue to perform with many sensor codes.

If the EOT is wonky, the only issue is hard starting cold.

If the IAT is wonky, default is 95 F.

If TPS is wonky, default is 0 degrees position

If an O2 sensor is wonky, "engine operates normally"

There has been an issue of TPS wiring in the idle instability thread, but if a NEW IACV is used, preferably the latest part number: then an upgraded ECU may solve the issue.

1. IACV를 새것으로 교체했습니까 아니면 중고로 교체했습니까?
2. 어떤 IACV 부품 번호입니까?
3. TPS 배선은 양호한가?


나는 두 시간 후에 그랜드 캐년의 노스 림으로 갈 예정이므로 귀하의 응답을 보는 데 지연이 있을 수 있지만 다른 사람들이 도와줄 것입니다.

유휴 불안정 스레드의 게시물 1309 요약에서:

FSM 페이지 5-15 및 5-16을 보면 CB1100이 많은 센서 코드와 함께 계속해서 얼마나 잘 작동하는지 알 수 있습니다.

EOT가 불안정하다면 유일한 문제는 콜드 스타트가 어렵다는 것입니다.

IAT가 불안정한 경우 기본값은 95F입니다.

TPS가 불안정한 경우 기본값은 0도 위치입니다.

O2 센서가 불안정하면 "엔진이 정상적으로 작동합니다"

유휴 불안정 스레드에서 TPS 배선 문제가 있었지만 NEW IACV를 사용하는 경우 가급적 최신 부품 번호를 사용하는 것이 좋습니다. 그러면 업그레이드된 ECU가 문제를 해결할 수 있습니다.

1. IACVleul saegeos-eulo gyochehaessseubnikka animyeon jung-golo gyochehaessseubnikka?
2. eotteon IACV bupum beonhoibnikka?
3. TPS baeseon-eun yanghohanga?


naneun du sigan hue geulaendeu kaenyeon-ui noseu lim-eulo gal yejeong-imeulo gwihaui eungdab-eul boneun de jiyeon-i iss-eul su issjiman daleun salamdeul-i dowajul geos-ibnida.

yuhyu bul-anjeong seuledeuui gesimul 1309 yoyag-eseo:

FSM peiji 5-15 mich 5-16eul bomyeon CB1100i manh-eun senseo kodeuwa hamkke gyesoghaeseo eolmana jal jagdonghaneunji al su issseubnida.

EOTga bul-anjeonghadamyeon yuilhan munjeneun koldeu seutateuga eolyeobdaneun geos-ibnida.

IATga bul-anjeonghan gyeong-u gibongabs-eun 95Fibnida.

TPSga bul-anjeonghan gyeong-u gibongabs-eun 0do wichiibnida.

O2 senseoga bul-anjeonghamyeon "enjin-i jeongsangjeog-eulo jagdonghabnida"

yuhyu bul-anjeong seuledeueseo TPS baeseon munjega iss-eossjiman NEW IACVleul sayonghaneun gyeong-u gageubjeog choesin bupum beonholeul sayonghaneun geos-i johseubnida. geuleomyeon eobgeuleideudoen ECUga munjeleul haegyeolhal su issseubnida.

 

[DDUMZI_imp]

Welcome to the forum DDUMZI. I'm sure the experts will be along to help soon.

Thank you very much for your welcome. ^^

Welcome to the Forum DDUMZI.

This CB1100 symptom has been documented more than a few times in this searchable Forum. May your quest for the answer end in some satisfaction.

As one of the people I really want to solve this problem... I really want to see the end of this problem in any form. Thank you.
Thank you for your detailed

환영합니다, 번거롭게 해서 죄송합니다

hwan-yeonghabnida, beongeolobge haeseo joesonghabnida

(welcome, sorry for your troubles)

1. Replaced IACV with new or used?
2. Which IACV part number?
3. Is TPS wiring in good condition?


I am leaving in a couple hours to ride to north rim of grand canyon, so there may be a delay seeing your response, but others will help

From post 1309 summary in the idle instability thread:

Just glancing at FSM pages 5-15 and 5-16 shows how well the CB1100 will continue to perform with many sensor codes.

If the EOT is wonky, the only issue is hard starting cold.

If the IAT is wonky, default is 95 F.

If TPS is wonky, default is 0 degrees position

If an O2 sensor is wonky, "engine operates normally"

There has been an issue of TPS wiring in the idle instability thread, but if a NEW IACV is used, preferably the latest part number: then an upgraded ECU may solve the issue.

1. IACV를 새것으로 교체했습니까 아니면 중고로 교체했습니까?
2. 어떤 IACV 부품 번호입니까?
3. TPS 배선은 양호한가?


나는 두 시간 후에 그랜드 캐년의 노스 림으로 갈 예정이므로 귀하의 응답을 보는 데 지연이 있을 수 있지만 다른 사람들이 도와줄 것입니다.

유휴 불안정 스레드의 게시물 1309 요약에서:

FSM 페이지 5-15 및 5-16을 보면 CB1100이 많은 센서 코드와 함께 계속해서 얼마나 잘 작동하는지 알 수 있습니다.

EOT가 불안정하다면 유일한 문제는 콜드 스타트가 어렵다는 것입니다.

IAT가 불안정한 경우 기본값은 95F입니다.

TPS가 불안정한 경우 기본값은 0도 위치입니다.

O2 센서가 불안정하면 "엔진이 정상적으로 작동합니다"

유휴 불안정 스레드에서 TPS 배선 문제가 있었지만 NEW IACV를 사용하는 경우 가급적 최신 부품 번호를 사용하는 것이 좋습니다. 그러면 업그레이드된 ECU가 문제를 해결할 수 있습니다.

1. IACVleul saegeos-eulo gyochehaessseubnikka animyeon jung-golo gyochehaessseubnikka?
2. eotteon IACV bupum beonhoibnikka?
3. TPS baeseon-eun yanghohanga?


naneun du sigan hue geulaendeu kaenyeon-ui noseu lim-eulo gal yejeong-imeulo gwihaui eungdab-eul boneun de jiyeon-i iss-eul su issjiman daleun salamdeul-i dowajul geos-ibnida.

yuhyu bul-anjeong seuledeuui gesimul 1309 yoyag-eseo:

FSM peiji 5-15 mich 5-16eul bomyeon CB1100i manh-eun senseo kodeuwa hamkke gyesoghaeseo eolmana jal jagdonghaneunji al su issseubnida.

EOTga bul-anjeonghadamyeon yuilhan munjeneun koldeu seutateuga eolyeobdaneun geos-ibnida.

IATga bul-anjeonghan gyeong-u gibongabs-eun 95Fibnida.

TPSga bul-anjeonghan gyeong-u gibongabs-eun 0do wichiibnida.

O2 senseoga bul-anjeonghamyeon "enjin-i jeongsangjeog-eulo jagdonghabnida"

yuhyu bul-anjeong seuledeueseo TPS baeseon munjega iss-eossjiman NEW IACVleul sayonghaneun gyeong-u gageubjeog choesin bupum beonholeul sayonghaneun geos-i johseubnida. geuleomyeon eobgeuleideudoen ECUga munjeleul haegyeolhal su issseubnida.

Thank you for your detailed explanation.

1.iacv has been replaced with a new product.
2.After looking at the forum, I bought an improved product after 17 years.
3.TPS is close to 5V in the scanner, and zero adjustment was viewed and adjusted by the scanner, so there was no problem with the wiring.



It's 2 a.m. in Korea, and I want to hear your answer, but I think I'll fall asleep without realizing it.

 

[max]

Welcome to the forum DDUMZI. I'm sure the experts will be along to help soon.

Thank you very much for your welcome. ^^

Welcome to the Forum DDUMZI.

This CB1100 symptom has been documented more than a few times in this searchable Forum. May your quest for the answer end in some satisfaction.

As one of the people I really want to solve this problem... I really want to see the end of this problem in any form. Thank you.
Thank you for your detailed

환영합니다, 번거롭게 해서 죄송합니다

hwan-yeonghabnida, beongeolobge haeseo joesonghabnida

(welcome, sorry for your troubles)

1. Replaced IACV with new or used?
2. Which IACV part number?
3. Is TPS wiring in good condition?


I am leaving in a couple hours to ride to north rim of grand canyon, so there may be a delay seeing your response, but others will help

From post 1309 summary in the idle instability thread:

Just glancing at FSM pages 5-15 and 5-16 shows how well the CB1100 will continue to perform with many sensor codes.

If the EOT is wonky, the only issue is hard starting cold.

If the IAT is wonky, default is 95 F.

If TPS is wonky, default is 0 degrees position

If an O2 sensor is wonky, "engine operates normally"

There has been an issue of TPS wiring in the idle instability thread, but if a NEW IACV is used, preferably the latest part number: then an upgraded ECU may solve the issue.

1. IACV를 새것으로 교체했습니까 아니면 중고로 교체했습니까?
2. 어떤 IACV 부품 번호입니까?
3. TPS 배선은 양호한가?


나는 두 시간 후에 그랜드 캐년의 노스 림으로 갈 예정이므로 귀하의 응답을 보는 데 지연이 있을 수 있지만 다른 사람들이 도와줄 것입니다.

유휴 불안정 스레드의 게시물 1309 요약에서:

FSM 페이지 5-15 및 5-16을 보면 CB1100이 많은 센서 코드와 함께 계속해서 얼마나 잘 작동하는지 알 수 있습니다.

EOT가 불안정하다면 유일한 문제는 콜드 스타트가 어렵다는 것입니다.

IAT가 불안정한 경우 기본값은 95F입니다.

TPS가 불안정한 경우 기본값은 0도 위치입니다.

O2 센서가 불안정하면 "엔진이 정상적으로 작동합니다"

유휴 불안정 스레드에서 TPS 배선 문제가 있었지만 NEW IACV를 사용하는 경우 가급적 최신 부품 번호를 사용하는 것이 좋습니다. 그러면 업그레이드된 ECU가 문제를 해결할 수 있습니다.

1. IACVleul saegeos-eulo gyochehaessseubnikka animyeon jung-golo gyochehaessseubnikka?
2. eotteon IACV bupum beonhoibnikka?
3. TPS baeseon-eun yanghohanga?


naneun du sigan hue geulaendeu kaenyeon-ui noseu lim-eulo gal yejeong-imeulo gwihaui eungdab-eul boneun de jiyeon-i iss-eul su issjiman daleun salamdeul-i dowajul geos-ibnida.

yuhyu bul-anjeong seuledeuui gesimul 1309 yoyag-eseo:

FSM peiji 5-15 mich 5-16eul bomyeon CB1100i manh-eun senseo kodeuwa hamkke gyesoghaeseo eolmana jal jagdonghaneunji al su issseubnida.

EOTga bul-anjeonghadamyeon yuilhan munjeneun koldeu seutateuga eolyeobdaneun geos-ibnida.

IATga bul-anjeonghan gyeong-u gibongabs-eun 95Fibnida.

TPSga bul-anjeonghan gyeong-u gibongabs-eun 0do wichiibnida.

O2 senseoga bul-anjeonghamyeon "enjin-i jeongsangjeog-eulo jagdonghabnida"

yuhyu bul-anjeong seuledeueseo TPS baeseon munjega iss-eossjiman NEW IACVleul sayonghaneun gyeong-u gageubjeog choesin bupum beonholeul sayonghaneun geos-i johseubnida. geuleomyeon eobgeuleideudoen ECUga munjeleul haegyeolhal su issseubnida.

Thank you for your detailed explanation.

1.iacv has been replaced with a new product.
2.After looking at the forum, I bought an improved product after 17 years.
3.TPS is close to 5V in the scanner, and zero adjustment was viewed and adjusted by the scanner, so there was no problem with the wiring.



It's 2 a.m. in Korea, and I want to hear your answer, but I think I'll fall asleep without realizing it.

Thanks for your detailed explanation, it seems that you are the only one who has not repaired the fault after replacing the iacv ( from memory ), do you know the part number of the new iacv?.

But there was a member who initially still had the issue with a new iacv installed however it cleared itself after some time, i suggest disconnecting the battery negative terminal for 1 hour and then re-connecting it.
Also try a "throttle reset" by switching the ignition key on with the red immobilizer switch in the run position ( the fuel pump primes ) and twisting the throttle open and close slowly twice and then turning the ignition key off again.


If you still have the old iacv i suggest running the bike until it is warmed up at 1000 rpm and switch it off with the ignition key.

This will leave the iacv in a good operating position for running the bike.
Now remove the black plastic cover and disconnect the iacv.
Use the old iacv and connect it to the 4 pole connector.
You can now ride the bike with the iacv in a fixed position, the orange mil light will not indicate a fault and the bike will not go into "limp mode" and limited to 5000 rpm.

Since you expect another fault; o2 sensor, tps, engine over temp sensor etc.
Go ride the bike and see if the fault still persist, this will eliminate the iacv as the problem.

Just an idea, thanks for reading the entire thread and your English is much better than my Korean

 

[SportsterDoc]

Sorry to not respond sooner but I've been in a no cell phone area for a few hours at the north rim of the Grand Canyon. Did 400 miles from Las Vegas to Kolob Canyon, Cedar Breaks, Duck Creek Jacob Lake, the north rim of the Grand Canyon snd back to Jacob Lake.

All good advice from Max. Strongly suggest that you follow all his advice. Max is in New Zealand only 3 hours later than you.

 

[dave]

Thanks for your detailed explanation, it seems that you are the only one who has not repaired the fault after replacing the iacv ( from memory ), do you know the part number of the new iacv?.

But there was a member who initially still had the issue with a new iacv installed however it cleared itself after some time,

Hi Max, a former member named Gordon (Gordo?) replaced his IACV and the problem was not corrected. He ended up selling his bike.

 

[SportsterDoc]

Good memory, Dave

https://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread...28&page=13

Wish we could have obtained answers for TPS voltages and ECM connections and/or heard from new owner

How are you, Debbi and Koni doing?

 

[Nachodaddy]

To be clear, my 2013 standard which I bought last Fall with around 4500 miles on it, developed the idle instability problem after I put fewer than 1000 miles on it. It did not show any problems when I first got it. I bought a new IACV and had it installed and the one that was removed looked like new. Part number 16430-MFJ-D01(for pre-2017 bikes.) The bike ran fine for about two weeks after the installation, then the high idle problem returned.
When the problem first started, it was the SLOW idle and engine dying problem.
Slow idle: Engine starts fine and idles about 1500. Ride off and after a few miles stop at a stop sign or light. Idle drops to 500. When throttle is increased to bring idle up, engine dies. Re-start requires more cranking than usual, then engine starts. Release clutch, give it gas to get rolling, engine dies. Hard cranking to start, engine starts and will die again (often in the middle of an intersection now) and requires attentive throttle control to keep it lit. Get it home and sit in driveway and let it idle. Idle goes down to 500 for a few minutes than slowly climbs back up to 1100 and stays, but will drop again if bike is ridden. After a few weeks of this, the slow idle problem went away and the high idle started. Haven't seen the slow idle return since the high idle started.
High idle: engine starts right up and idles at around 1800-2000. After idling for a few minutes, drops to 1500. Ride off and at first stop (stop sign 1/2 mile from my house) idle goes to 1500 or 2000. Otherwise bike rides fine. Sometimes it stays at 2000, other times at 1500.
At first it was always at 2000. I took the TPS off and sprayed the contacts really good with contact cleaner. The idle only went up to 1500 after that, but has started climbing back to 2000 after a few rides. I do not ride much now since the Summer heat has set in and temperatures only drop to 85 or 90F at night and go to 110+ in the daytime. Temperature in my garage is usually around 80-95F, so I don't feel much like messing with it now and don't know if the heat has anything to do with the way it acts.
Of course, disconnecting the TPS will get the expected result- runs fine with idle at 1100 and check engine light on. I don't rev it to 5K, but I am sure that is where it tops out.
I will not be trying any problem solving with it until temperatures drop back again the end of September. Or maybe never. It is just too frustrating. I did not buy this bike for this kind of disappointment.
I haven't taken it to a mechanic, because I don't have any confidence in their ability or willingness to fix it. My experience is that they will throw parts at it until I run out of money, or patience, but never fix it.
It is a shame Honda does not do something about it, as it has thoroughly destroyed any confidence I had in Honda products. I have a 2017 CRV, which is a fantastic car, but now I keep waiting for it to start acting up.
I cannot in good conscience sell the bike to another individual, so I am stuck with this useless lump. In all fairness, I can ride it, but the joy is gone. It is a great bike and I love riding it, but it is no longer fun.

 

[max]

Thanks Dave, i just remember that someone had a delayed repair but you're right, sometimes it does not work.
Also had another look at the spreadsheet for more background.

( Click on the picture for a better quality shot )

Have been using my scope to capture some iacv operations, here is what happens on startup;

Notice that the green trace leads to open the iacv, then returns some steps to arrive at the startup position.

Here is the turnaround point a bit clearer;

and here is what happens if you blip the throttle;

Notice the in-complete puses, the ecu just cuts them off regardless, i wonder what software changes they have made to the 2014 model's software to make this problem appear sometimes.....

 

[SportsterDoc]

Nacho, did you (a) disconnect ECU (key off) to "wipe" the contacts, also check condition of wires at connector and (b) that all contacts are fully seated in the ECU connector?

Be good to explore as many options as practical while this forum remains alive.

 

[Lord Popgun]

You know Max, I’m going to have to take a look at the scope video I made when we first started looking into this and compare it to yours. Edit: I don’t think I did the IACV. I know I did the speed sensor and front turn signal.


I wish Nacho was close by so I could hook up the diagnostic tool and o-scope and try to see what is going on better.

 

[PowerDubs_imp]

As someone that makes their living in an unrelated field that used to be mechanically driven and is now forced by modern standards to be electronic BS - much of this garbage is political grandstanding more so than actual benefit

Yes, having the idle be able to adjust itself for minutia may in theory show a reduction/ gain on paper but the associated cost of equipment, problems, and cost for said equipment both for production and replacement parts are not worth it in the end

– so we all know that motorcycles existed for many decades on a simple set screw for idle and even the early throttlebody fuel injected units so- is there not a way to backdate mechanically (there probably is since I have seen Honda throttlebody‘s that look very very very very similar with a mechanical throttle set screw) so let’s stop messing around and figure out how to “retrospec this“.

 

[max]

Cheers Popgun, i was just curious what i could do with my new automotive tool.
Once i got the voltage scale dialed in it was very easy to get the pulses displayed, it does a "deep record" function, i press "rec" , the scope starts rolling and records all the wave forms for a useful amount of time until i press "stop" and then i can two-finger zoom in to the place i want to have a look at and take a screenshot.
Here is the thing in question, the project is called " hs402 " it is a cheap samsung android tablet with an stm 32 micro board.
It uses two a/d converters for the two channels and a lot of on-board memory to collect and store the waveform data;



This will give you an idea how it works;

For what i wanted to do i just added four more inputs to the design with a potmeter each

Would be an eye opener to find out what the difference is between waveforms in an affected bike.

Question for Nachodaddy; when the bike plays up and you switch it off and back on again and initialize the iacv ; is the engine speed 1000 rpm?
And thanks for the explanation, it gives me more clues to work with, cheers.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Thanks Dave, i just remember that someone had a delayed repair but you're right, sometimes it does not work.
Also had another look at the spreadsheet for more background.

( Click on the picture for a better quality shot )

Have been using my scope to capture some iacv operations, here is what happens on startup;

Notice that the green trace leads to open the iacv, then returns some steps to arrive at the startup position.

Here is the turnaround point a bit clearer;

and here is what happens if you blip the throttle;

Notice the in-complete puses, the ecu just cuts them off regardless, i wonder what software changes they have made to the 2014 model's software to make this problem appear sometimes.....

Nice capture max, literally.

Question: Can you clarify what the Green Channel signal represents and what the Yellow Channel represents?

 

[max]

Sure, that's easy.
Imagine that the green one is your left leg and the yellow one is your right leg.
You step your green left leg forward first followed by your yellow right leg, take 50 or so steps forward and then you reverse the sequence by walking backwards.
That is what the iacv does, it has two sets of coils, coil a steps first followed by coil b, this moves the rotor in one direction, if you reverse the sequence; coil b first then coil a it reverses direction.
That's why it is called a " stepper motor "


The reason the iacv is taking so many steps is to make sure it is at the open end stop and then " stalls " or slips at the very end, then it takes as many steps in the closed direction as is determined by the engine temperature to arrive at 1000 rpm.

Both voltages are the same value but i reduced the size on the screen of the green one to make it look clearer to see the reversal in the sequence.

 

[peterbaron]

You know Max, I’m going to have to take a look at the scope video I made when we first started looking into this and compare it to yours. Edit: I don’t think I did the IACV. I know I did the speed sensor and front turn signal.


I wish Nacho was close by so I could hook up the diagnostic tool and o-scope and try to see what is going on better.

Oh ya!.....so now we have to use a scope for a turn signal to see if it works ??

 

[Nachodaddy]

Nacho, did you (a) disconnect ECU (key off) to "wipe" the contacts, also check condition of wires at connector and (b) that all contacts are fully seated in the ECU connector?

Be good to explore as many options as practical while this forum remains alive.

SportsterDoc,
I have not disconnected the ECU, but I have had the battery leads disconnected a couple of times changing out my battery maintainer leads. Haven't paid attention to changes in idle after that.
Is it possible to get to the ECU without removing the fuel tank? In the manual, the ECU is referred to as the ECM, right?
All the wires and connections look new and in excellent condition. I don't think this bike has ever been in the weather, except hot, dry weather.
Thanks for your help.
Prolly should get some RLETs just in case.

 

[GoldOxide_imp]

Sure, that's easy.
Imagine that the green one is your left leg and the yellow one is your right leg.
You step your green left leg forward first followed by your yellow right leg, take 50 or so steps forward and then you reverse the sequence by walking backwards.
That is what the iacv does, it has two sets of coils, coil a steps first followed by coil b, this moves the rotor in one direction, if you reverse the sequence; coil b first then coil a it reverses direction.
That's why it is called a " stepper motor "


The reason the iacv is taking so many steps is to make sure it is at the open end stop and then " stalls " or slips at the very end, then it takes as many steps in the closed direction as is determined by the engine temperature to arrive at 1000 rpm.

Both voltages are the same value but i reduced the size on the screen of the green one to make it look clearer to see the reversal in the sequence.

That's great max - thx.

Can you quote the module signal labels or pin IDs (or an image showing "where") you hung your probes off for membership folks who wish to repeat your results for themselves?

Maybe you have elsewhere in the Forum - so maybe just re-paste the URL here. This is useful info for those who may encounter similar run-time behaviour challenges and may wish to compare.