2013 Optional ABS VS 2014 Deluxe ABS

[the Ferret]

Interestingly (at least for me) today I was pondering Honda's myriad of systems for their disc brakes. ABS, C-ABS and Linked ABS
I thought the 14 DLX had C-ABS (Combined ABS linking front and rear braking) but now I don't think it does. I did some experimenting and my rear brake does not affect my front brake in any way. This can be demonstrated by popping the bike on the centerstand, getting the front wheel off the ground, spinning the wheel and hitting the rear brake lever. If the brakes were linked, it would stop the front wheel but not with the same gusto that hitting the front brake lever does. So off to the dealer I go in search of answers. Of course they can't tell me much, but pouring over the service manual back in the shop, I noticed bikes with linked ABS have 2 hydraulic lines running to the r/f brake caliper. The DLX only has one, and only one going to the left front brake caliper

Looking at the Honda ad info for the two years/models notice the carefully worded text. (bold italicized and underline is my emphasis)

2013 ABS optional

The CB1100 features front and rear disc brakes, and the thoroughly modern option of Honda’s Combined Anti-lock Brake System. That makes for powerful, sure stops. Because you never know what the open road is going to throw at you.


2014 Deluxe

Honda’s original CB750 introduced disc brakes to motorcycling’s mainstream. The new CB1100 offers triple discs with huge calipers for excellent stopping ability. The CB1100 Deluxe adds ABS for confident stopping in more challenging conditions.

I now think the DLX has ABS but the ABS on each wheel operates independently. The brakes are not linked in any way. Personally I like that.

Did anyone else think the DLX's brakes were linked?


.

 

[Stichill]

This is interesting. My 2012 CBR250R has Combined ABS.

The front caliper has three pistons, whereas the non-ABS bike has two pistons. There is also more pad area on the ABS model. There are two hoses going to the front ABS caliper. One hose is connected to the front lever and operates the outer two pistons. The second hose is connected to the rear pedal through a delay valve and operates the center piston.

Some CBR250R riders who track their bikes in 250-class racing rely 100% on the front lever only for their braking. They report the ABS model being out-braked by the non-ABS models and the Ninja 250s.

Here's the reason, IMO: Honda engineers started with the supposition that for street riding, maximum straightline braking performance occurs with simultaneous use of the front lever and rear pedal. Maximum kinetic energy dissipated as heat on two rotors. Proper front lever technique calls for "brush and bury," that is, "brush" the front brakes to load and set the front forks, then "bury" the lever to squeeze the disk for all it's worth.

With Combined ABS, if the rider (let's presume, newer and less experienced) "grabs a handful of front brake" in a panic...they are not really able to apply the full measure of "bury" force. So in effect they are "brushing" and loading the suspension with front lever. If they also apply rear pedal pressure, then after a delay through the valve, the rear pedal will apply pressure to the center piston of the front caliper. At this point we have the "bury" condition fully in effect. The new rider subsequently stops his/her ride at the maximum rate despite their imperfect braking skills.

It is noteworthy that the current-generations CBR300R with ABS no longer has Combined ABS and the second hose is gone from the front caliper. So Honda has apparently reconsidered their philosophy.

Some people despise Combined ABS. For me personally, it's a matter of understanding the system in place on the bike and using it appropriately. When I need to stop quickly with my Combined ABS, I use front lever and rear pedal. This is something I practice as well. Something I rarely do anymore, but did occasionally when I was learning to ride, is to apply some light rear pedal when I felt I was a little hot going into a corner. With C-ABS, this also gave me light pressure on the front brake (after a brief delay that I would say is 0.25 sec), which keeps the front suspension set correctly and results in safer mid-corner braking while leaned over.

 

[Rocky_imp]

Interesting observations ferret.
The brochure for the Canadian model clearly states that the CB1100 is fitted with linked ABS brakes, but in the owners manual it also clearly states "for full braking effectiveness, operate both the lever and pedal together."
It also says that the ABS will not operate at less than 6 mph (10 kph). You wouldn't think that linked brakes would be limited that way too.
On my bike each caliper has one brake line with an ABS line connected only to the right front disc and the rear disc which is also on the right.
From the shape of the front calipers it's quite obvious that they're both two-piston units.

 

[treytexag_imp]

Umm, I'm a little surprised here Mickey. I was under the distinct impression that my new DLX had combined ABS. Not sure whether I believed that was a good thing or a bad thing as I hadn't / haven't yet "played" with it to see what I thought about it.

But YES - I did believe my 14 DLX was combined ABS . . . . .

This is interesting indeed.

 

[Setchman_imp]

Interestingly (at least for me) today I was pondering Honda's myriad of systems for their disc brakes. ABS, C-ABS and Linked ABS
I thought the 14 DLX had C-ABS (Combined ABS linking front and rear braking) but now I don't think it does. I did some experimenting and my rear brake does not affect my front brake in any way. This can be demonstrated by popping the bike on the centerstand, getting the front wheel off the ground, spinning the wheel and hitting the rear brake lever. If the brakes were linked, it would stop the front wheel but not with the same gusto that hitting the front brake lever does. So off to the dealer I go in search of answers. Of course they can't tell me much, but pouring over the service manual back in the shop, I noticed bikes with linked ABS have 2 hydraulic lines running to the r/f brake caliper. The DLX only has one, and only one going to the left front brake caliper

Looking at the Honda ad info for the two years/models notice the carefully worded text. (bold italicized and underline is my emphasis)

2013 ABS optional

The CB1100 features front and rear disc brakes, and the thoroughly modern option of Honda’s Combined Anti-lock Brake System. That makes for powerful, sure stops. Because you never know what the open road is going to throw at you.


2014 Deluxe

Honda’s original CB750 introduced disc brakes to motorcycling’s mainstream. The new CB1100 offers triple discs with huge calipers for excellent stopping ability. The CB1100 Deluxe adds ABS for confident stopping in more challenging conditions.

I now think the DLX has ABS but the ABS on each wheel operates independently. The brakes are not linked in any way. Personally I like that.

Did anyone else think the DLX's brakes were linked?


.

Before doing the exact research that you have stated, I also thought it was a combined ABS system. I'm sure I was under that impression due to some independent reviews that mentioned the combined ABS being on the '14 DLX. They may have been early reviews that improperly assumed the '14s had the same system as the '13 ABS models. I also did the same "wheel spin" test that you mention and I agree with your conclusion. The 2014 DLX is not a combined ABS system.

 

[the Ferret]

Interesting observations ferret.
The brochure for the Canadian model clearly states that the CB1100 is fitted with linked ABS brakes, but in the owners manual it also clearly states "for full braking effectiveness, operate both the lever and pedal together."
It also says that the ABS will not operate at less than 6 mph (10 kph). You wouldn't think that linked brakes would be limited that way too.
On my bike each caliper has one brake line with an ABS line connected only to the right front disc and the rear disc which is also on the right.
From the shape of the front calipers it's quite obvious that they're both two-piston units.

Yes that is what got me to thinking Rocky. I was reading up on the different systems and one article said if it had a combined system they would be 3 pot calipers. I thought "hmm, I'm sure mine are two pot calipers" and that is what led me to start experimenting with the wheel spinning and hitting the rear brake pedal and then eventually digging for more info.

 

[Rocky_imp]

I don't know if I am (or should be) disappointed in this revelation, but I'm glad that I now know this and I thank you for bringing this up.
Probably like everyone else, I thought I had linked brakes because "the book said so."
I was riding as if I had linked brakes and wasn't having any problem at all since I usually apply both brakes at once anyway.
Oh dear, did Mr. Honda lie to us? Where is a weeping smiley when you need one

 

[treytexag_imp]

This article says the 14 DLX has linked ABS:

2014 Honda CB1100 Review

This one does too:

2015 Honda CB1100 Deluxe Review - The Modern Cafe

As does this one:

http://motorcycles.about.com/b/2014...eluxe-cbr650f-and-an-even-bigger-surprise.htm

So I guess these articles, and I'm sure there are others, is one of the reasons we believed there was linked ABS . . . .

 

[Lord Popgun]

For those with a '14 service manual, what does it say?

 

[treytexag_imp]

For those with a '14 service manual, what does it say?

I browsed it for about 20 minutes, did not find anything definitive in the manual.

 

[the Ferret]

Trey if you look back under servicing the ABS system in the back of the book, you will see some, what I'd call ghost drawings (where there are see through line drawings). One is of a single piped CB and one is of the dual piped CB and you can see the differences, in the braking components.

 

[treytexag_imp]

Trey if you look back under servicing the ABS system in the back of the book, you will see some, what I'd call ghost drawings (where there are see through line drawings). One is of a single piped CB and one is of the dual piped CB and you can see the differences, in the braking components.

Mickey - I did glance at those but I didn't see anything there that told me that the DLX has a combo ABS or not - what am I missing? I'm looking at pages 15-2 and 15-3 . . .

BTW, on page 15-2 for the '13 CB1100A model it shows one front brake line between the modulator and the delay valve. What is the delay valve used for?

 

[BestStandard_imp]

This is my first post, I'll have to introduce myself later. I just compared parts between the 13 ABS and the 14 DLX, the 13 has three pot calipers and the 14 does not. In fact, the 14 uses the same two pot calipers as the standard model!! The 13 ABS module is also different from the 14 module, with the 13 having more lines. I also looked for pictures of a 13 ABS and they show silver painted three pot calipers with extra lines compared to the black two pot calipers on the DLX and Standard. So it appears Honda did remove the linked brake system from the DLX.

 

[the Ferret]

Trey if you look back under servicing the ABS system in the back of the book, you will see some, what I'd call ghost drawings (where there are see through line drawings). One is of a single piped CB and one is of the dual piped CB and you can see the differences, in the braking components.

Mickey - I did glance at those but I didn't see anything there that told me that the DLX has a combo ABS or not - what am I missing? I'm looking at pages 15-2 and 15-3 . . .

BTW, on page 15-2 for the '13 CB1100A model it shows one front brake line between the modulator and the delay valve. What is the delay valve used for?

Mickey - I did glance at those but I didn't see anything there that told me that the DLX has a combo ABS or not - what am I missing? I'm looking at pages 15-2 and 15-3 . . .

BTW, on page 15-2 for the '13 CB1100A model it shows one front brake line between the modulator and the delay valve. What is the delay valve used for?
Yea I was at the shop using their manual so going by memory here. the delay valve links the rear brake with the right front caliper I believe. When you depress the brake lever fluid goes thru the delay valve and then pushes the center piston on the right front caliper (which should show 2 brake hoses on the 13 C-ABS model) activating some front brake. At least that's how I understand it.

If you look at the ghost image of the 2 piper, there is no such setup and only a single hose to the r/f caliper.

 

[treytexag_imp]

Yep, that's it. Got it now. Two lines on the '13 linked ABS (to the front brakes), only 1 on the '14 DLX ABS (to the front brakes). Thanks for explaining it sir.

 

[BestStandard_imp]

in addition to the front calipers going from 3 pots on the 13 to two pots on the DLX, the rear calipers went from two pots on the 13 to one pot on the DLX.

 

[treytexag_imp]

Question is this, why would Honda build two different ABS systems? They already designed and built the combo ABS in '13 - why not duplicate it in '14? Is it (presumably) just to shave a few bucks off the end price? Or more likely based on Honda's perceptions of the US market's desires for an ABS? Or feedback from '13 owners?

in addition to the front calipers going from 3 pots on the 13 to two pots on the DLX, the rear calipers went from two pots on the 13 to one pot on the DLX.

Sorry 'bout all the noob questions. Why would Honda do this - again, simply to save dollars?

 

[the Ferret]

Well, I am learning here too Trey. As an old guy this stuff baffles me lol. Stichill seems to have a pretty good handle on it.

the magazine articles were obviously misleading, and so far I haven't found info directly from Honda saying the brakes are linked, only from outside sources. The only direct from Honda info I have found so far, just says the DLX has ABS which was referenced above.

At any rate, from personal experience, from what I can see, and have been able to test on my own, the brakes are NOT linked on the DLX.

 

[treytexag_imp]

Well, I am learning here too Trey. As an old guy this stuff baffles me lol. Stichill seems to have a pretty good handle on it.

the magazine articles were obviously misleading, and so far I haven't found info directly from Honda saying the brakes are linked, only from outside sources. The only direct from Honda info I have found so far, just says the DLX has ABS which was referenced above.

At any rate, from personal experience, from what I can see, and have been able to test on my own, the brakes are NOT linked on the DLX.

From your explanations here and based on my uneducated look-see at the diagrams in the service manual, I would agree that the DLX does not appear to have linked ABS.

 

[BestStandard_imp]

I'm hoping they decided it was an improvement instead of saving $$. Do an image search for the 13 CB1100 ABS. The silver 3 pot calipers look too large and complicated with the extra lines, so I'm glad the DLX has the same two potters as the Standard model, looks much cleaner.