Oil Change Time!

[Jambo_imp]

This thread as it relates to the cost effectiveness of the aftermarket reusable filter could be extended to a lot of other stuff we do.
The K&N air filter. Supposed to flow more air than stock filter, to which I have never seen empirical data from K&N, only claims, but the same argument could apply.

I have reused stock air filters. Just vacuum them off in the opposite direction from the normal flow to remove dirt, dust, grit. I have even used solvent, though would not recommend that. I always have filter oil on hand for a variety of machines. Then reuse. You could argue that you could get (riding condition dependent), 30-50K miles out of one. How many reuses of a K&N would it take to pay for the 1-200% premium over stock to make that filter cost effective? Maybe because it is alleged to be cleanable, and perhaps withstands that better than the OEM, you would be inspired to clean them more often and result in better filtration consistently over time.

Or, you could just say I am paying the extra money for better performance and the cost be darned.

How cost effective is an aftermarket seat. How cost effective is the Delkevic full exhaust system, or the Power Commander?

Sometimes the money isn't the only thing, but some perceived performance increase, or we just like it better.

We are surprisingly adept at justifying anything.

In my case, I already had the filter on hand, just so happens, already paid for with intention of using it on another Honda, with dubious initial value vs. upfront cost to begin with. But it looks the $hit doesn't it?
Lol.

[TXBikerGuy]

This thread as it relates to the cost effectiveness of the aftermarket reusable filter could be extended to a lot of other stuff we do.
The K&N air filter. Supposed to flow more air than stock filter, to which I have never seen empirical data from K&N, only claims, but the same argument could apply.

I have reused stock air filters. Just vacuum them off in the opposite direction from the normal flow to remove dirt, dust, grit. I have even used solvent, though would not recommend that. I always have filter oil on hand for a variety of machines. Then reuse. You could argue that you could get (riding condition dependent), 30-50K miles out of one. How many reuses of a K&N would it take to pay for the 1-200% premium over stock to make that filter cost effective? Maybe because it is alleged to be cleanable, and perhaps withstands that better than the OEM, you would be inspired to clean them more often and result in better filtration consistently over time.

Or, you could just say I am paying the extra money for better performance and the cost be darned.

How cost effective is an aftermarket seat. How cost effective is the Delkevic full exhaust system, or the Power Commander?

Sometimes the money isn't the only thing, but some perceived performance increase, or we just like it better.

We are surprisingly adept at justifying anything.

In my case, I already had the filter on hand, just so happens, already paid for with intention of using it on another Honda, with dubious initial value vs. upfront cost to begin with. But it looks the $hit doesn't it?
Lol.

Reason enough for me to justify a significant percentage of the farkles on my bikes. If I started applying cost-effectiveness to my motorcycle-related buying decisions...yikes. That wouldn't end well.

[PowerDubs_imp]

My reasoning on using factory oil filters / or equivalents on my vehicles doesn't actually have any concern over the filtering...

Many don't think about how different oil filters effect oil flow itself- bypass valves, backflow valves, overall flow.

This is probably more important on certain engines than others.

[peterbaron]

My reasoning on using factory oil filters / or equivalents on my vehicles doesn't actually have any concern over the filtering...

Many don't think about how different oil filters effect oil flow itself- bypass valves, backflow valves, overall flow.

This is probably more important on certain engines than others.

^^+1^^...and some oil filters do not even have bypass valve!!

[Houtman_imp]

I keep it simple on an important part of the life of an engine : stick to OEM filter .

[Jambo_imp]

This thread as it relates to the cost effectiveness of the aftermarket reusable filter could be extended to a lot of other stuff we do.
The K&N air filter. Supposed to flow more air than stock filter, to which I have never seen empirical data from K&N, only claims, but the same argument could apply.

I have reused stock air filters. Just vacuum them off in the opposite direction from the normal flow to remove dirt, dust, grit. I have even used solvent, though would not recommend that. I always have filter oil on hand for a variety of machines. Then reuse. You could argue that you could get (riding condition dependent), 30-50K miles out of one. How many reuses of a K&N would it take to pay for the 1-200% premium over stock to make that filter cost effective? Maybe because it is alleged to be cleanable, and perhaps withstands that better than the OEM, you would be inspired to clean them more often and result in better filtration consistently over time.

Or, you could just say I am paying the extra money for better performance and the cost be darned.

How cost effective is an aftermarket seat. How cost effective is the Delkevic full exhaust system, or the Power Commander?

Sometimes the money isn't the only thing, but some perceived performance increase, or we just like it better.

We are surprisingly adept at justifying anything.

In my case, I already had the filter on hand, just so happens, already paid for with intention of using it on another Honda, with dubious initial value vs. upfront cost to begin with. But it looks the $hit doesn't it?
Lol.

Reason enough for me to justify a significant percentage of the farkles on my bikes. If I started applying cost-effectiveness to my motorcycle-related buying decisions...yikes. That wouldn't end well.

Reason enough for me to justify a significant percentage of the farkles on my bikes. If I started applying cost-effectiveness to my motorcycle-related buying decisions...yikes. That wouldn't end well.
Maybe we could do cost effectiveness spreadsheets and break that out when the box arrives to show to the wife. Then you could explain the analyses carefully and link it to the other retirement fund spreadsheet that shows how that Givi trunk allows you to take the bike on your commute more often, saving mpg over the car, permitting more savings that boost your contributions, resulting in HER retiring much earlier! Ignore the * for tires (nothing to see here, move along). That might inspire HER to search for more chrome laden savings!

My reasoning on using factory oil filters / or equivalents on my vehicles doesn't actually have any concern over the filtering...

Many don't think about how different oil filters effect oil flow itself- bypass valves, backflow valves, overall flow.

This is probably more important on certain engines than others.

You bring up another controversial subject. Most bike filters do not have the complication of bypass mechanicals built in. If you think about it, those measures are only for those who think all an internal combustion engine needs is the fuel put into that thingy behind the door.

My vehicles will never benefit from such bypass technology. Given I change the oil with synthetic on ridiculous 3K mile intervals, my oil filters are probably nearly new when they are removed to begin with. Again, and to me, if I do the work myself, which I enjoy and giving me the opportunity to inspect, the cost is so low that it is probably more of a feel good advantage than anything else.

Turns out, despite the fact that they are totally different engines, the wife's late model Honda Fit (1.5L) and my late model Honda Civic (2.0L) use the same filter. Ordered six at once through Walmart of Mobil-1 M110A's and got a $1/filter discount and never have to worry about having filters on hand. Those filters rate high in the Youtube dissassembly inspection comparos. With those, from the time I break out the two hydraulic jacks (with the protective frame pucks), remove shrouds, change oil/filter, reassemble, clean up pan/funnel and recycle, write service record, takes me an hour and costs $30/car, and $20 per bike (with reusable PC Racing filter), done on 3K mile intervals.

I think you can't go wrong with an OEM filter. I DO use the car oil. That costs me $4.60 per quart for FULL synthetic for comparison.

On the oil flow discussion, I think I reread the PC Racing claim of 35 micron filtration specs (when, initially, over the oil change interval, as an average, what interval?), which might allow larger particles through than an OEM. PC Racing claims a higher flow rate, which if you look at the photos of the internals and the surface area is perhaps believable. But compared to what surface area on an OEM? What are the OEM filtration specs? I will wait while you do the archeology to uncover the OEM specifications....Can't find any? Again, how much crud is in there after 3K miles using full synthetic? Judging by my inspection of the oil coming out of the motor(s), I am going to claim "not much".

[Blockhead_imp]

I keep it simple on an important part of the life of an engine : stick to OEM filter .

Me too...

The dreaded oil/filter thread...a forum classic.

[Jambo_imp]

Speaking of oil change intervals, let me fan the flames of controversy yet again, because I can.

Engine break-in.
There are two camps:
1) Ride it like you stole it from day one
2) Follow the manufacturers kinder, gentler approach
Either camp can debate when is the right time for the first oil change. If you follow the book, Honda tells us to change oil (Initial) after only 600 miles (1000km), or six months. Then every 4K miles thereafter.
That is actually the first time I recall the manufacturer recommending the initial change that early.

No matter. Here is what I do. I am 1) and 2) plus follow THIS recommendation, whether my owner's manual says to or not. If I buy new, I do the kinder-gentler break in for 600 miles. Car, bike, or whatever. Early shifts, mixed driving, through all the gears, no droning on the highway at constant speed. Then, change the oil/filter. With ONLY dino juice. NO SYNTHETIC at this time. Even if the manufacturer does not call for this early change, I do it anyway (see Honda car recommendation below). After that short initial period, which might only be a weekend or two, and the initial change, then 2) ride it like you stole it. The reason for dino juice at initial change is to allow the motor to break in thoroughly with rings seating to cylinder walls, and the rest of the motor (and transmission in the bike case) to properly seat and bed-in. If you switch to synthetic too early (at the initial change), then you could delay the motor break-in, and not gain the full horsepower the motor can make. Once that initial change is made, I will feel free to take it to the redline whenever it suits me, which might be every ride.
After the SECOND oil change at about 4K, I will switch to full synthetic and remain there for life (or the duration of my ownership).

I got my CB used with 5900 miles, in pristine condition, with already some aftermarket coin spent, for a 50% cost savings letting the original owner suffer the upfront massive depreciation on the bike (more so on the farkles). Then, I changed the oil (as described in this thread) at the onset of my ownership to establish a known baseline under my service record keeping. It doesn't matter what was claimed, I cannot verify what the break-in procedure was that was used.
Now I am free to rev the snot out of the motor as I please and enjoy.
I always follow the above if I buy new. I think the initial change at such a low interval is also overkill. But, oil is cheap.

Note: Jambo likes Hondas. My car is a Civic, and the wife has a Fit. Honda purposefully has the computer tally mileage and "tells you" when service is due with their "Maintenance Minder". Most manufacturers are going to this. Just a matter of time when the bikes also do. The display calls out a code you have to research to find out what it means. Not only does the flimsy provided owners manual tell you nothing, but "take it to the stealership", but if you get the REAL manual (note: Honda will send you the "real" book they used to provide always for free if you ask for it within the first six months of ownership....read the purposefully very tiny font in the introduction of your manual), BUT even that 1.5" book does not tell you what the Maintenance Minder codes mean, or the service intervals. They do this on purpose. These days with online shopping, you have to be a moron to provide either dealer or manufacturer with much profit upon initial purchase. True whether car or bike. The real profit is made in the service department. They don't want you to know the intervals, or what the code means, so intimidated (or lazy) people, will just take the vehicle in for service. They don't want do-it-yourselfers. The Honda cars will tell you to do service A0 at 7500 miles, which is an oil change +. I did not wait. Most people will see the wrench idiot light (called that for a reason), panic and call the stealership, where they are urged to get the vehicle to them as soon as possible as they are the only ones who can interpret the A0 code and give the vehicle what it needs.
I changed oil at 1K miles and reset the Maintenance Minder on both Honda cars. I have never taken the car back to the stealership. Also the shrouds on the bottom of the vehicle serve two purposes: 1) allows for better aerodynamics to meet fuel economy fleet standards, and 2) discourages owners from doing their own service, as you can't even see the oil filter.

No bike or car manufacturers want their vehicles to last forever. Just past the warranty. I view the oil change intervals in this way. I want my vehicles to last forever. Oil is cheap and the time it takes me to change it is less than it takes to deliver the vehicle to have a service department do it, and it is more convenient for me to do it in my garage or driveway anyway, at my convenience. I change early and often, and with the described schedule above using good filters and oil, using my mechanical aptitude. In my case with the way frequent oil change interval, I do not think it matters a whole lot that I am using the PC Racing reusable filter, or an OEM one. It only matters that I am not using a K&N that can pop a nut ( ), or a Fram that can disintegrate because it is made out of spit and toilet tissue. This ensures me the job is done right, and my vehicle will last as long as possible.

[SportsterDoc]

I have some K&N filters, if anyone is interested.

LOL
Don't think there is an issue with their oil filter media so much as poor spot welding... or glue blocking passages on some cartridges.

The reusable oil filter touted in this thread has a micron rating of 30 or 35 depending on which link is viewed.

Wix does better (25):

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=4747383

Did not find a rating for the Honda oil filter.

Be interesting to compare not only micron ratings but how much contaminants can be retained before the bypass opens and stops filtering.
I used disposable K&N oil filter cartridges on my last two Yamahas, after inspecting no ports were blocked by glue (had to send one back), primarily because I could order them at a very good price from O'Reilly Auto parts.

Thinking about helping my youngest son in law clean his k&N air filter on his F-150 last time I was in Arizona, there are other costs that showed associated with using a reusable oil filter or air filter:

In addition to time there is also solvents and cleaning up after the clean up!

[Jambo_imp]

I have some K&N filters, if anyone is interested.

LOL
Don't think there is an issue with their oil filter media so much as poor spot welding... or glue blocking passages on some cartridges.

The reusable oil filter touted in this thread has a micron rating of 30 or 35 depending on which link is viewed.

Wix does better (25):

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=4747383

Did not find a rating for the Honda oil filter.

Be interesting to compare not only micron ratings but how much contaminants can be retained before the bypass opens and stops filtering.
I used disposable K&N oil filter cartridges on my last two Yamahas, after inspecting no ports were blocked by glue (had to send one back), primarily because I could order them at a very good price from O'Reilly Auto parts.

Thinking about helping my youngest son in law clean his k&N air filter on his F-150 last time I was in Arizona, there are other costs that showed associated with using a reusable oil filter or air filter:

In addition to time there is also solvents and cleaning up after the clean up!

LOL
Don't think there is an issue with their oil filter media so much as poor spot welding... or glue blocking passages on some cartridges.

The reusable oil filter touted in this thread has a micron rating of 30 or 35 depending on which link is viewed.

Wix does better (25):

https://www.rockauto.com/en/moreinfo.php?pk=4747383

Did not find a rating for the Honda oil filter.

Be interesting to compare not only micron ratings but how much contaminants can be retained before the bypass opens and stops filtering.
I used disposable K&N oil filter cartridges on my last two Yamahas, after inspecting no ports were blocked by glue (had to send one back), primarily because I could order them at a very good price from O'Reilly Auto parts.

Thinking about helping my youngest son in law clean his k&N air filter on his F-150 last time I was in Arizona, there are other costs that showed associated with using a reusable oil filter or air filter:

In addition to time there is also solvents and cleaning up after the clean up!
Oil filtration has established standards:
ISO 4548-12 and SAE HS806 test standards are used by oil filter and Original Equipment (OE) vehicle manufacturers. These test standards specify over 15 different procedures to determine the performance and durability of an oil filter. Efficiency is a measure of how well the filter removes dirt from the oil.

https://www.powdertechnologyinc.com/test...fications/

We can fall into a rabbit hole on this one. Wix does not say their claims are verified according to established testing standards.

The ISO 4548-4 testing standard specifies: Initial Particle Retention Efficiency, Life & Cumulative Efficiency (gravimetric method).

Without the claim that their filtration specification is verified via a testing standard, we are left to trust the manufacturers claims. We are left to wonder whether the claim is for Initial Particle Retention (which degrades over the life of the filter), or over the "life" of the filter. What is the "life" of the filter? Different vehicle manufacturers have different recommendations as to oil change interval. For US, the life should be that interval. We cannot know what Wix, or anybody else says their filtration claim is, or what it is tied to. This is where we have the problem.

I cannot verify their claim, or the claim of the PC Racing filter.

I will claim I do not need any bypass system. Bypass should only engage when the filter gets clogged requiring it. If you have an event that causes your filter to prematurely clog, you have a much bigger problem than your oil filter. I will never allow my filters to clog because my oil change interval is (excessively) short, but it only costs me $20 and an hour of my time. Therefore, (For ME) I do not care what bypass is provided or not.

Yes, there is cost associated with solvents. Walmart sells a 12 oz can of carb cleaner for $2.50:
https://www.walmart.com/ip/STA-BIL-Carb-...sYQAvD_BwE

It might take 0.25 or 0.33 a can to clean the PC Racing filter. I do it over a pan outside so it does not stink up the garage and I don't breathe in the fumes. Then you need to dispose of it. My recycle center is very good, and they will swallow anything including used solvents and brake fluid. I can pour the pan contents into a used empty 5 qt (or whatever) oil container and recycle that when I also take the oil. The solvent might cost me $1. The actual cost of 4.1q of Mobil-1 is about $19, plus the $1 of solvent=my $20 per oil change cost estimate.

Since I cannot verify the claims of Wix, Honda OEM, or PC Racing filtration claims, I could GUESS that the Wix has a 40% better filtration efficiency, but it is only a guess because I don't know if any of them tested to this standard, and whether the claim is initial, over the life, or what the life is. You could ask Wix if their claim is based on testing to ISO 4548-4. It would be interesting to hear of their reply. I would also ask what 25 microns is, meaning what portion of the standard that number represents. Whoever answers the phone will probably have their head explode. I could also bother to ask PC Racing, but probably won't. If I change my oil with synthetic at 3K miles, my sense is that it won't matter very much. Let the flames begin!

Lastly, I am not really touting the PC Racing. I have no affiliation and will say (if you don't gather from above) that it is up to the potential user to decide for themselves whether they are any good or not at filtering, and whether they are at all cost effective. I don't work for them. I do think the filter looks good, seems to actually filter based on seeing what is on there when you clean it, and that it is convenient to not have to stock filters for changing oil. BTW, I will don gloves and eye protection before spraying any solvent out of a pressurized canister. You don't want any spray reflecting into your eyes or face. That is about all I will claim. It really takes no real additional time and not much effort to clean it while the oil is dripping from the sump. It is possible, that unit could actually cause harm because the filtration is not as good as it could be, if say compared to the Wix or OEM. I really don't know.

Lastly, I would be willing to bet that any (unsubstantiated) claims of filter efficiency (in microns), is likely the initial efficiency only assuming they use any established testing standard. After that, it is anybody's guess which one would be better at 1K, 2K, or 10K miles. Even if the DOJ forbid manufactures from making any claims unless they could prove through providing test data results to the standards tests, we still would not know which part of the standard their claim actually is. I would expect the initial value to be the best value, which is why I would bet that is what the claim is based on, assuming they did any testing to a standard and did not make up their own test standard.