MMG Lithium Ion Battery

[rboe]

Wow! $99 is an excellent price point.

[the Ferret]

One question I would have is how is the warning on those batteries when they are on the downside and about to give up? Do they turn over slowly, or do you walk out, turn on the key someday and nothing, like on the agm batts?

[flynrider]

One question I would have is how is the warning on those batteries when they are on the downside and about to give up? Do they turn over slowly, or do you walk out, turn on the key someday and nothing, like on the agm batts?

Good question. While I haven't seen any info on the particular failure modes, I do plan on periodically making use of the built in capacity indicator on the top of the battery. That should give some warning before it goes completely flat. According to the documentation I've seen, the resting voltage is also a good gauge of battery health. If it goes below 12.8V it's in the questionable zone.

[huxley2_imp]

TTT. going to need one soon I think.

[flynrider]

Update :

Today I got to test a cold weather start. It was 33 degrees F this morning. I turned the key and hit the starter as soon as the gauge sweep was complete. It started right up, but I detected that the cranking speed was just a tiny bit slower than usual. I didn't have to use the cold weather procedure where you turn the key and let it warm up for a bit before cranking. I suspect that if I had done it that way, it would have cranked at the normal speed. I'll try that next time it gets that cold.

BTW, I managed to drain the battery by leaving the key on overnight, back in October. The battery has circuitry which cuts it off when the voltage gets too low. It was down to around 10V resting voltage and nothing happened when I turned the key on. I put it on a dumb charger at 2 amps for 5 hrs. and it recovered completely. No problems since then.

[LARIDER_imp]

Update :

Today I got to test a cold weather start. It was 33 degrees F this morning. I turned the key and hit the starter as soon as the gauge sweep was complete. It started right up, but I detected that the cranking speed was just a tiny bit slower than usual. I didn't have to use the cold weather procedure where you turn the key and let it warm up for a bit before cranking. I suspect that if I had done it that way, it would have cranked at the normal speed. I'll try that next time it gets that cold.

BTW, I managed to drain the battery by leaving the key on overnight, back in October. The battery has circuitry which cuts it off when the voltage gets too low. It was down to around 10V resting voltage and nothing happened when I turned the key on. I put it on a dumb charger at 2 amps for 5 hrs. and it recovered completely. No problems since then.

Thanks for the update. I've been thinking about making the switch to the MMG battery but a little hesitant as my only experience with Lithium-Ion has been with power tools.

I'm thinking it would make a fine Xmas present to myself......

[rbike_imp]

I've been meaning to get a post in here, but have been tied up for a few days. My company manufactures _____ (keeping in the rules) plus I have a ____ background and I know a few things regarding this specific subject.

Quick background, AGM (absorb Glass Mat ) batteries are basically Pb (lead) inside an H2SO4 (Sulphuric Acid Bath) causing electron flow. The difference with AGM batteries is that their acid bath is more "solidified" throughout a fiberglass mat type of material instead of being in a liquid version like the basic wet cell car or mc type battery. They last 3 times longer and are apx. 2 times the price for the same basic specifications. Little to no maintenance and leak free.

Now Lithium - too much to say here, but in a nutshell - Not Ready for Prime Time. The theory is great, but the practical implementation results in serious accidents waiting to happen. The big problem is a run away thermal chemical reaction that can not be stopped once initiated - think of the "China Syndrome", but on a much smaller scale.

In very large battery banks (not the original purpose) the supposed performance gains have to be measured against their 10 times the price and severe safety issues. To induce this risk on your mc, is not something to be taken lightly - and for what reason? For cell phones, laptops, ... , but things life dependent or really Expensive, the risk (non-existent or slight as some may think) is not worth it - IMPB.

I have a FAQ weblink regarding this subject matter should you decide to view it here (http://www.zrd.com/faq/esdfaqhlw.html).

AGM batteries are sealed allowing only gas to vent out if being overcharged, otherwise they never need to be touched. Because they are sealed, they can not be "cured" if damaged, but normal use (big variable here) should give many years of trouble free operation and there is never a spill or need to check the "water" level. It also does not hide its condition and fail out of no where without warnings. With a simple $19.95 carbon pile battery tester from companies like Harbor Freight, you will know many months in advance if your battery is getting old and should be monitored for replacement.

Should anyone want to take this offline, send me a PM. 'hope this helps vs. adds to the confusion.

[AzBob_imp]

I've been meaning to get a post in here, but have been tied up for a few days. My company manufactures _____ (keeping in the rules) plus I have a ____ background and I know a few things regarding this specific subject.

Quick background, AGM (absorb Glass Mat ) batteries are basically Pb (lead) inside an H2SO4 (Sulphuric Acid Bath) causing electron flow. The difference with AGM batteries is that their acid bath is more "solidified" throughout a fiberglass mat type of material instead of being in a liquid version like the basic wet cell car or mc type battery. They last 3 times longer and are apx. 2 times the price for the same basic specifications. Little to no maintenance and leak free.

Now Lithium - too much to say here, but in a nutshell - Not Ready for Prime Time. The theory is great, but the practical implementation results in serious accidents waiting to happen. The big problem is a run away thermal chemical reaction that can not be stopped once initiated - think of the "China Syndrome", but on a much smaller scale.

In very large battery banks (not the original purpose) the supposed performance gains have to be measured against their 10 times the price and severe safety issues. To induce this risk on your mc, is not something to be taken lightly - and for what reason? For cell phones, laptops, ... , but things life dependent or really Expensive, the risk (non-existent or slight as some may think) is not worth it - IMPB.

I have a FAQ weblink regarding this subject matter should you decide to view it here (http://www.zrd.com/faq/esdfaqhlw.html).

AGM batteries are sealed allowing only gas to vent out if being overcharged, otherwise they never need to be touched. Because they are sealed, they can not be "cured" if damaged, but normal use (big variable here) should give many years of trouble free operation and there is never a spill or need to check the "water" level. It also does not hide its condition and fail out of no where without warnings. With a simple $19.95 carbon pile battery tester from companies like Harbor Freight, you will know many months in advance if your battery is getting old and should be monitored for replacement.

Should anyone want to take this offline, send me a PM. 'hope this helps vs. adds to the confusion.

These batteries have been in use for over a decade. LiFePO4 batteries are not LiCoO2; everything lithium is not the same. These batteries are MUCH less susceptible to overheating/explosion due to the difference in chemistry.

While not proof of anything, I've had a LiFePO4 battery in one of my motorcycles for the past four years or so and I've charged it with simple Pb chargers as well as a proper balancing charger (and obviously, the bike's charging system) and not a single bad thing has ever happened. Again, anecdotal, obviously.

[rbike_imp]

It was with great reluctance that I even posted on this subject. It is up there with many off-limit subjects that are very personal to many like I'm sure oil wars is here.

Being that we are only dealing with 25 or so Ah (amp hours), and are able to literally get off the bike if needed - however tell that to some PC & smartphone users.

I work in an environment that that is not an option for most of the time. Things have no choice but to work properly or loss of life is going to happen. Additionally, the typical battery bank is in excess of 1,000Ah! That makes one large uncontrolled reaction.

With the excellent lifespan and properties of the typical AGM mc battery, I do not find the need to be bleeding-edge on this item. The risk reward is possibly way too high. If there was a compelling reason to use lithium, I might reconsider, but it would have to be overwhelming at this point in time.

[AzBob_imp]

The battery in a laptop and smartphone is an entirely different chemistry from these motorsports batteries.

I agree that if we were talking about much higher amperages it might be a different calculation on risk.

Everyone should do whatever makes them comfortable. :-)