Front brakes squeal...this feels like a saga in the making

[Cormanus]

To add to pdedse and j3gq's request, could we also please hear from 2017 RS owners and 2019 and later EX and RS owners as to whether their front brakes squeal. The bike had a makeover in 2019 or 2020 and it would be interesting to know whether Honda addressed the issue.

And ... on the other topic, I went to the hardware shop yesterday and by some amazing coincidence ...


Finally, Ferret, who is this active diet of whom you speak?

The brakes on my 17'RS don't squeal. One bike is not a big sample though!

Anyway: squealing brakes is a more and more common problem in automotive industry, due to the new restrictions on pads material due to contaminants on brake dust (that will become airborne sooner than later).

Now there is a tendency to use high carbon steel on the rotors, I guess to help minimizing this problem.

(https://www.bremboparts.com/africa/en/pr...gh-carbon)

Really? I’m not able to argue from science, but experientially I’ve no evidence at all of that. I’m not surrounded by new vehicles with squealing brakes.

[jtopiso_imp]

To add to pdedse and j3gq's request, could we also please hear from 2017 RS owners and 2019 and later EX and RS owners as to whether their front brakes squeal. The bike had a makeover in 2019 or 2020 and it would be interesting to know whether Honda addressed the issue.

And ... on the other topic, I went to the hardware shop yesterday and by some amazing coincidence ...


Finally, Ferret, who is this active diet of whom you speak?

The brakes on my 17'RS don't squeal. One bike is not a big sample though!

Anyway: squealing brakes is a more and more common problem in automotive industry, due to the new restrictions on pads material due to contaminants on brake dust (that will become airborne sooner than later).

Now there is a tendency to use high carbon steel on the rotors, I guess to help minimizing this problem.

(https://www.bremboparts.com/africa/en/pr...gh-carbon)

Really? I’m not able to argue from science, but experientially I’ve no evidence at all of that. I’m not surrounded by new vehicles with squealing brakes.

It's a problem they have to deal with during development.(*)

Why honda hasn't been able to make them silent... I don't know. I don't have this problem, and I don't know if it because it's a '17 model so it's been corrected, if it's because RS brakes are different, or it's just that the weather here doesn't trigger the noise.


(*) belive it or not: this kind of issues that can cause complaints by the customer are somehow more important on cheap models than on "niche" models. If 1 out of 10 vehicles you sell have the squeel, and 1 out of 2 customers complain, if you sell 10.000 units, you have 500 complaints, which you have to investigate, solve, maybe make a recall... and peiple making bad press about the product.
If you have sold 50 units, you will have 5 complaints tops (assuming the "niche" client is more demanding), and the problem will be between the client and the dealer.
The first case is a quality problem. The second case is an anecdote.

[pdedse]

To add to pdedse and j3gq's request, could we also please hear from 2017 RS owners and 2019 and later EX and RS owners as to whether their front brakes squeal. The bike had a makeover in 2019 or 2020 and it would be interesting to know whether Honda addressed the issue.

And ... on the other topic, I went to the hardware shop yesterday and by some amazing coincidence ...


Finally, Ferret, who is this active diet of whom you speak?

The brakes on my 17'RS don't squeal. One bike is not a big sample though!

Anyway: squealing brakes is a more and more common problem in automotive industry, due to the new restrictions on pads material due to contaminants on brake dust (that will become airborne sooner than later).

Now there is a tendency to use high carbon steel on the rotors, I guess to help minimizing this problem.

(https://www.bremboparts.com/africa/en/pr...gh-carbon)

So Honda was attempting to stay ahead of the game!

To add to pdedse and j3gq's request, could we also please hear from 2017 RS owners and 2019 and later EX and RS owners as to whether their front brakes squeal. The bike had a makeover in 2019 or 2020 and it would be interesting to know whether Honda addressed the issue.

And ... on the other topic, I went to the hardware shop yesterday and by some amazing coincidence ...


Finally, Ferret, who is this active diet of whom you speak?

The brakes on my 17'RS don't squeal. One bike is not a big sample though!

Anyway: squealing brakes is a more and more common problem in automotive industry, due to the new restrictions on pads material due to contaminants on brake dust (that will become airborne sooner than later).

Now there is a tendency to use high carbon steel on the rotors, I guess to help minimizing this problem.

(https://www.bremboparts.com/africa/en/pr...gh-carbon)

This can only mean you must have gotten one of the deffective ones

Seriously, though, I'm happy to hear that. I'd love for that Honda tech that examined VLJ's '17ex and concluded "all w/in specs" to look at your bike and do the same measurements. Seems to me that's about the only way that one could understand what's going on.

To add to pdedse and j3gq's request, could we also please hear from 2017 RS owners and 2019 and later EX and RS owners as to whether their front brakes squeal. The bike had a makeover in 2019 or 2020 and it would be interesting to know whether Honda addressed the issue.

And ... on the other topic, I went to the hardware shop yesterday and by some amazing coincidence ...


Finally, Ferret, who is this active diet of whom you speak?

The brakes on my 17'RS don't squeal. One bike is not a big sample though!

Anyway: squealing brakes is a more and more common problem in automotive industry, due to the new restrictions on pads material due to contaminants on brake dust (that will become airborne sooner than later).

Now there is a tendency to use high carbon steel on the rotors, I guess to help minimizing this problem.

(https://www.bremboparts.com/africa/en/pr...gh-carbon)

Really? I’m not able to argue from science, but experientially I’ve no evidence at all of that. I’m not surrounded by new vehicles with squealing brakes.

It's a problem they have to deal with during development.(*)

Why honda hasn't been able to make them silent... I don't know. I don't have this problem, and I don't know if it because it's a '17 model so it's been corrected, if it's because RS brakes are different, or it's just that the weather here doesn't trigger the noise.


(*) belive it or not: this kind of issues that can cause complaints by the customer are somehow more important on cheap models than on "niche" models. If 1 out of 10 vehicles you sell have the squeel, and 1 out of 2 customers complain, if you sell 10.000 units, you have 500 complaints, which you have to investigate, solve, maybe make a recall... and peiple making bad press about the product.
If you have sold 50 units, you will have 5 complaints tops (assuming the "niche" client is more demanding), and the problem will be between the client and the dealer.
The first case is a quality problem. The second case is an anecdote.

Last night I was comparing front-end photos between year '14 CB1100s and those of '17ex models to see if there was anything physically different that one could see. The obvious thing is that '17ex models have spoked wheels and the '14s (and jtopiso's "17 RS) do not. I began to wonder--bear w/ me, I'm no engineer--if the structure of the wheel could make a difference; for example does the wheel design--interacting with the attached rotor--make the rotor "behave" in such a way that w/ spokes "squeal happens" and that w/out spokes "squeal does't happen"?
Since I brought it up...

'14 DLX model:


'17EX:


RS model (not sure on year):


Rotor is different for '17ex and RS.

[the Ferret]

Astute observation pdedse, and a very good question

[Houtman_imp]

Probably not enough riders have " squealed" to Honda for them to be concerned. My 2017 squeals at the end of a stop but I just lived to ignore it.

[emptysea]

Is there a difference between a "squeal" and a "squeak". I assume not and if not, my rear brake squeals, but my front brake never has.

[max]

Looking at Pdedse's pictures i wondered;

Do both front brakes squeal?
What happens if just one set of the pads is treated?
Can we isolate ( disconnect ) one side or place some paper or shim under the pad ( s ) and see the result?
Not likely but do brake calipers " talk" to each other via the hydraulic lines?
Does having abs brakes make a difference?

do we need a poll or spreadsheet to point in a direction?

[Houtman_imp]

Whom can take a picture a squeal or squeak ?

[GoldOxide_imp]

Is there a difference between a "squeal" and a "squeak". I assume not and if not, my rear brake squeals, but my front brake never has.

I've always envisioned a transit bus brakes "squealing". A "squeak" to me is like a door hinge, small and focused - resolvable with a drop of lubricant.

My 2014 CB1100 would sometimes squeal. Seldom, but it did, and both front (don't know which or both disks) and rear brake. It seemed to happen when the disks had a very fine film of condensation on them. Soon, however, the squeal was gone and I suppose as the disks warmed up. In fact, the "squeal" was more like a mid-to-high frequency "shudder".

[j3gq_imp]

An old hat by now, but as I think I found a (temporary) solution to the problem, I thought I lay it out for you, so you can test it yourself. It works for me, may be it works for you.
I had kept asking mechanics and other Honda people about my squealing brakes. Got all the answers we have been discussing here above, or no answers at all. Brakes kept squealing and driving me nuts (on some days). Finally, a few days ago, I stop at my Honda dealer for some unrelated issue, while it's may be 5 minutes before their closure for the day. Outside works the last guy who's got to bring all all cycles back into the shop, or behind the fence for the night. When he sees me he stops doing what he does and he walks over to me bike asking with a big smile "nice bike, anything I can do for you ?". Had never seen him before, so I smile, and explain the problem with my brakes, and how little I like to scare grand-mothers at the traffic lights when I come to a stop. I go on telling him that the problem was gone for a few days after the winter pause (when I don't ride), and he asks "how do you clean your brake assembly. And I say, I don't. He smiles, and I tell him that my dealer/mechanic has proposed to disassemble everything, how to work the pads, and G knows what.
And he says, here is what I propose to do. Take the pressure cleaner, keep the nozzle at a healthy distance (like 20 inches or so) and clean your front brake assembly with clean water from all possible angles. Watch what comes out, then go riding and test your brakes carefully. I say, and that's it ? and he says that's it.
No, it's not gone, and yes, it will probably come back. But the last 3 days all I hear is a tiny little squeak at the very last moment before she comes to a stop - like on the last 10 inches roling. For me this is a solid 90% improvement over past concerts. Will tell you'll if it lasts in a few weeks.