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(02-11-2018, 02:43 PM)Guth_imp Wrote: The shame in Ulvetanna's recording example is not that the young musicians decided to record to analog, but that they wanted to master the recording digitally. If the intent is to make the music available in an analog format then just skip the digital portions of the recording chain all together. The real problem with this scenario is that very few people have a decent enough playback system anymore to hear the difference between a recording made with low-end digital recording equipment and one made meticulously with an all-analog process (and that's if they even care). Most people now tend to listen to music through their computer speakers or via crappy headphones so it doesn't really matter that much to them. When it comes to recording music, if the desire is simply to make your music available for the masses via any of the digital based formats then don't bother with going to the trouble to incorporate analog technology into the mix, just let the music stand on it's own. Whether it's recorded music or motorcycles —I'd much rather see manufacturers leave the bogus stuff out/off.
Vinyl albums that were digitally recorded are exactly the same to me as a water-cooled bike sporting "air-cooling' fins, or using offset cylinder timing to create some unevenness in an otherwise amazingly smooth engine. Just like digitally recorded vinyl records, these things are done for no other reason than to sell more product (typically to people that don't know any better). Millennials go for this kind of thing with their music, as di some of us old farts with our motorcycles. Obviously I'm not thrilled with Honda's decision to intentionally make the engine run rougher. I will tell people that I bought the CB despite such a decision by Honda. In the case of Triumph, of course the fins add "some cooling' by the nature of physics, but they could have just as easily been left off. This along with the fuel injection being tarted up as carbs is exactly the same as digital recordings being transferred to vinyl records. The difference isn't so much the products involved but the age groups that they are being marketed to. Most vinyl records these days are being sold to millennials and most retro motorcycles are being sold to older guys. Either way, the marketers are counting on these different sets of consumers to buy into the image that they've worked so hard (and in the examples above, have gone above and beyond) to create. The one thing about the CB1100 which I have said quite a few times is that it really is an air-cooled inline four. It feels like it, runs like it. It's about as close to vinyl as one could get. It's not modeled. So you are in fact experiencing the real thing so to speak.
The Royal Enfields are also air-cooled and pretty retro from all I can see. The twins should be really nice bikes.
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Imagine what the WC Triumph engines would look like without those fins. It would be ridiculous. Aesthetics matter, as do heritage signals, I’d not lose much sleep over this stuff.
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(02-11-2018, 03:15 PM)Capo_imp Wrote: Imagine what the WC Triumph engines would look like without those fins. It would be ridiculous. Aesthetics matter, as do heritage signals, I’d not lose much sleep over this stuff.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I would never have purchased one, er, two had they not had the look. I've got a Z650 which is an example of pure efficiency and light weight. It's a very different kind of bike. It'll run circles around the Street Cup but isn't the same thing at all.
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(02-11-2018, 03:12 PM)Ulvetanna_imp Wrote: (02-11-2018, 02:43 PM)Guth_imp Wrote: The shame in Ulvetanna's recording example is not that the young musicians decided to record to analog, but that they wanted to master the recording digitally. If the intent is to make the music available in an analog format then just skip the digital portions of the recording chain all together. The real problem with this scenario is that very few people have a decent enough playback system anymore to hear the difference between a recording made with low-end digital recording equipment and one made meticulously with an all-analog process (and that's if they even care). Most people now tend to listen to music through their computer speakers or via crappy headphones so it doesn't really matter that much to them. When it comes to recording music, if the desire is simply to make your music available for the masses via any of the digital based formats then don't bother with going to the trouble to incorporate analog technology into the mix, just let the music stand on it's own. Whether it's recorded music or motorcycles —I'd much rather see manufacturers leave the bogus stuff out/off.
Vinyl albums that were digitally recorded are exactly the same to me as a water-cooled bike sporting "air-cooling' fins, or using offset cylinder timing to create some unevenness in an otherwise amazingly smooth engine. Just like digitally recorded vinyl records, these things are done for no other reason than to sell more product (typically to people that don't know any better). Millennials go for this kind of thing with their music, as di some of us old farts with our motorcycles. Obviously I'm not thrilled with Honda's decision to intentionally make the engine run rougher. I will tell people that I bought the CB despite such a decision by Honda. In the case of Triumph, of course the fins add "some cooling' by the nature of physics, but they could have just as easily been left off. This along with the fuel injection being tarted up as carbs is exactly the same as digital recordings being transferred to vinyl records. The difference isn't so much the products involved but the age groups that they are being marketed to. Most vinyl records these days are being sold to millennials and most retro motorcycles are being sold to older guys. Either way, the marketers are counting on these different sets of consumers to buy into the image that they've worked so hard (and in the examples above, have gone above and beyond) to create. The one thing about the CB1100 which I have said quite a few times is that it really is an air-cooled inline four. It feels like it, runs like it. It's about as close to vinyl as one could get. It's not modeled. So you are in fact experiencing the real thing so to speak.
The Royal Enfields are also air-cooled and pretty retro from all I can see. The twins should be really nice bikes. The one thing about the CB1100 which I have said quite a few times is that it really is an air-cooled inline four. It feels like it, runs like it. It's about as close to vinyl as one could get. It's not modeled. So you are in fact experiencing the real thing so to speak.
The Royal Enfields are also air-cooled and pretty retro from all I can see. The twins should be really nice bikes.
One could argue that Honda dropped the ball and doomed the CB to the marginal sales success that it is by hewing too close on authenticity and delivering an underwhelming performance envelope. I get the design brief and labor of love that the CB is, but from a marketing standpoint, Honda’s conservative take on the CB, particularly considering how earthshaking the CB 750 was, to me is much more bothersome than fake fins.
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(02-11-2018, 02:43 PM)Guth_imp Wrote: The shame in Ulvetanna's recording example is not that the young musicians decided to record to analog, but that they wanted to master the recording digitally. If the intent is to make the music available in an analog format then just skip the digital portions of the recording chain all together. The real problem with this scenario is that very few people have a decent enough playback system anymore to hear the difference between a recording made with low-end digital recording equipment and one made meticulously with an all-analog process (and that's if they even care). Most people now tend to listen to music through their computer speakers or via crappy headphones so it doesn't really matter that much to them. When it comes to recording music, if the desire is simply to make your music available for the masses via any of the digital based formats then don't bother with going to the trouble to incorporate analog technology into the mix, just let the music stand on it's own. Whether it's recorded music or motorcycles —I'd much rather see manufacturers leave the bogus stuff out/off.
Vinyl albums that were digitally recorded are exactly the same to me as a water-cooled bike sporting "air-cooling' fins, or using offset cylinder timing to create some unevenness in an otherwise amazingly smooth engine. Just like digitally recorded vinyl records, these things are done for no other reason than to sell more product (typically to people that don't know any better). Millennials go for this kind of thing with their music, as di some of us old farts with our motorcycles. Obviously I'm not thrilled with Honda's decision to intentionally make the engine run rougher. I will tell people that I bought the CB despite such a decision by Honda. In the case of Triumph, of course the fins add "some cooling' by the nature of physics, but they could have just as easily been left off. This along with the fuel injection being tarted up as carbs is exactly the same as digital recordings being transferred to vinyl records. The difference isn't so much the products involved but the age groups that they are being marketed to. Most vinyl records these days are being sold to millennials and most retro motorcycles are being sold to older guys. Either way, the marketers are counting on these different sets of consumers to buy into the image that they've worked so hard (and in the examples above, have gone above and beyond) to create.
Regarding music, people have traded fidelity for portability. And it’s a darn good deal. I enjoy vinyl as much as the next guy...my buds and I have monthly vinyl listening nights... but I’ll take Spotify and 30 million songs at my fingertips anywhere I am on earth, for $14/ month, over having to plop myself down in my den to listen to a record. Every day. I’m failing to see the link between fins on water cools motorcycle engines, and the consumption of music.
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I don't lose sleep over it. But I do find it irritating that people would think it has anything to do with something other than aesthetics as Triumph has tried to claim. That's the BS part I'm referring to. Of course it would look ugly if they had left the fins off, so does the radiator for that matter, but not nearly as ugly as most radiators. That's why Triumph went to such great lengths to try and hide the true nature of these new bikes. To me, It's really no different than digitally recorded vinyl albums. I don't lose any sleep over it. I just get irritated whenever someone (Triumph in this case) tries so hard to convince me otherwise.
It reminds me of the commercial a few years ago where these three old ladies are sitting around talking about the Internet. One of these ladies gets irritated with another and announces that she's going to unfriend her as she pulls the photo of her friend down off of the living room wall. I feel like the third woman sitting in the room saying "that's not how it works, that's not how any of this works", lol.
The difference when it comes to the CB!100 is that Honda never claimed that there were any performance gains to be made with respect to the dual shocks, the steel cradle frame or the air-cooled engine. In fact, they went to great extremes to set the opposite expectation and point out that performance isn't what they were going for. The most notable thing about the CB1100 is that air-cooled engine was the first Honda had developed in over twenty years. Not for performance gains, but for providing a retro experience. Obviously that doesn't sell so well, but again, I don't think that this was Honda's driving point when it comes to this bike unlike Triumph which is very heavily dependent upon the Bonnevilles.
(02-11-2018, 03:21 PM)Capo_imp Wrote: (02-11-2018, 03:12 PM)Ulvetanna_imp Wrote: (02-11-2018, 02:43 PM)Guth_imp Wrote: The shame in Ulvetanna's recording example is not that the young musicians decided to record to analog, but that they wanted to master the recording digitally. If the intent is to make the music available in an analog format then just skip the digital portions of the recording chain all together. The real problem with this scenario is that very few people have a decent enough playback system anymore to hear the difference between a recording made with low-end digital recording equipment and one made meticulously with an all-analog process (and that's if they even care). Most people now tend to listen to music through their computer speakers or via crappy headphones so it doesn't really matter that much to them. When it comes to recording music, if the desire is simply to make your music available for the masses via any of the digital based formats then don't bother with going to the trouble to incorporate analog technology into the mix, just let the music stand on it's own. Whether it's recorded music or motorcycles —I'd much rather see manufacturers leave the bogus stuff out/off.
Vinyl albums that were digitally recorded are exactly the same to me as a water-cooled bike sporting "air-cooling' fins, or using offset cylinder timing to create some unevenness in an otherwise amazingly smooth engine. Just like digitally recorded vinyl records, these things are done for no other reason than to sell more product (typically to people that don't know any better). Millennials go for this kind of thing with their music, as di some of us old farts with our motorcycles. Obviously I'm not thrilled with Honda's decision to intentionally make the engine run rougher. I will tell people that I bought the CB despite such a decision by Honda. In the case of Triumph, of course the fins add "some cooling' by the nature of physics, but they could have just as easily been left off. This along with the fuel injection being tarted up as carbs is exactly the same as digital recordings being transferred to vinyl records. The difference isn't so much the products involved but the age groups that they are being marketed to. Most vinyl records these days are being sold to millennials and most retro motorcycles are being sold to older guys. Either way, the marketers are counting on these different sets of consumers to buy into the image that they've worked so hard (and in the examples above, have gone above and beyond) to create. The one thing about the CB1100 which I have said quite a few times is that it really is an air-cooled inline four. It feels like it, runs like it. It's about as close to vinyl as one could get. It's not modeled. So you are in fact experiencing the real thing so to speak.
The Royal Enfields are also air-cooled and pretty retro from all I can see. The twins should be really nice bikes. The one thing about the CB1100 which I have said quite a few times is that it really is an air-cooled inline four. It feels like it, runs like it. It's about as close to vinyl as one could get. It's not modeled. So you are in fact experiencing the real thing so to speak.
The Royal Enfields are also air-cooled and pretty retro from all I can see. The twins should be really nice bikes.
One could argue that Honda dropped the ball and doomed the CB to the marginal sales success that it is by hewing too close on authenticity and delivering an underwhelming performance envelope. I get the design brief and labor of love that the CB is, but from a marketing standpoint, Honda’s conservative take on the CB, particularly considering how earthshaking the CB 750 was, to me is much more bothersome than fake fins.
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(02-11-2018, 02:43 PM)Guth_imp Wrote: The shame in Ulvetanna's recording example is not that the young musicians decided to record to analog, but that they wanted to master the recording digitally. If the intent is to make the music available in an analog format then just skip the digital portions of the recording chain all together. The real problem with this scenario is that very few people have a decent enough playback system anymore to hear the difference between a recording made with low-end digital recording equipment and one made meticulously with an all-analog process (and that's if they even care). Most people now tend to listen to music through their computer speakers or via crappy headphones so it doesn't really matter that much to them. When it comes to recording music, if the desire is simply to make your music available for the masses via any of the digital based formats then don't bother with going to the trouble to incorporate analog technology into the mix, just let the music stand on it's own. Whether it's recorded music or motorcycles —I'd much rather see manufacturers leave the bogus stuff out/off.
Vinyl albums that were digitally recorded are exactly the same to me as a water-cooled bike sporting "air-cooling' fins, or using offset cylinder timing to create some unevenness in an otherwise amazingly smooth engine. Just like digitally recorded vinyl records, these things are done for no other reason than to sell more product (typically to people that don't know any better). Millennials go for this kind of thing with their music, as di some of us old farts with our motorcycles. Obviously I'm not thrilled with Honda's decision to intentionally make the engine run rougher. I will tell people that I bought the CB despite such a decision by Honda. In the case of Triumph, of course the fins add "some cooling' by the nature of physics, but they could have just as easily been left off. This along with the fuel injection being tarted up as carbs is exactly the same as digital recordings being transferred to vinyl records. The difference isn't so much the products involved but the age groups that they are being marketed to. Most vinyl records these days are being sold to millennials and most retro motorcycles are being sold to older guys. Either way, the marketers are counting on these different sets of consumers to buy into the image that they've worked so hard (and in the examples above, have gone above and beyond) to create.
Regarding music, people have traded fidelity for portability. And it’s a darn good deal. I enjoy vinyl as much as the next guy...my buds and I have monthly vinyl listening nights... but I’ll take Spotify and 30 million songs at my fingertips anywhere I am on earth, for $14/ month, over having to plop myself down in my den to listen to a record. Every day. I’m failing to see the link between fins on water cools motorcycle engines, and the consumption of music.
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Consumption of music is one thing. Trying to pass off digitally recorded vinyl albums as being superior to say CDs is another thing all together.
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Ulvetanna Wrote:So a bike that looks cool, seems to do the watusi, and has the right branding will sell.
And there it is.
Dude, you are Officially Old.
:polite golf applause:
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(02-11-2018, 04:27 PM)VLJ_imp Wrote: Ulvetanna Wrote:So a bike that looks cool, seems to do the watusi, and has the right branding will sell.
And there it is.
Dude, you are Officially Old.
:polite golf applause:
But please, not after 10:00 p.m..
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I just wish they would stick to one format. I have had to buy my rock music collection 3 times now, Vinyl, 8 track and CD lol
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(02-12-2018, 01:58 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: I just wish they would stick to one format. I have had to buy my rock music collection 3 times now, Vinyl, 8 track and CD lol
Now you have to buy it on-line, and throw away your turntable, 8-track player, cassette deck, CD player, MP3 player, last year's I-Pad and cell phone. Gotta have the latest device or the young droids will frown upon you.
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(02-12-2018, 01:58 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: I just wish they would stick to one format. I have had to buy my rock music collection 3 times now, Vinyl, 8 track and CD lol
Just get Spotify. Even the crustiest old music fans I know have thanked me profusely after nudging them to it. Every song, artist, playlist, bespoke station, and sounds much better than compressed files.
If any of you are interested, go to my FB page ‘The Isle of Man Music Indulgence Society’ and get a taste of the collaborative playlists we build each week.
Keep the vinyl and get rid of everything else, Ferret!
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(02-11-2018, 03:19 PM)Ulvetanna_imp Wrote: (02-11-2018, 03:15 PM)Capo_imp Wrote: Imagine what the WC Triumph engines would look like without those fins. It would be ridiculous. Aesthetics matter, as do heritage signals, I’d not lose much sleep over this stuff.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk I would never have purchased one, er, two had they not had the look. I've got a Z650 which is an example of pure efficiency and light weight. It's a very different kind of bike. It'll run circles around the Street Cup but isn't the same thing at all. I would never have purchased one, er, two had they not had the look. I've got a Z650 which is an example of pure efficiency and light weight. It's a very different kind of bike. It'll run circles around the Street Cup but isn't the same thing at all.
Precisely. I don’t think the retro models are trying to fool anyone, other than those who don’t know they aren’t old bikes, and approach us and say, ‘man, nice restoration!’
I live in a town with a good number of Dutch Colonial homes, and many newly built homes attempt to go retro by using mansard roofs. Most folks aren’t fooled, and even fewer take umbrage.
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