Cylinder Plating?

[Dakota_imp]

Hi Dakota.
Electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of the crankcase, as opposed to a distinct cylinder block, which is then bolted to the top half of the crankcase. Honda was the first of the Big-4 who started doing this, and they touted "lighter weight", "reduced gasket interfaces", "17% stiffer", etc.
Honda now does this to nearly all of their sportbike lineup, but it's not a good idea IMO, and here's why: when you wear out a cylinder block, you can replace it--just bolt a new one on, replace the piston rings and a few other parts. But when you wear out the cylinders bored into the top half of a crankcase, you must replace that entire crankcase, the crankbearings, and many other non-transferrable parts--essentially the entire engine.
Crankcases are drilled and finished as sets, so you cannot simply replace the top half.

[/quote]

OK. I am on the same page now. It may be semantics, but the crankcase is the structure surrounding the crankshaft. The cylinder barrel is what houses the piston. The engine block is the combination of the two.

Many aftermarket companies offer sleeves for motorcycles. I don't understand why you couldn't have bored the original engine and installed one? Even my lowly B&S push mower has an iron sleeve. Only the cheapest garbage mowers have parent bore engines with no sleeve. This is not a dig against your bike; I am sure that they designer used something to increase wear life. But, it seems to me that iron would be the best...

If a sportbike has a high piston speed, it will wear out faster than similar motorcycles with lower piston speeds.

Honda has made some "blunders" with oiling with its' engines over the years. The original V4's, V45 and V65 needed extra external oil lines to keep the cams happy. You guys may know of more examples. So I would not discount that they make design errors from time to time and simply cheapen the product.

What really bothers me is that there is NO excuse for this. I am a degreed engineer, have owned GM vehicles my entire life, and have models spanning from '47 to '06. I have an interest in engine development history and read SAE journals for fun at night to clear my head. Much of what is good engineering practice was known for a long time but GM never seems to learn their lessons and has always lagged far behind state of the art engineering practices. And, they do it because they can. People will continue to buy garbage because the outside is shiny and the inside smells new.

GM and Ford can't seem to build reliable ignition switches and we are going to trust them with drive by wire steering???????

[dave]

23 years ago I asked the BMW factory tech what wears out on my K75RT. He said the rider wears out! 24 years latter he was correct! The bike still has lots of life, more than I have.


Sent from my iPad using [url=http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1]Tapatalk

BMW is not motorraadfabriek it once was. I wouldn't trade your K75 for three of the new F800STs.

There's a guy over on the Nighthawk site with over 250K miles on his CB750. The engine has never been apart.

And Honda is not the quality-control powerhouse that it once was either. I predict that CB750 will outlast more than a few CB1100s.

I have seen plenty of Honda car engines apart with well over 150k miles on them and you can still see honing marks in the good old fashion iron sleeves they use in there cars.

The people and processes that produced Honda automobiles in the 1970's are not necessarily the same people & processes that are currently producing Honda motorcycles.

Judging from past Honda inline 4 air cooled motors, Im guessing 100,000 miles or more.

If I had a nickel for every misguided squid who said that about his crotch-rocket disposabike with electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase...

BMW is not motorraadfabriek it once was. I wouldn't trade your K75 for three of the new F800STs.

There's a guy over on the Nighthawk site with over 250K miles on his CB750. The engine has never been apart.

And Honda is not the quality-control powerhouse that it once was either. I predict that CB750 will outlast more than a few CB1100s.

I have seen plenty of Honda car engines apart with well over 150k miles on them and you can still see honing marks in the good old fashion iron sleeves they use in there cars.

The people and processes that produced Honda automobiles in the 1970's are not necessarily the same people & processes that are currently producing Honda motorcycles.

Judging from past Honda inline 4 air cooled motors, Im guessing 100,000 miles or more.

If I had a nickel for every misguided squid who said that about his crotch-rocket disposabike with electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase...
I don't really understand what you are trying to say here... "electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase" As opposed to the bottom half of the crankcase? "Bored" cylinders as opposed to broached? Do you understand what is required for long life piston/ cylinder life?

Hi Dakota.
Electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of the crankcase, as opposed to a distinct cylinder block, which is then bolted to the top half of the crankcase. Honda was the first of the Big-4 who started doing this, and they touted "lighter weight", "reduced gasket interfaces", "17% stiffer", etc.
Honda now does this to nearly all of their sportbike lineup, but it's not a good idea IMO, and here's why: when you wear out a cylinder block, you can replace it--just bolt a new one on, replace the piston rings and a few other parts. But when you wear out the cylinders bored into the top half of a crankcase, you must replace that entire crankcase, the crankbearings, and many other non-transferrable parts--essentially the entire engine.
Crankcases are drilled and finished as sets, so you cannot simply replace the top half.

I found myself in this unfortunate situation with a '98 Honda Superhawk after only 50,000 miles, the cylinders had worn egg-shaped. I always used Honda synthetic oil, was meticulous in maintenance, and rode it conservatively.



Fortunately the CB11 appears to have a distinct cylinder block, but I'd like to know if those cylinders are electroplated, sintered, sleeved...? Honda has every incentive to go the cheap route (electroplating), like they did with my Superhawk: what's the point of building an engine that will last 100,000 miles if no one is riding them that much? It therefore makes more sense to reduce production costs, let the marketing guys accentuate the positive aspects of the new cost-saving (to them) features, and a few years from now, when a small minority of your customers have worn out their cost-saving design, they can be easily dismissed as anecdotal/abberations, because that was years ago and people are easily distracted by shiny magazine pictures of the next big thing.
Everyone assumes that our bikes will go 100,000+ miles, but how many of us every actually own and ride a bike that long?
If none of us are riding them that much or long, what's the point building them to last?

Hi Dakota.
Electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of the crankcase, as opposed to a distinct cylinder block, which is then bolted to the top half of the crankcase. Honda was the first of the Big-4 who started doing this, and they touted "lighter weight", "reduced gasket interfaces", "17% stiffer", etc.
Honda now does this to nearly all of their sportbike lineup, but it's not a good idea IMO, and here's why: when you wear out a cylinder block, you can replace it--just bolt a new one on, replace the piston rings and a few other parts. But when you wear out the cylinders bored into the top half of a crankcase, you must replace that entire crankcase, the crankbearings, and many other non-transferrable parts--essentially the entire engine.
Crankcases are drilled and finished as sets, so you cannot simply replace the top half.

I found myself in this unfortunate situation with a '98 Honda Superhawk after only 50,000 miles, the cylinders had worn egg-shaped. I always used Honda synthetic oil, was meticulous in maintenance, and rode it conservatively.



Fortunately the CB11 appears to have a distinct cylinder block, but I'd like to know if those cylinders are electroplated, sintered, sleeved...? Honda has every incentive to go the cheap route (electroplating), like they did with my Superhawk: what's the point of building an engine that will last 100,000 miles if no one is riding them that much? It therefore makes more sense to reduce production costs, let the marketing guys accentuate the positive aspects of the new cost-saving (to them) features, and a few years from now, when a small minority of your customers have worn out their cost-saving design, they can be easily dismissed as anecdotal/abberations, because that was years ago and people are easily distracted by shiny magazine pictures of the next big thing.
Everyone assumes that our bikes will go 100,000+ miles, but how many of us every actually own and ride a bike that long?
If none of us are riding them that much or long, what's the point building them to last? My 1998 VFR800 has 92,000 miles on it and it runs great. I check the valves at regular intervals and they have only needed adjustment three times so far. The engine still seems tight, and doesn't burn a drop of oil. Now if I could only say the same thing about the charging system (replaced regulator/rectifier 3X, alternator 1X) and the electronic speedometer sending unit (replaced 4X).

[calamarichris_imp]

Heh--regulator/rectifryer.
Does the VFR have a primary chain between the main crank and the tranny? Most V-twins do. The V-four is not as unbalanced as a V-twin, and do you know if the VFR has electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of the VFR's crankcase?
Your VFR is not burning any oil at all?
The wear was the leading and trailing (front back edges) of my VTR's cylinders. They were more than TWO millimeters out of round--pretty much zero compression.

[Red Mist_imp]

Hi Dakota.
Electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of the crankcase, as opposed to a distinct cylinder block, which is then bolted to the top half of the crankcase. Honda was the first of the Big-4 who started doing this, and they touted "lighter weight", "reduced gasket interfaces", "17% stiffer", etc.
Honda now does this to nearly all of their sportbike lineup, but it's not a good idea IMO, and here's why: when you wear out a cylinder block, you can replace it--just bolt a new one on, replace the piston rings and a few other parts. But when you wear out the cylinders bored into the top half of a crankcase, you must replace that entire crankcase, the crankbearings, and many other non-transferrable parts--essentially the entire engine.
Crankcases are drilled and finished as sets, so you cannot simply replace the top half.

OK. I am on the same page now. It may be semantics, but the crankcase is the structure surrounding the crankshaft. The cylinder barrel is what houses the piston. The engine block is the combination of the two.

Many aftermarket companies offer sleeves for motorcycles. I don't understand why you couldn't have bored the original engine and installed one? Even my lowly B&S push mower has an iron sleeve. Only the cheapest garbage mowers have parent bore engines with no sleeve. This is not a dig against your bike; I am sure that they designer used something to increase wear life. But, it seems to me that iron would be the best...

If a sportbike has a high piston speed, it will wear out faster than similar motorcycles with lower piston speeds.

Honda has made some "blunders" with oiling with its' engines over the years. The original V4's, V45 and V65 needed extra external oil lines to keep the cams happy. You guys may know of more examples. So I would not discount that they make design errors from time to time and simply cheapen the product.

What really bothers me is that there is NO excuse for this. I am a degreed engineer, have owned GM vehicles my entire life, and have models spanning from '47 to '06. I have an interest in engine development history and read SAE journals for fun at night to clear my head. Much of what is good engineering practice was known for a long time but GM never seems to learn their lessons and has always lagged far behind state of the art engineering practices. And, they do it because they can. People will continue to buy garbage because the outside is shiny and the inside smells new.

GM and Ford can't seem to build reliable ignition switches and we are going to trust them with drive by wire steering???????
[/quote] Have a couple of new 2013 drive by wire (electric steering) Chevys in the family: A Sonic and Equinox. Also have a Toyota Venza with electric steering.

The Chevys have got it down. They work very well. Toyota is good too, but tends to hunt a little more. Has a little more of a mind of its own.

Now the new Tahoe also has electric steering. It's the future. No hydraulic leaks and you don't have to back off at the limit to prevent it from howling.

[Dakota_imp]

Hi Dakota.
Electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of the crankcase, as opposed to a distinct cylinder block, which is then bolted to the top half of the crankcase. Honda was the first of the Big-4 who started doing this, and they touted "lighter weight", "reduced gasket interfaces", "17% stiffer", etc.
Honda now does this to nearly all of their sportbike lineup, but it's not a good idea IMO, and here's why: when you wear out a cylinder block, you can replace it--just bolt a new one on, replace the piston rings and a few other parts. But when you wear out the cylinders bored into the top half of a crankcase, you must replace that entire crankcase, the crankbearings, and many other non-transferrable parts--essentially the entire engine.
Crankcases are drilled and finished as sets, so you cannot simply replace the top half.

OK. I am on the same page now. It may be semantics, but the crankcase is the structure surrounding the crankshaft. The cylinder barrel is what houses the piston. The engine block is the combination of the two.

Many aftermarket companies offer sleeves for motorcycles. I don't understand why you couldn't have bored the original engine and installed one? Even my lowly B&S push mower has an iron sleeve. Only the cheapest garbage mowers have parent bore engines with no sleeve. This is not a dig against your bike; I am sure that they designer used something to increase wear life. But, it seems to me that iron would be the best...

If a sportbike has a high piston speed, it will wear out faster than similar motorcycles with lower piston speeds.

Honda has made some "blunders" with oiling with its' engines over the years. The original V4's, V45 and V65 needed extra external oil lines to keep the cams happy. You guys may know of more examples. So I would not discount that they make design errors from time to time and simply cheapen the product.

What really bothers me is that there is NO excuse for this. I am a degreed engineer, have owned GM vehicles my entire life, and have models spanning from '47 to '06. I have an interest in engine development history and read SAE journals for fun at night to clear my head. Much of what is good engineering practice was known for a long time but GM never seems to learn their lessons and has always lagged far behind state of the art engineering practices. And, they do it because they can. People will continue to buy garbage because the outside is shiny and the inside smells new.

GM and Ford can't seem to build reliable ignition switches and we are going to trust them with drive by wire steering???????

Have a couple of new 2013 drive by wire (electric steering) Chevys in the family: A Sonic and Equinox. Also have a Toyota Venza with electric steering.

The Chevys have got it down. They work very well. Toyota is good too, but tends to hunt a little more. Has a little more of a mind of its own.

Now the new Tahoe also has electric steering. It's the future. No hydraulic leaks and you don't have to back off at the limit to prevent it from howling.
[/quote] Have a couple of new 2013 drive by wire (electric steering) Chevys in the family: A Sonic and Equinox. Also have a Toyota Venza with electric steering.

The Chevys have got it down. They work very well. Toyota is good too, but tends to hunt a little more. Has a little more of a mind of its own.

Now the new Tahoe also has electric steering. It's the future. No hydraulic leaks and you don't have to back off at the limit to prevent it from howling.
I guess that I've had a bit less than good luck with my vehicles and my confidence is low. I have NO idea what to purchase when it is time to replace in a couple of years.

[the Ferret]

Cars are like motorcycles and no one can say what is right for you. We all have our preferences. Hard to go wrong with the top rated brands Honda, Toyota or Lexus . I hear Mazdas and Subarus are good as well..unless you prefer American then I think you have 3 choices.

I love Hondas. My wife and I have had 7 Accords and Civics, a CRV, an Odyssey and a Ridgeline. All of ours have been like Honda motorcycles .... quiet, smooth, efficient and reliable. My wife is saving for her retirement vehicle now. She has 3 more years to go. She wants another Accord. My ex boss and his family only drives Toyotas. My brother and his wife loves Chryslers. Like motorcycles..to each his own.

[shdwghst457_imp]

Honda fan here too; my wife has had 3 or 4 regular Accords, 2 2005 Accord Hybrids and a Rebel; I have an Acura RL, formerly a Shadow and of course my CB, as well as my poorly maintained yet still reliable Honda lawnmower (non-rider with three speed transmission, the 'Lawndamatic'). I do miss my Tundra though, and Honda won't make a real truck (Pilots with a fiberglass bed don't count, but that dual action tailgate is impressive)

[dave]

Heh--regulator/rectifryer.
Does the VFR have a primary chain between the main crank and the tranny? Most V-twins do. The V-four is not as unbalanced as a V-twin, and do you know if the VFR has electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of the VFR's crankcase?
Your VFR is not burning any oil at all?
The wear was the leading and trailing (front back edges) of my VTR's cylinders. They were more than TWO millimeters out of round--pretty much zero compression.

My VFR does not use a primary drive chain between the crankshaft and the transmission. The cylinders are integral with the upper crankcase, but they are not electro-plated - I know this because I just checked, and Honda sells over-sized pistons for it. From the view in my service manual it appears that the cylinder liners are pressed into the upper crankcase, and I assume that they are probably cast iron. I change the motor oil every 3,000 miles and the level have never gone down between oil changes.

[Red Mist_imp]

Honda fan here too; my wife has had 3 or 4 regular Accords, 2 2005 Accord Hybrids and a Rebel; I have an Acura RL, formerly a Shadow and of course my CB, as well as my poorly maintained yet still reliable Honda lawnmower (non-rider with three speed transmission, the 'Lawndamatic'). I do miss my Tundra though, and Honda won't make a real truck (Pilots with a fiberglass bed don't count, but that dual action tailgate is impressive)

I don't miss my Tundra at all, and it, too, is not a real truck. A real truck has a separate ladder frame upon which the body is attached. The Tundra still uses a unit-body construction.

I had two Tundras, a 2005 which was an abomination, had the worst brakes imaginable that would hardly slow the truck down even when unloaded (which it always was). Drum rear brakes? WTH? This was the four-dour "Limited" with the 4.7 V8. After two years I got the new version, 381 HP 5.7 with much better brakes, and kept it five years.

I had written off American cars a long time ago but wanted a "real" truck and so GM, Ford, or Dodge were the only way to go. That narrowed it down to Chevy, since I didn't like the looks of the Ford or Dodge full-size SUV's. I will admit I was shocked at how good the vehicle was during the test drive, and more than a year later I could not be happier with it.

I thought the 2007 Tundra was pretty good, but it just never grew on me. I never really liked driving it and when I got the Tahoe, I realized that there is no comparison. In every way it is smoother, more responsive, quieter, and more refined. Day and night. The main reason is the real-truck, ladder frame. No contest, the Tahoe drives far, far better.

The Toyota has the overhead cam 32-valve engine, very noisy. Gas mileage was awful, but yes, it would haul ass up the grade with my toy hauler behind.

That old-fashioned 16-valve engine in the Tahoe is simple, smooth, and reliable. Also has a six-speed transmission and cuts out four cylinders as needed. Hard to believe but this vehicle gets in the low to mid-20's on the freeway; I've seen 26 mpg many times.

Had it for a year, not one single thing has gone wrong with it and I have zero issues, other than that I replaced the low-end radio with an aftermarket unit.

It was the quality of the Tahoe that led us to purchase the other two Chevrolets and the story is the same with them.

My family have been loyal Toyota owners for almost 20 years, but that's over now. GM has really gotten its act together in my personal experience.

The new Tahoe has an uprated aluminum engine with even more power and a bunch of other upgrades but as with the new CB1100 I certainly am not going to trade in my 2013 on it.

[Dakota_imp]

Popular literature says that the big three have gotten better; the engineering forums say that the imports have gotten worse.

I have a 2002 Dodge ram 2500 with the 5.9 Cummins purchased new. Having previously owned a Chrysler car which was a POS, I only purchased the dodge ram because dodge had nothing to do with the drivetrain. The Cummins has a great reputation as a durable engine. Looked at objectively, it is an economy diesel engine. I am currently at ~82k miles. I had to replace the injection pump and lift pump at 60k miles. Not typical, but unheard of. I have kept up with antifreeze replacement and used long life, diesel antifreeze; the heater core is leaking. I have to put in refrigerant every spring to get cold AC. I had to put in all new brake shoes and rotors last year. The original pads swelled up, disintegrated and wore out the rotors. Seems like a lot of repairs for less than 100k miles. I very rarely tow with the truck but when I do it sucks down fuel with impunity.

My GM vehicles are all far worse. Lots of leaks. GM's wonderful combination of dexcool and plastic lower intake manifold gaskets. Worn out tie rod ends. Poor brakes. Radio digital encoders that quit working. Heater motor resistors. Etc.