Cylinder Plating?

[DAC]

^^^^
Great post. They don't build 'em like they used to. In many cases, that's a GOOD thing!

[Dakota_imp]

23 years ago I asked the BMW factory tech what wears out on my K75RT. He said the rider wears out! 24 years latter he was correct! The bike still has lots of life, more than I have.


Sent from my iPad using [url=http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1]Tapatalk

BMW is not motorraadfabriek it once was. I wouldn't trade your K75 for three of the new F800STs.

There's a guy over on the Nighthawk site with over 250K miles on his CB750. The engine has never been apart.

And Honda is not the quality-control powerhouse that it once was either. I predict that CB750 will outlast more than a few CB1100s.

I have seen plenty of Honda car engines apart with well over 150k miles on them and you can still see honing marks in the good old fashion iron sleeves they use in there cars.

The people and processes that produced Honda automobiles in the 1970's are not necessarily the same people & processes that are currently producing Honda motorcycles.

Judging from past Honda inline 4 air cooled motors, Im guessing 100,000 miles or more.

If I had a nickel for every misguided squid who said that about his crotch-rocket disposabike with electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase...

BMW is not motorraadfabriek it once was. I wouldn't trade your K75 for three of the new F800STs.

There's a guy over on the Nighthawk site with over 250K miles on his CB750. The engine has never been apart.

And Honda is not the quality-control powerhouse that it once was either. I predict that CB750 will outlast more than a few CB1100s.

I have seen plenty of Honda car engines apart with well over 150k miles on them and you can still see honing marks in the good old fashion iron sleeves they use in there cars.

The people and processes that produced Honda automobiles in the 1970's are not necessarily the same people & processes that are currently producing Honda motorcycles.

Judging from past Honda inline 4 air cooled motors, Im guessing 100,000 miles or more.

If I had a nickel for every misguided squid who said that about his crotch-rocket disposabike with electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase...
I don't really understand what you are trying to say here... "electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase" As opposed to the bottom half of the crankcase? "Bored" cylinders as opposed to broached? Do you understand what is required for long life piston/ cylinder life?

[Red Mist_imp]

23 years ago I asked the BMW factory tech what wears out on my K75RT. He said the rider wears out! 24 years latter he was correct! The bike still has lots of life, more than I have.


Sent from my iPad using [url=http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1]Tapatalk

BMW is not motorraadfabriek it once was. I wouldn't trade your K75 for three of the new F800STs.

There's a guy over on the Nighthawk site with over 250K miles on his CB750. The engine has never been apart.

And Honda is not the quality-control powerhouse that it once was either. I predict that CB750 will outlast more than a few CB1100s.

I have seen plenty of Honda car engines apart with well over 150k miles on them and you can still see honing marks in the good old fashion iron sleeves they use in there cars.

The people and processes that produced Honda automobiles in the 1970's are not necessarily the same people & processes that are currently producing Honda motorcycles.

Judging from past Honda inline 4 air cooled motors, Im guessing 100,000 miles or more.

If I had a nickel for every misguided squid who said that about his crotch-rocket disposabike with electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase...

BMW is not motorraadfabriek it once was. I wouldn't trade your K75 for three of the new F800STs.

There's a guy over on the Nighthawk site with over 250K miles on his CB750. The engine has never been apart.

And Honda is not the quality-control powerhouse that it once was either. I predict that CB750 will outlast more than a few CB1100s.

I have seen plenty of Honda car engines apart with well over 150k miles on them and you can still see honing marks in the good old fashion iron sleeves they use in there cars.

The people and processes that produced Honda automobiles in the 1970's are not necessarily the same people & processes that are currently producing Honda motorcycles.

Judging from past Honda inline 4 air cooled motors, Im guessing 100,000 miles or more.

If I had a nickel for every misguided squid who said that about his crotch-rocket disposabike with electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase...
I don't really understand what you are trying to say here... "electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase" As opposed to the bottom half of the crankcase? "Bored" cylinders as opposed to broached? Do you understand what is required for long life piston/ cylinder life?

BMW is not motorraadfabriek it once was. I wouldn't trade your K75 for three of the new F800STs.

There's a guy over on the Nighthawk site with over 250K miles on his CB750. The engine has never been apart.

And Honda is not the quality-control powerhouse that it once was either. I predict that CB750 will outlast more than a few CB1100s.

I have seen plenty of Honda car engines apart with well over 150k miles on them and you can still see honing marks in the good old fashion iron sleeves they use in there cars.

The people and processes that produced Honda automobiles in the 1970's are not necessarily the same people & processes that are currently producing Honda motorcycles.

Judging from past Honda inline 4 air cooled motors, Im guessing 100,000 miles or more.

If I had a nickel for every misguided squid who said that about his crotch-rocket disposabike with electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase...
I don't really understand what you are trying to say here... "electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase" As opposed to the bottom half of the crankcase? "Bored" cylinders as opposed to broached? Do you understand what is required for long life piston/ cylinder life? Consider yourself schooled, Dakota.

[Dakota_imp]

23 years ago I asked the BMW factory tech what wears out on my K75RT. He said the rider wears out! 24 years latter he was correct! The bike still has lots of life, more than I have.


Sent from my iPad using [url=http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1]Tapatalk

BMW is not motorraadfabriek it once was. I wouldn't trade your K75 for three of the new F800STs.

There's a guy over on the Nighthawk site with over 250K miles on his CB750. The engine has never been apart.

And Honda is not the quality-control powerhouse that it once was either. I predict that CB750 will outlast more than a few CB1100s.

I have seen plenty of Honda car engines apart with well over 150k miles on them and you can still see honing marks in the good old fashion iron sleeves they use in there cars.

The people and processes that produced Honda automobiles in the 1970's are not necessarily the same people & processes that are currently producing Honda motorcycles.

Judging from past Honda inline 4 air cooled motors, Im guessing 100,000 miles or more.

If I had a nickel for every misguided squid who said that about his crotch-rocket disposabike with electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase...

BMW is not motorraadfabriek it once was. I wouldn't trade your K75 for three of the new F800STs.

There's a guy over on the Nighthawk site with over 250K miles on his CB750. The engine has never been apart.

And Honda is not the quality-control powerhouse that it once was either. I predict that CB750 will outlast more than a few CB1100s.

I have seen plenty of Honda car engines apart with well over 150k miles on them and you can still see honing marks in the good old fashion iron sleeves they use in there cars.

The people and processes that produced Honda automobiles in the 1970's are not necessarily the same people & processes that are currently producing Honda motorcycles.

Judging from past Honda inline 4 air cooled motors, Im guessing 100,000 miles or more.

If I had a nickel for every misguided squid who said that about his crotch-rocket disposabike with electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase...
I don't really understand what you are trying to say here... "electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase" As opposed to the bottom half of the crankcase? "Bored" cylinders as opposed to broached? Do you understand what is required for long life piston/ cylinder life?

BMW is not motorraadfabriek it once was. I wouldn't trade your K75 for three of the new F800STs.

There's a guy over on the Nighthawk site with over 250K miles on his CB750. The engine has never been apart.

And Honda is not the quality-control powerhouse that it once was either. I predict that CB750 will outlast more than a few CB1100s.

I have seen plenty of Honda car engines apart with well over 150k miles on them and you can still see honing marks in the good old fashion iron sleeves they use in there cars.

The people and processes that produced Honda automobiles in the 1970's are not necessarily the same people & processes that are currently producing Honda motorcycles.

Judging from past Honda inline 4 air cooled motors, Im guessing 100,000 miles or more.

If I had a nickel for every misguided squid who said that about his crotch-rocket disposabike with electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase...
I don't really understand what you are trying to say here... "electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase" As opposed to the bottom half of the crankcase? "Bored" cylinders as opposed to broached? Do you understand what is required for long life piston/ cylinder life? Consider yourself schooled, Dakota.

BMW is not motorraadfabriek it once was. I wouldn't trade your K75 for three of the new F800STs.

There's a guy over on the Nighthawk site with over 250K miles on his CB750. The engine has never been apart.

And Honda is not the quality-control powerhouse that it once was either. I predict that CB750 will outlast more than a few CB1100s.

I have seen plenty of Honda car engines apart with well over 150k miles on them and you can still see honing marks in the good old fashion iron sleeves they use in there cars.

The people and processes that produced Honda automobiles in the 1970's are not necessarily the same people & processes that are currently producing Honda motorcycles.

Judging from past Honda inline 4 air cooled motors, Im guessing 100,000 miles or more.

If I had a nickel for every misguided squid who said that about his crotch-rocket disposabike with electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase...
I don't really understand what you are trying to say here... "electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase" As opposed to the bottom half of the crankcase? "Bored" cylinders as opposed to broached? Do you understand what is required for long life piston/ cylinder life? Consider yourself schooled, Dakota.
By whom?

[rboe]

I'm a bit confused my self. Given proper maintenance and not abused most bikes will live well beyond 100,000 miles. Alas, we don't have the hard facts to back up our arguments one way or the other, just a few data points from personal experience. Which is better than nothing I suppose but don't and can't show what the general trend is for the life of modern motorcycles.

But from what I saw at the Honda shop I worked at in the early 80's and what I hear about from fellow riders on the Guzzi site; bikes are better made now than then. BMW might be the exception. Looks like they got too clever by half and forgot their roots. From what I see in the market place today; you will have to try real hard to find a stinker in the lot. Even the "bad" ones are typically much better than what was produced in the 70's. Not saying they are trouble free nor easy and cheap to fix compared to back then, but electronic ignition is heads above points and condensors. EFI has it all over carbs. Frames and tires from back then can't hold a candle to current kit.

That said, seats may be the only thing that has gone backwards. Looks are subjective and what looks good for one generation will be different than a different generation; but there are damn few bikes that look good to my eye. Transformers have an influence that I find difficult to explain. I'm ready for it to pass.

[Capo]

I think there is a great difference between 'durability' and 'reliability' when it comes to motorbikes, and the reputations therein. '60' s Brit bikes were durable, but not reliable. Early Japanese bikes were reliable, but not as durable. Honda was the first manufacturer to combine both traits, and most modern bikes are more reliable and durable than their ancestors.

[calamarichris_imp]

23 years ago I asked the BMW factory tech what wears out on my K75RT. He said the rider wears out! 24 years latter he was correct! The bike still has lots of life, more than I have.


Sent from my iPad using [url=http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1]Tapatalk

BMW is not motorraadfabriek it once was. I wouldn't trade your K75 for three of the new F800STs.

There's a guy over on the Nighthawk site with over 250K miles on his CB750. The engine has never been apart.

And Honda is not the quality-control powerhouse that it once was either. I predict that CB750 will outlast more than a few CB1100s.

I have seen plenty of Honda car engines apart with well over 150k miles on them and you can still see honing marks in the good old fashion iron sleeves they use in there cars.

The people and processes that produced Honda automobiles in the 1970's are not necessarily the same people & processes that are currently producing Honda motorcycles.

Judging from past Honda inline 4 air cooled motors, Im guessing 100,000 miles or more.

If I had a nickel for every misguided squid who said that about his crotch-rocket disposabike with electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase...

BMW is not motorraadfabriek it once was. I wouldn't trade your K75 for three of the new F800STs.

There's a guy over on the Nighthawk site with over 250K miles on his CB750. The engine has never been apart.

And Honda is not the quality-control powerhouse that it once was either. I predict that CB750 will outlast more than a few CB1100s.

I have seen plenty of Honda car engines apart with well over 150k miles on them and you can still see honing marks in the good old fashion iron sleeves they use in there cars.

The people and processes that produced Honda automobiles in the 1970's are not necessarily the same people & processes that are currently producing Honda motorcycles.

Judging from past Honda inline 4 air cooled motors, Im guessing 100,000 miles or more.

If I had a nickel for every misguided squid who said that about his crotch-rocket disposabike with electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase...
I don't really understand what you are trying to say here... "electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of his crankcase" As opposed to the bottom half of the crankcase? "Bored" cylinders as opposed to broached? Do you understand what is required for long life piston/ cylinder life?

Hi Dakota.
Electroplated cylinders bored into the top half of the crankcase, as opposed to a distinct cylinder block, which is then bolted to the top half of the crankcase. Honda was the first of the Big-4 who started doing this, and they touted "lighter weight", "reduced gasket interfaces", "17% stiffer", etc.
Honda now does this to nearly all of their sportbike lineup, but it's not a good idea IMO, and here's why: when you wear out a cylinder block, you can replace it--just bolt a new one on, replace the piston rings and a few other parts. But when you wear out the cylinders bored into the top half of a crankcase, you must replace that entire crankcase, the crankbearings, and many other non-transferrable parts--essentially the entire engine.
Crankcases are drilled and finished as sets, so you cannot simply replace the top half.

I found myself in this unfortunate situation with a '98 Honda Superhawk after only 50,000 miles, the cylinders had worn egg-shaped. I always used Honda synthetic oil, was meticulous in maintenance, and rode it conservatively.



Fortunately the CB11 appears to have a distinct cylinder block, but I'd like to know if those cylinders are electroplated, sintered, sleeved...? Honda has every incentive to go the cheap route (electroplating), like they did with my Superhawk: what's the point of building an engine that will last 100,000 miles if no one is riding them that much? It therefore makes more sense to reduce production costs, let the marketing guys accentuate the positive aspects of the new cost-saving (to them) features, and a few years from now, when a small minority of your customers have worn out their cost-saving design, they can be easily dismissed as anecdotal/abberations, because that was years ago and people are easily distracted by shiny magazine pictures of the next big thing.
Everyone assumes that our bikes will go 100,000+ miles, but how many of us every actually own and ride a bike that long?
If none of us are riding them that much or long, what's the point building them to last?

[Cormanus]

All this is way too technical for me, but I hope to have my CB1100 for a very long time. I hope you're wrong Chris, and that it is built to last. I suspect, though, that your analysis of the incentives maybe on the money. *sigh*

[calamarichris_imp]

No sighs, dude. In all likelihood, the CB11 is built to last. And I'm not asserting that it isn't, just that Honda is no longer the paragon of longevity that it once was IMO.
It may simply be a matter of Honda very correctly reading the market: scant few sport bikes will ever see more than 50,000 miles, so it's foolish to build them to last to 100K. And there's every likelihood that they are only doing that with their sportbikes, and not with the retro/cruisers like the CB.

[Cormanus]

No sighs, dude. In all likelihood, the CB11 is built to last. And I'm not asserting that it isn't, just that Honda is no longer the paragon of longevity that it once was IMO.
It may simply be a matter of Honda very correctly reading the market: scant few sport bikes will ever see more than 50,000 miles, so it's foolish to build them to last to 100K. And there's every likelihood that they are only doing that with their sportbikes, and not with the retro/cruisers like the CB.

I guess we'll find out at some point. And I might have learned more by then.