07-09-2015, 02:12 PM
(06-11-2015, 10:03 AM)ChipBeck_imp Wrote:(06-11-2015, 08:45 AM)twiin640_imp Wrote: I'm a big fan of getting off of foreign oil and also breaking the oil monopoly that's existed in this country for the last 100 years. To that end I've been doing much research on alternative fuels and particularly ethanol. The country of Brazil is currently almost completely if not 100% free of the foreign oil dilemma because of their extensive use of ethanol. I have found lots of information to prove that ethanol is completely safe for almost every vehicle made since the late 90's.
With my current mix ratio, I currently run approx. 42% ethanol in one of my vehicles. Worked out that way the last tank because I simply filled it half and half with E85 and gasoline. I can tell you after running it for approx 300 miles that there have been no ill effects. The engine actually runs smoother and cooler.
I also have to address the mpg topic. If ethanol is burned in an engine optimized for gasoline, which all of our engines are, it's not logical to expect it to get the same results as a gallon of gasoline as far as mpg. But if an engine that normally burns gasoline is optimized to burn ethanol, many studies have shown that the mpg increases.
The last item to mention is that there have been no documented cases that ethanol has harmed any engine or parts from it's use. Much of that confusion has come from methanol which can cause problems to gasoline engines. Almost every vehicle manufactured in this country since 1990 is ethanol friendly.
Alternative fuels won't be going away. The Clean Air Act of 1970 will make sure of that. It's interesting reading if anyone gets the time to check it out. I'm not trying to start a heated debate here or anything like that. I'm just a very concerned citizen who wants to break free of foreign oil and the oil monopoly and I'm doing what I can to get there.
Gentlemen,
The above is so rife with unquestionable errors that a few must be pointed out. First, I have been a new car dealer for GM, KIA, Lotus, and GMC Trucks for over a quarter of a century. Next, as a multi location Chevron dealer today and one of the largest retailers of E-85 in Arizona I am qualified to speak here.
1. The United States is oil independent today and thanks to the fracking revolution we are a net exporter of oil.
2. A gallon of Ethanol only contains 65% as much energy as a gallon of gasoline. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. Many GM and Ford vehicles are Flex Fuel (including my new 2015 F-150) and the vehicle can determine the % of Ethanol up to 85% and adjust engine settings to run properly on it. None of them get "better mileage", none of them get the same mileage, every one of them get about 30% poorer mileage. My F-150 does worse than that on E-85.
3. Ethanol is not safe to use in almost every vehicle made since the 1990's unless you are talking about E-10 (10% ethanol). E-85 isn't even safe for regular gas pumps let alone non-Flex Fuel cars and trucks. E-85 is so corrosive that I had to buy special tanks with all stainless steel motors, lines, and sensors. The pumps and nozzles on my E-85 pumps are much more expensive than my gas pumps because everything needs to be stainless. Non Flex Fuel cars won't run properly, if they run at all, on E-85. It will void your warranty and rust your fuel system components.
4. My regular gas tanks have water sensors to tell me if water is collecting on the bottom. There are no water sensors in my E-85 tanks because Ethanol soaks up water like a sponge. If water ever gets in it gets pumped into peoples cars diluted into the fuel.
5. You claim that "many studies have shown that the mpg increases". I do this for a living and I haven't seen one study from any credible source that claims better mileage from Ethanol which contains 1/3 less energy per gallon. Please quote a source.
6. "The last item to mention is that there have been no documented cases that ethanol has harmed any engine or parts from it's use." This leaves me incredulous. Not one documented case?!?!? At least once a month I have a customer that is not paying attention fill up with E-85 in a non Flex Fuel car and drive away. They call furious when their car stops running and the typical cost to tow the car, drain the tank, clean out the fuel lines and get them back on the road is about $500. Let that E-85 sit in the car for a month and the cost to repair the rusted components can run into the thousands. Cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles, and all manner of power equipment numbering in the millions have been damaged by Ethanol. A new Dressor-Wayne gas pump costs about $15,000.00. If you pump E-85 with it the warranty is voided immediately. In order to pump E-85 I have to buy the $20,000 model with stainless guts.
7. So why do I sell E-85? The Maracopa County Board of Supervisors makes E-85 use mandatory for all taxi cabs servicing the Phoenix airport and my station is right by the airport. The cab drivers hate it even though it costs 20-25% less than gasoline because they are getting 30% less mileage in their flex fuel Chevrolet's. They cuss about it all the time but they are forced to use it so I sell it.
8. It takes over 100 gallons of water and almost a gallon of high energy diesel (to farm and transport the corn), tons of fertilizer and farmland, and more to produce one gallon of low energy Ethanol. Great for farmers, bad for everybody else.
9. Finally, "the oil monopoly that's existed in this country for the last 100 years" is quite a statement. Exxon-Mobil is the largest oil company in the U.S. and is the largest independent (non-government owned) oil company in the world. They control less than 3% of the world oil market. Chevron is #2 and they control less than 2% of the world market. That's quite a monopoly. Exxon is dwarfed by the state owned oil companies and is the 14th largest oil company globally. There are over 100 oil companies competing in the U.S. alone today. Monopoly? Seriously?? In the 1960's the telephone company was a monopoly. Exxon-Mobil doesn't command squat with their 3% market share.
If Ethanol made any sense people wouldn't need to be forced to buy it. All the best.
Chip Beck
Owner/Operator
Team CB Petroleum Properties
Gentlemen,
The above is so rife with unquestionable errors that a few must be pointed out. First, I have been a new car dealer for GM, KIA, Lotus, and GMC Trucks for over a quarter of a century. Next, as a multi location Chevron dealer today and one of the largest retailers of E-85 in Arizona I am qualified to speak here.
1. The United States is oil independent today and thanks to the fracking revolution we are a net exporter of oil.
2. A gallon of Ethanol only contains 65% as much energy as a gallon of gasoline. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. Many GM and Ford vehicles are Flex Fuel (including my new 2015 F-150) and the vehicle can determine the % of Ethanol up to 85% and adjust engine settings to run properly on it. None of them get "better mileage", none of them get the same mileage, every one of them get about 30% poorer mileage. My F-150 does worse than that on E-85.
3. Ethanol is not safe to use in almost every vehicle made since the 1990's unless you are talking about E-10 (10% ethanol). E-85 isn't even safe for regular gas pumps let alone non-Flex Fuel cars and trucks. E-85 is so corrosive that I had to buy special tanks with all stainless steel motors, lines, and sensors. The pumps and nozzles on my E-85 pumps are much more expensive than my gas pumps because everything needs to be stainless. Non Flex Fuel cars won't run properly, if they run at all, on E-85. It will void your warranty and rust your fuel system components.
4. My regular gas tanks have water sensors to tell me if water is collecting on the bottom. There are no water sensors in my E-85 tanks because Ethanol soaks up water like a sponge. If water ever gets in it gets pumped into peoples cars diluted into the fuel.
5. You claim that "many studies have shown that the mpg increases". I do this for a living and I haven't seen one study from any credible source that claims better mileage from Ethanol which contains 1/3 less energy per gallon. Please quote a source.
6. "The last item to mention is that there have been no documented cases that ethanol has harmed any engine or parts from it's use." This leaves me incredulous. Not one documented case?!?!? At least once a month I have a customer that is not paying attention fill up with E-85 in a non Flex Fuel car and drive away. They call furious when their car stops running and the typical cost to tow the car, drain the tank, clean out the fuel lines and get them back on the road is about $500. Let that E-85 sit in the car for a month and the cost to repair the rusted components can run into the thousands. Cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles, and all manner of power equipment numbering in the millions have been damaged by Ethanol. A new Dressor-Wayne gas pump costs about $15,000.00. If you pump E-85 with it the warranty is voided immediately. In order to pump E-85 I have to buy the $20,000 model with stainless guts.
7. So why do I sell E-85? The Maracopa County Board of Supervisors makes E-85 use mandatory for all taxi cabs servicing the Phoenix airport and my station is right by the airport. The cab drivers hate it even though it costs 20-25% less than gasoline because they are getting 30% less mileage in their flex fuel Chevrolet's. They cuss about it all the time but they are forced to use it so I sell it.
8. It takes over 100 gallons of water and almost a gallon of high energy diesel (to farm and transport the corn), tons of fertilizer and farmland, and more to produce one gallon of low energy Ethanol. Great for farmers, bad for everybody else.
9. Finally, "the oil monopoly that's existed in this country for the last 100 years" is quite a statement. Exxon-Mobil is the largest oil company in the U.S. and is the largest independent (non-government owned) oil company in the world. They control less than 3% of the world oil market. Chevron is #2 and they control less than 2% of the world market. That's quite a monopoly. Exxon is dwarfed by the state owned oil companies and is the 14th largest oil company globally. There are over 100 oil companies competing in the U.S. alone today. Monopoly? Seriously?? In the 1960's the telephone company was a monopoly. Exxon-Mobil doesn't command squat with their 3% market share.
If Ethanol made any sense people wouldn't need to be forced to buy it. All the best.
Chip Beck
Owner/Operator
Team CB Petroleum Properties Chip I respect that you were a new car dealer and now run a fuel station. I am a all things motive, I love piston engines in m/c's, cars and trucks, boats, airplanes, etc. For fun I would go to a Subaru or Chevy dealer and look at the cars that I have been reading about in magazines. When sales staff came to see if they could help and I did not want to be bothered saying "I am just looking thank you" and would not leave alone I would ask them questions. I was shocked how much sales staff, even seasoned personnel, do not know about the product they are selling. This is true for motorcycle dealers also. I began making a game out of this practice reading every thing I could about models, marque history, etc. and have my private quiz show. Not cool on my part and I haven't done this in over twenty years.
Something I found out during this time both from my observations and actually being told by the sales staff members is they do not read magazines or learn as much as they can about the products they sell. I can relate a bit though having served 20+ years in the Navy I did not study, research, and stay on top of the latest developments concerning the Navy, I was living it and wanted a break when I could get off the ship/base. So I understand that part.
When I want to learn about aftermarket products, custom parts, hot rodding, modifying a vehicle the last place to ask questions is a dealer, motorcycle dealer are a small exception on a case by case basis. New fuel technology that comes down the pike is not spread by the oil companies due to the fact it cuts their profits, pure economics, dealers are informed through their engineers who are informed by the oil companies, tell me if I am wrong. Manufactures have to build fuel systems, engines, machines, etc. based on the fuel available, who tells the manufactures what fuel is available? The oil companies, so in a way collectively motor fuels are monopolized by the oil industry as a whole, just simple observations.
It is fact alcohols in all forms(brake fluid, antifreeze, ethanol, methanol, isopropyl, etc.) absorb water and the water absorbed by the alcohol facilitates corrosion of metals, especially aluminum. Corrosion of metal is actually the oxygenation of that metal(lots of corrosion control on the ships) and the corrosion will happen over time no matter if soaked in alcohol or oil or ocean water, it can't be stopped entirely.
Any idea why the brand new brake fluid changes color from the apple juice color to pancake syrup in a matter of a few years in a closed system? All alcohols have oxygen in the molecule(I guess I just contradicted myself here) so as we all know from a few lines above I stated it is the water the causes the metal to corrode when alcohol also has oxygen it too must accelerate corrosion.
From here I am sure many will stop reading. As a new car dealer you must know, as my dad a representative of Subaru to all N. Calif. dealers from '71 to '01 that the vehicles we consumers get are a poor compromise so warranties can be honored, safety regulations met, environmental regulations adhered to, insurance companies appeased(too powerful, theft reduction, driver inability, etc.), emissions, etc. I got the opportunity to do a paper for English in college for which I chose alternative energy. I learned of fuel cells powered by gasoline, alcohol, propane, butane, etc. and e-85 fuel, different types of batteries, solar power, and how they have been and can be incorporated into our daily lives.
As far as mileage goes science, experience, and testimonials show e-85 use results in few mpg's. This link http://www.alcohol4fuel.com/id12.html during my research showed a multi-manufacture supported challenge to get an e-85 powered vehicle to perform as good or better than a gasoline powered one using off the shelf parts anybody can obtain. Y'all can read the article yourselves, amazingly simple to do.
My personal experimentation with e-85 were surprising. My '04 Colorado with I5 engine with factory 10:1 compression was my test mule. Chevy said I could run regular gasoline so that was my base line for a few years until I had e-85 available. After moving to CO I used my truck for work filling up 2 or 3 times a week, much like those taxi cabs, so instead of figuring how much mpg's I am losing I started calculating what my cost per mile is. This experiment was 10 years ago so my memory of exact mpg numbers is rusty(no pun intended). Long story short is I found mid-grade increased mpg by 2 and premium same as mid-grade. Then I began cautiously adding e-85 .5 gallon per fill up to a 20 gallon tank. At 2 gal. of e-85 mpg equaled mid-grade and any more decreased economy. Doing some basic math, assuming reg. is 10% and the e-85 is actually 85% my magic mix in a 20 gallon tank was 17.5% by volume. I have wondered if the mile high city lacking oxygen starves engines and my mix put back close to sea level oxygen?
When my wife got her flex-fuel Malibu I discovered that the cost per mile between gasoline and e-85 would be equal if e-85 was $.60 lower than reg. Today this is not the case but when gasoline was about $4/gal. e-85 was cheaper per mile to run.
All of this lengthy rambling comes down to this, alcohol does absorb water accelerating metal corrosion, pound for pound alcohol has less btu's than gasoline, modified correctly a road vehicle running e-85 can match the performance in every way of a vehicle running gasoline, even straight gasoline has a shelf life and will gum up fuel systems(albeit slower than e-85), I am geeky about cost per unit whether the unit is gallons, oz., foot, etc. so watching prices for a spread of $.60 or more I'd run e-85, as far as intentionally running anything other than straight pump gasoline that would void my warranty is a no brainer, after warranty I may do careful research into safe mixes to use in my bikes/cars. Best mpg on my '06 VT750DC Shadow Spirit is .2 gal. e-85, approx. 2oz Marvel Mystery Oil, reg. 70.3mpg, repeated 3 times. Just saying. Careful research and experimentation.
Look up David Blume: "Alcohol can be a Gas" either video or book and you will see corn is not the best, more like the worst crop to use for ethanol production. He also goes over how our farmers can grow crops of all varieties cheaper and with less chemicals/greener/healthier.
Chip, hope I did not offend, not my intention, if I did then I apologize whole heartedly!
