Ethanol vs. Your Engine

[CIP57_imp]

LOL, I agree. We get what we get and don't have a lot of choice in the matter. From what I have gotten out of this thread is that Honda approves 10%, but does that make 10% okay ? I think for cars that get used every day its not so bad, but motorcycles don't get the use that cars do. As I understand ethanol attracts moisture, the moisture condensates and that's not good for any metal. Should us low-mileage users be adding something to every tank on fill up to compensate ?

I use Marine Stabil once a month in the summer. I use recommended amount in the summer and dbl up in the winter.

[DGShannon_imp]

Ok, a couple of points. The title of this thread is ethanol vs your engine. Up to 10% ethanol is approved for use in my motorcycle's engine. It's right there in black and white in my owners manual. If the government would mandate 20% ethanol, I would not put it in my motorcycle. It is not approved for that. It also says that right there in black and white in my owners manual. I'm pretty sure if I went out to my motorcycle right now, fired it up on the gas thats in the tank, and rode off I would run out of gas and be pushing before finding a station that carried gas without ethanol. Even if I could find it here, what chance would I have making it from Ohio all the way to North Carolina for the rally without running out of gas before finding a station that served gas without ethanol? I rode out to California last year and don't believe I stopped at a single station serving straight gas out or back. What are the chances that the government is going to back pedal, eliminate ethanol and go back to straight gas? ZERO! Absolutely zero. So like it, hate it, ambivalent about it, either way we are stuck with it. So why would I spend one nano second of my life worrying about it?

What's that saying? Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference?

On this, I would have to disagree. "ZERO" chance only comes with ZERO fight. It may well fail, but there is always some chance, as long as we the people stay in the battle. Many would have said that there was ZERO chance that legalized marijuana or gay marriage would ever come about, but look where that is headed. There are ongoing efforts by republican and democrat, in multiple states, trying to reel in methanol, even if only to arrest it at 10%, until folks better understand the fiasco we are headed for. Hopefully, eventually, and with enough public resistance, it just might change.

You said "If the government would mandate 20% ethanol, I would not put it in my motorcycle." What would you put in it then? If you can't locate a gas station today without 10% (just as I can't) what are you planning to do when you can't locate one with less than 20%?

You might be correct in predicting that "straight gas" won't return. But, fighting to hold on to the widespread availability of 10% (not sent through blender pumps that cannot distribute small quantities of 10% for motorcycles, gas cans, etc.) so I can continue to ride my CB, and other motorcycles not designed for it, is very much worth spending a nano second of my life worrying about.

[Scoobynut_imp]

It looks like pressure works sometimes. From Agweb.com Headline: "EPA Succumbs to Pressure to Reduce Ethanol Mandate." This was from the end of 2013. Funny enough, that's about when all of our local gas stations started getting pure gas at their pumps, rather than the one or two stations prior. I'm not sure why you folks in other states haven't felt it like that yet -- maybe a stronger corn lobby in your state?

"Critics who have been taking shots at the national ethanol mandate finally got their way this month when the federal government reduced the amount of ethanol that gasoline producers must purchase next year.

The EPA proposal to reduce the biofuels mandate by 2.94 billion gallons in 2014 drew howls of protest from agricultural groups that accused the government of giving in to big oil interests. Opponents of the mandate, on the other hand, complained that it didn’t go far enough to reduce ethanol consumption. No one, it appears, was happy."

I wouldn't say no one was happy. I was happy as he**!

[fiscy_imp]

Ok, a couple of points. The title of this thread is ethanol vs your engine. Up to 10% ethanol is approved for use in my motorcycle's engine. It's right there in black and white in my owners manual. If the government would mandate 20% ethanol, I would not put it in my motorcycle. It is not approved for that. It also says that right there in black and white in my owners manual. I'm pretty sure if I went out to my motorcycle right now, fired it up on the gas thats in the tank, and rode off I would run out of gas and be pushing before finding a station that carried gas without ethanol. Even if I could find it here, what chance would I have making it from Ohio all the way to North Carolina for the rally without running out of gas before finding a station that served gas without ethanol? I rode out to California last year and don't believe I stopped at a single station serving straight gas out or back. What are the chances that the government is going to back pedal, eliminate ethanol and go back to straight gas? ZERO! Absolutely zero. So like it, hate it, ambivalent about it, either way we are stuck with it. So why would I spend one nano second of my life worrying about it?

What's that saying? Give me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference?

On this, I would have to disagree. "ZERO" chance only comes with ZERO fight. It may well fail, but there is always some chance, as long as we the people stay in the battle. Many would have said that there was ZERO chance that legalized marijuana or gay marriage would ever come about, but look where that is headed. There are ongoing efforts by republican and democrat, in multiple states, trying to reel in methanol, even if only to arrest it at 10%, until folks better understand the fiasco we are headed for. Hopefully, eventually, and with enough public resistance, it just might change.

You said "If the government would mandate 20% ethanol, I would not put it in my motorcycle." What would you put in it then? If you can't locate a gas station today without 10% (just as I can't) what are you planning to do when you can't locate one with less than 20%?

You might be correct in predicting that "straight gas" won't return. But, fighting to hold on to the widespread availability of 10% (not sent through blender pumps that cannot distribute small quantities of 10% for motorcycles, gas cans, etc.) so I can continue to ride my CB, and other motorcycles not designed for it, is very much worth spending a nano second of my life worrying about.

On this, I would have to disagree. "ZERO" chance only comes with ZERO fight. It may well fail, but there is always some chance, as long as we the people stay in the battle. Many would have said that there was ZERO chance that legalized marijuana or gay marriage would ever come about, but look where that is headed. There are ongoing efforts by republican and democrat, in multiple states, trying to reel in methanol, even if only to arrest it at 10%, until folks better understand the fiasco we are headed for. Hopefully, eventually, and with enough public resistance, it just might change.

You said "If the government would mandate 20% ethanol, I would not put it in my motorcycle." What would you put in it then? If you can't locate a gas station today without 10% (just as I can't) what are you planning to do when you can't locate one with less than 20%?

You might be correct in predicting that "straight gas" won't return. But, fighting to hold on to the widespread availability of 10% (not sent through blender pumps that cannot distribute small quantities of 10% for motorcycles, gas cans, etc.) so I can continue to ride my CB, and other motorcycles not designed for it, is very much worth spending a nano second of my life worrying about.
Try this site to locate pure gas
http://pure-gas.org/

[Cormanus]

So, at the risk of igniting WW3, what is the ethanol mandate really about: emissions or appeasing the US corn lobby?

[fiscy_imp]

So, at the risk of igniting WW3, what is the ethanol mandate really about: emissions or appeasing the US corn lobby?

EVERYTHING that happens in the US is political and driven by money....but that is another thread in another forum.

[the Ferret]

So, at the risk of igniting WW3, what is the ethanol mandate really about: emissions or appeasing the US corn lobby?

EVERYTHING that happens in the US is political and driven by money....but that is another thread in another forum.

EVERYTHING that happens in the US is political and driven by money....but that is another thread in another forum.
Yes please.... I will not let this turn into a political rant. If it heads that way, I will lock it up.

[ride4now_imp]

Wow... I hate to weigh in here...but why not? I'll keep it clean and a-political. In Georgia many of the larger stations are now selling regular, non-ethanol gas. If I remember correctly, it's about .50 more per gallon than regular ethanol blended fuel. In Florida, I have'nt noticed it being sold anywhere yet. I've had one fuel related problem ever and that's after I had my KLR for about 6 months. The carburetor gummed up which kept the bike from running right and I had to take it back to the dealer to get it cleaned. They blamed it on the heat in Florida and my 'lack of use'. I blamed it on the fact that it was a 'left-over' and that the carb problems started when they had it in the back. They said it was stored 'dry' but who knows. Since I moved the bike to Georgia, I've had no problems. And that was 4 years ago. I keep Stabil marine formula in all of my bikes and my boat and have yet to have another issue. For now, in my opinion, it's a waste of time worrying about it. If they go to a higher level of Ethanol, then I'll worry, gripe, complain, etc... but not before.

[twiin640_imp]

I'm a big fan of getting off of foreign oil and also breaking the oil monopoly that's existed in this country for the last 100 years. To that end I've been doing much research on alternative fuels and particularly ethanol. The country of Brazil is currently almost completely if not 100% free of the foreign oil dilemma because of their extensive use of ethanol. I have found lots of information to prove that ethanol is completely safe for almost every vehicle made since the late 90's.

With my current mix ratio, I currently run approx. 42% ethanol in one of my vehicles. Worked out that way the last tank because I simply filled it half and half with E85 and gasoline. I can tell you after running it for approx 300 miles that there have been no ill effects. The engine actually runs smoother and cooler.

I also have to address the mpg topic. If ethanol is burned in an engine optimized for gasoline, which all of our engines are, it's not logical to expect it to get the same results as a gallon of gasoline as far as mpg. But if an engine that normally burns gasoline is optimized to burn ethanol, many studies have shown that the mpg increases.

The last item to mention is that there have been no documented cases that ethanol has harmed any engine or parts from it's use. Much of that confusion has come from methanol which can cause problems to gasoline engines. Almost every vehicle manufactured in this country since 1990 is ethanol friendly.

Alternative fuels won't be going away. The Clean Air Act of 1970 will make sure of that. It's interesting reading if anyone gets the time to check it out. I'm not trying to start a heated debate here or anything like that. I'm just a very concerned citizen who wants to break free of foreign oil and the oil monopoly and I'm doing what I can to get there.

[ChipBeck_imp]

I'm a big fan of getting off of foreign oil and also breaking the oil monopoly that's existed in this country for the last 100 years. To that end I've been doing much research on alternative fuels and particularly ethanol. The country of Brazil is currently almost completely if not 100% free of the foreign oil dilemma because of their extensive use of ethanol. I have found lots of information to prove that ethanol is completely safe for almost every vehicle made since the late 90's.

With my current mix ratio, I currently run approx. 42% ethanol in one of my vehicles. Worked out that way the last tank because I simply filled it half and half with E85 and gasoline. I can tell you after running it for approx 300 miles that there have been no ill effects. The engine actually runs smoother and cooler.

I also have to address the mpg topic. If ethanol is burned in an engine optimized for gasoline, which all of our engines are, it's not logical to expect it to get the same results as a gallon of gasoline as far as mpg. But if an engine that normally burns gasoline is optimized to burn ethanol, many studies have shown that the mpg increases.

The last item to mention is that there have been no documented cases that ethanol has harmed any engine or parts from it's use. Much of that confusion has come from methanol which can cause problems to gasoline engines. Almost every vehicle manufactured in this country since 1990 is ethanol friendly.

Alternative fuels won't be going away. The Clean Air Act of 1970 will make sure of that. It's interesting reading if anyone gets the time to check it out. I'm not trying to start a heated debate here or anything like that. I'm just a very concerned citizen who wants to break free of foreign oil and the oil monopoly and I'm doing what I can to get there.

Gentlemen,

The above is so rife with unquestionable errors that a few must be pointed out. First, I have been a new car dealer for GM, KIA, Lotus, and GMC Trucks for over a quarter of a century. Next, as a multi location Chevron dealer today and one of the largest retailers of E-85 in Arizona I am qualified to speak here.

1. The United States is oil independent today and thanks to the fracking revolution we are a net exporter of oil.

2. A gallon of Ethanol only contains 65% as much energy as a gallon of gasoline. That's not an opinion, that's a fact. Many GM and Ford vehicles are Flex Fuel (including my new 2015 F-150) and the vehicle can determine the % of Ethanol up to 85% and adjust engine settings to run properly on it. None of them get "better mileage", none of them get the same mileage, every one of them get about 30% poorer mileage. My F-150 does worse than that on E-85.

3. Ethanol is not safe to use in almost every vehicle made since the 1990's unless you are talking about E-10 (10% ethanol). E-85 isn't even safe for regular gas pumps let alone non-Flex Fuel cars and trucks. E-85 is so corrosive that I had to buy special tanks with all stainless steel motors, lines, and sensors. The pumps and nozzles on my E-85 pumps are much more expensive than my gas pumps because everything needs to be stainless. Non Flex Fuel cars won't run properly, if they run at all, on E-85. It will void your warranty and rust your fuel system components.

4. My regular gas tanks have water sensors to tell me if water is collecting on the bottom. There are no water sensors in my E-85 tanks because Ethanol soaks up water like a sponge. If water ever gets in it gets pumped into peoples cars diluted into the fuel.

5. You claim that "many studies have shown that the mpg increases". I do this for a living and I haven't seen one study from any credible source that claims better mileage from Ethanol which contains 1/3 less energy per gallon. Please quote a source.

6. "The last item to mention is that there have been no documented cases that ethanol has harmed any engine or parts from it's use." This leaves me incredulous. Not one documented case?!?!? At least once a month I have a customer that is not paying attention fill up with E-85 in a non Flex Fuel car and drive away. They call furious when their car stops running and the typical cost to tow the car, drain the tank, clean out the fuel lines and get them back on the road is about $500. Let that E-85 sit in the car for a month and the cost to repair the rusted components can run into the thousands. Cars, trucks, boats, motorcycles, and all manner of power equipment numbering in the millions have been damaged by Ethanol. A new Dressor-Wayne gas pump costs about $15,000.00. If you pump E-85 with it the warranty is voided immediately. In order to pump E-85 I have to buy the $20,000 model with stainless guts.

7. So why do I sell E-85? The Maracopa County Board of Supervisors makes E-85 use mandatory for all taxi cabs servicing the Phoenix airport and my station is right by the airport. The cab drivers hate it even though it costs 20-25% less than gasoline because they are getting 30% less mileage in their flex fuel Chevrolet's. They cuss about it all the time but they are forced to use it so I sell it.

8. It takes over 100 gallons of water and almost a gallon of high energy diesel (to farm and transport the corn), tons of fertilizer and farmland, and more to produce one gallon of low energy Ethanol. Great for farmers, bad for everybody else.

9. Finally, "the oil monopoly that's existed in this country for the last 100 years" is quite a statement. Exxon-Mobil is the largest oil company in the U.S. and is the largest independent (non-government owned) oil company in the world. They control less than 3% of the world oil market. Chevron is #2 and they control less than 2% of the world market. That's quite a monopoly. Exxon is dwarfed by the state owned oil companies and is the 14th largest oil company globally. There are over 100 oil companies competing in the U.S. alone today. Monopoly? Seriously?? In the 1960's the telephone company was a monopoly. Exxon-Mobil doesn't command squat with their 3% market share.

If Ethanol made any sense people wouldn't need to be forced to buy it. All the best.

Chip Beck
Owner/Operator
Team CB Petroleum Properties