The CB1100 Community Forum

So, is ABS good or bad for motorcycling? 😈 sorry, just couldn't pass up the chance to keep this wonderful post going!

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Heaven knows, Retsel. Like oil, it is surely important to the survival of motorcycle forums.

ABS will save ones a$$ in a panic stop. Without, it's easy to lock up the front wheel and go down immediately. i've been very happy to have it on the CB and the XSR.

(11-17-2016, 09:43 AM)Retsel_imp Wrote: [ -> ]So, is ABS good or bad for motorcycling? 😈 sorry, just couldn't pass up the chance to keep this wonderful post going!

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YES ... Or is it NO? I'm confused

(11-17-2016, 12:50 PM)The ferret_imp Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-17-2016, 09:43 AM)Retsel_imp Wrote: [ -> ]So, is ABS good or bad for motorcycling? 😈 sorry, just couldn't pass up the chance to keep this wonderful post going!

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YES ... Or is it NO? I'm confused

YES ... Or is it NO? I'm confused Seems we all are!

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(11-17-2016, 09:14 AM)Cormanus_imp Wrote: [ -> ]Reach for the popcorn, popgun. That's not it. Not for the moment anyway.

First, I'm glad you gentlemen have let off steam with a ride. I haven't had a chance to do that yet.

Secondly, Ulvetanna, my sincere apologies for misrepresenting your position on ABS.

Thirdly, however, in my defence, I note that in all the indignant 10-euro responses you've posted, you never once answered my question—namely, what was your point? To be explicit: why did you make the post in the way you did? Why didn't you include a statement that it was in support of your view that ABS is not the be-all and end-all of braking? A statement with which most of us would, I suspect, agree. Instead it appeared to me—and indeed it continues to appear so—that you 'trailed your coat': offering a statement you knew or hoped would provoke precisely the response it got. If I'm wrong about that, I apologise again, but I'd ask that you accept some responsibility for how your communication was received.

Finally, you say "It just seems to me that, as both of you are moderators, you all could be a bit more moderate and actually either recall my position on ABS (which I've posted several times) or do a quick search to make sure you are not "standing on your foot." (I say this in all good humor)". With equal good humour and with respect as well: it's a fair cop; I did shoot myself in the foot. But, fair go. The Ferret and I read pretty much every post on this forum. My memory is not what it used to be and I don't remember every position put by every member on every issue. I don't have time meticulously to research every statement made by every member on every post. I'm simply not going to. If it's a job requirement, I'm outta here.

You have strong opinions which you express extensively and, if I may say so, with plenty of 10-Euro words. Good for you. You're entitled both to the words and the opinions. Heaven knows, I even respect many of the latter. I certainly respect your right to hold them. I'd ask that you offer reciprocal respect.

Of course...look, all I did was to post verbatim the disclaimer Suzuki put up on its website. I really never thought it would create a series of posts which, to put it politely, attempted to discern MY exact position on ABS.

I just think we've got to get some discussion and education going about all these electronic aids, and what they can and can't do for us, and how they work. There was nothing sinister in my intention, no desire to raise up a dust storm with the moderators weighing in, or anything of that nature.

Another thing I have to say, is that while I was on the ZX-10R forum, many of us raced and did track days, or both, whereas here on this forum, I seem to be the only really active member who has that kind of background. Obviously the CB1100 does not really attract that kind of rider but some few of us really do like the concept. I've mentioned [url=http://www.cycleworld.com/authors/nick-ienatsch]Nick Ienatsch many times; I will go ahead and say I do know him fairly well, have worked with him on occasion, and he and I share a very similar opinion of motorcycling. We love all kinds of bikes, racebikes to standards, vintage to modern. His message is also the same as mine, you can never stop learning and should never get complacent. We just had a new CB1100 owner go down today. If I, or you, or Nick, or anyone can help someone save his bacon with a riding tip or bit of information, to me, that's worth it.

We've got over 3,000 riders viewing this forum and probably less than one percent of those posting regularly, but a lot of them read it. So yes, I use this forum as a way to get out what I know to be good and accurate information about motorcycle riding techniques and technology. There can never be enough of that.

I've always gotten a kick out of the ten-dollar word quote from Hemingway; in truth, I'm an adherent of Herbert Spencer when it comes to writing but I can mix it up when I need to.

I'm not sure this [url=http://motorbikewriter.com/abs-safe-officials-believe/]article in Motorbikewriter.com adds much to the discussion other than that, for some at least, the jury is still out in Australia.

Looks like ABS will be mandated in Europe from April 2017 for bikes 125cc and above.

(11-21-2016, 05:19 PM)Cormanus_imp Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure this [url=http://motorbikewriter.com/abs-safe-officials-believe/]article in Motorbikewriter.com adds much to the discussion other than that, for some at least, the jury is still out in Australia.

Looks like ABS will be mandated in Europe from April 2017 for bikes 125cc and above.

That's a great link. My two favorite comments:

ABS or not, proper braking technique will still reduce your stopping distance. Poor technique with ABS will result in a longer stop than good technique with or without ABS.

And until they get it right for unsealed surfaces, of which we have a lot in Oz, its dangerous, increasing stopping distances. My XT1200Z came with unswitchable ABS. After a few rides on gravel roads, and a few steepish fire trails I searched the net for a an off fix which fortunately wasn’t too hard.
I find all this hysteria about ABS being unsafe or not needed to be ridiculous.

ABS does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL until the rider fails and locks up the brakes in an emergency. At that point, it may help to save your life. If you are so truly gifted that you can brake on the limit and not panic when some clown pulls out right in front of you and your life is in danger, just turn the ABS off.

But everything works backwards in Australia, due to the Coriolis effect, no?
I just have to also post this comment; using the rear to get the back end to step and cause a direction change is, naturally, a technique learned in the dirt. I used that on the racetrack once, a guy crashed and fell off right in front of me and I had to kick the back end out a few times to skew my line, barely missed his feet as he was sliding along the pavement. I went onto the track and noted several skid marks from the rear tire after the fact.

Being the Old Grumpy Bastard that I am, I can still however remember the front brakes of many a bike, either totally lethal or barely rated as retarders. One really did learn to ride around the bike, on one such machine the front brakes if you could call them that, needed a gorilla like full hand squeeze, to just achieve a slight slowing, however the rear brake was brilliant, and one very quickly learnt to steer the machine out of trouble by locking up the rear, and taking option 2 escape point in a totally different direction and then get on the gas hard, saved my butt so, many times.

Here's another vid from MCN using an experienced street rider, a professional motorcycle racer and a full time motorcycle tester

They tested a 1000 Honda with and without ABS on a damp track, straight line panic stop from 70 mph (or may have been KPH I don't know lol).

The motorcycle racer always stopped the quickest in both tests
the professional tester always stopped second quickest in both tests
the experienced street rider always took the longest to stop in both tests

however every rider always stopped in a shorter distance with the ABS equipped bike vs the non ABS equipped bike, (even the professional racer)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X6kO6ltk3a0

ok just broke it down

John street rider 301 ft w/o abs .... 246 ft with abs
Reese pro mc racer 193 ft w/o ABS .... 137 ft with ABS
Bruce pro tester 216 ft w/o ABS .... 200 ft with ABS

(11-22-2016, 02:17 AM)Ulvetanna_imp Wrote: [ -> ]

(11-21-2016, 05:19 PM)Cormanus_imp Wrote: [ -> ]I'm not sure this [url=http://motorbikewriter.com/abs-safe-officials-believe/]article in Motorbikewriter.com adds much to the discussion other than that, for some at least, the jury is still out in Australia.

Looks like ABS will be mandated in Europe from April 2017 for bikes 125cc and above.

That's a great link. My two favorite comments:

ABS or not, proper braking technique will still reduce your stopping distance. Poor technique with ABS will result in a longer stop than good technique with or without ABS.

And until they get it right for unsealed surfaces, of which we have a lot in Oz, its dangerous, increasing stopping distances. My XT1200Z came with unswitchable ABS. After a few rides on gravel roads, and a few steepish fire trails I searched the net for a an off fix which fortunately wasn’t too hard.
I find all this hysteria about ABS being unsafe or not needed to be ridiculous.

ABS does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL until the rider fails and locks up the brakes in an emergency. At that point, it may help to save your life. If you are so truly gifted that you can brake on the limit and not panic when some clown pulls out right in front of you and your life is in danger, just turn the ABS off.

But everything works backwards in Australia, due to the Coriolis effect, no?
I just have to also post this comment; using the rear to get the back end to step and cause a direction change is, naturally, a technique learned in the dirt. I used that on the racetrack once, a guy crashed and fell off right in front of me and I had to kick the back end out a few times to skew my line, barely missed his feet as he was sliding along the pavement. I went onto the track and noted several skid marks from the rear tire after the fact.

Being the Old Grumpy Bastard that I am, I can still however remember the front brakes of many a bike, either totally lethal or barely rated as retarders. One really did learn to ride around the bike, on one such machine the front brakes if you could call them that, needed a gorilla like full hand squeeze, to just achieve a slight slowing, however the rear brake was brilliant, and one very quickly learnt to steer the machine out of trouble by locking up the rear, and taking option 2 escape point in a totally different direction and then get on the gas hard, saved my butt so, many times.

I don't thing that's correct.

ABS adds weight and cost to the new motorcycle, it is another complex automation system that ads many possible failure points to the braking system, it demands ongoing maintenance and it gives inexperienced riders a false sense of security.

It is a matter of cost vs. benefit ratio. I see too few benefits to justify the cost; someone else might well thing the benefits out weight the costs. The balance point between the cost and the benefit is a legitimate thing to discuss, but to claim there is no cost AT ALL is not a reasonable position.