How dealers lose the sale

[VLJ_imp]

emullick, I bought a '99 ZX-9R, brand new. Great bike in summer, not so much in winter. It had a serious problem with carb icing. I ended up giving it back to the dealer in exchange for a CBR600F4i, which proved to be a much better bike.

[the Ferret]

"During most of that ride I was having a great time, and I was definitely thinking, "This bike seriously rocks. It works perfectly. It sounds great. It's stable. The fueling and throttle response are dialed. The acceleration is insane. It's letting me go faster than I really ought to be going, and it can easily handle a whole lot more."

Up there on Skaggs Springs Rd, and Rockpile Rd, I was having a blast, and the bike really couldn't have been any better. More importantly, I knew it, too, and told myself this, right there inside my helmet. "This is all the bike you need, so stop already. Quit looking at other bikes. Quit thinking about other bikes. Be happy with what you have. This thing is absolutely killer, it sounds and feels wicked as heck, and the seating position doesn't hurt your jacked-up neck. It lets you do everything you like to do on a bike, and it's really good at the main thing you like to do on a bike, which is this stuff, right here, right now. It even gets pretty good fuel mileage (46 mpg, even on those sorts of rides), so just stop already!" VLJ

With that kind of comment I am amazed you are even thinking about anything else.

The CB1100 is so polar opposite of that, I can't imagine you being happy with a CB 1100 unless you are serious about backing it off a notch or two, because a CB is not going to do that for you. You will find it slow and heavy, and poor handling if you try and ride it like the XSR. You told me years ago you couldn't ride slow, no interest, you are not old and feeble yet. That the CB needed better suspension, less weight and 110-120 horsepower. Remember those conversations VLJ? What has changed?

I feel for you being torn the way you are, because to me it sounds like you have the right bike for you already.

[emullick_imp]

emullick, I bought a '99 ZX-9R, brand new. Great bike in summer, not so much in winter. It had a serious problem with carb icing. I ended up giving it back to the dealer in exchange for a CBR600F4i, which proved to be a much better bike.

You must be one hardy SOB, icing?? anything below 50 degrees keeps me off the motorcycles.

[Cormanus]

Ferret and VLJ, I was stuck by that post too.

But then there was this too:

Hey, VLJ. I was wondering about you the other day. What happened. I take it you are not the owner of a CB1100?

Nope, still not a CB1100 owner. A few months ago I made my local dealer an offer on their 2017 EX, and we ended up $800 apart. I've been checking back in every so often to see if the bike is still there. As of a week ago, it's still there. Same vin number.

"So when are you going to actually buy the thing? It obviously has your name on it. You keep coming to visit it, so when are you going to take it home?"

"Hey, I made you an offer."

"Yes, you did."

"Three months later, this thing is still sitting here, and now we're heading into winter. Your sales guy says he has my phone number."

"Yep, we have your info stored in our system."

That's where we're at.

The thing is, other players are starting to enter the picture: the new Yamaha Tracer 900 GT, the new CB1000R, and maybe even a couple of much cheaper options like the new Z900, the new Z650, and the updated-for-2018 MT-07.

I've tried to like the new Z900RS, and while I like it more now than I did when I first saw it, I still don't like it all that much. I'm just not that impressed with its design, and I don't like what I'm hearing about the snatchy throttle response. Considering the enormous price difference, I actually prefer the basic Z900, with its stronger motor and smoother fueling.

In terms of the T120 vs CB1100 debate, I've just about eliminated the T120. I can get good heated grips for the Honda, and I've never had electronic cruise-control on a bike, so I won't miss it. My legs are short enough that the CB's reduced legroom isn't much of an issue. I still love the sound and feel of the Triumph's motor, but I'm fairly convinced now that I would also like the sound and feel of the '17 EX's motor, which sounds different from the '14, plus it's a few ponies stronger. Otherwise, I finally came to the conclusion that I just desire the CB1100 more than I desire the T120. Whereas with the T120 I fear that the bloom would soon fall from the rose once the novelty wore off, the CB1100 feels like more of a long-term affair to me.

I did a 400-mile "race" ride a few days ago on my XSR900. I'd picked up a nail in my rear Q3, which sucks, because that tire only had about two thousand miles on it. So, after replacing it with a new Q3 Plus, I wanted to scrub it in and get rid of the chicken strips.

Thus, the "race" ride. I did the Lake Berryessa/Skaggs Springs route, which is almost completely devoid of traffic this time of year. I had these roads all to my lonesome, so I really went hard. In fact, I pushed harder than I ever had on the XSR900, wanting to test its (our) limits.

Also, I wanted to test the suspension again, since it becomes a bit harsh when pushed really hard over bad stutter bumps.

My conclusions were a mixed bag. First off, yes, the suspension is a bit harsh over those bad bumps, but I seriously doubt that any bike would remain plush and fully composed over such bumps when pushed as hard as I was pushing, unless we're talking very high-dollar Ohlins or Penske suspension. This realization got me to thinking about whether I want to sink another $2-3K in upgraded suspension to make the XSR "perfect," or should I just stop being an idiot and accept that it's plenty good enough as is, and why in the hell am I still pushing that hard anyway?

I decided, no, I'm not going to sink a ton of money into suspension for the XSR. It's just fine as it is, 95% of the time. That other 5%, well, I can just back off a bit there.

During most of that ride I was having a great time, and I was definitely thinking, "This bike seriously rocks. It works perfectly. It sounds great. It's stable. The fueling and throttle response are dialed. The acceleration is insane. It's letting me go faster than I really ought to be going, and it can easily handle a whole lot more."

Up there on Skaggs Springs Rd, and Rockpile Rd, I was having a blast, and the bike really couldn't have been any better. More importantly, I knew it, too, and told myself this, right there inside my helmet. "This is all the bike you need, so stop already. Quit looking at other bikes. Quit thinking about other bikes. Be happy with what you have. This thing is absolutely killer, it sounds and feels wicked as hell, and the seating position doesn't hurt your jacked-up neck. It lets you do everything you like to do on a bike, and it's really good at the main thing you like to do on a bike, which is this stuff, right here, right now. It even gets pretty good fuel mileage (46 mpg, even on those sorts of rides), so just stop already!"

Yep, and as soon as I arrived back home, I popped onto my computer to check out some more Z900 and CB1100 videos.

I don't even know what I think the Z900 will give me that this modded XSR won't. With the ECU reflashed to eliminate all restrictions and match my full Akropovic exhaust system, this bike makes 112.4 at the wheel on the dyno, which is about what a Z900 makes at the rear wheel. It makes about 61 ft.-lbs of torque, which is a bit less than the Z900, but it makes it lower in the powerband. Combined with its much lower overall weight, I'm sure my bike is every bit as fast as a Z900, while being (or at least feeling) even punchier down low. I'm sure my brakes are better, and the suspension is probably about equal.

So why do I still want a Z900? I guess I like its looks better, and maybe the overall sound/feel/character of the motor? I like that its seat height is much lower, and with the way it has you sitting in the bike rather than atop it, like the XSR, I'm sure it offers better wind protection. Also, that price. $8,799 for the ABS model. Yow.

Great, but why do I still look at the CB1100?

I think I'm coming to realize that no matter what I look at, no matter what I ride, nothing tugs at me as hard as the '17 CB1100 EX does. I'm fully aware of its limitations, and I know it would force me to alter not only my riding style but my actual rides—no point in going to my usual race roads anymore if the bike can't handle them—yet I can't escape the CB's pull on me, which surpasses all others.

I shouldn't still be doing what I do on my XSR900. I know this. Even though it's still fun to me, the feeling of exhilaration is always tempered now by a gnawing awareness that this is just plain stupid, which diminishes the fun factor.

More and more, I feel like I simply belong on the CB1100. That's my future. I thought the same thing regarding the T120, but my heart tells me that the Honda is more "me" than the slow-steering, low-revving, British Harley Sportster-equivalent Triumph could ever be.

So, yes, of the pure retros, it's the Honda for me. Now it comes down to this: pure retro, or a hard-bags equipped sport-tourer, like the Ninja 1000 or Tracer 900 GT. If the bare-bones Honda didn't cost as much as those other two—if it only cost as much as the similarly-spec'd Z900, for example—the CB1100 would be the no-brainer choice for me. However, because it does cost just as much as the much higher-spec Ninja 1000 and Tracer GT, well, the Honda becomes a much more difficult sell, particularly in comparison to the Tracer. Hard bags, heated grips, cruise control, traction control, full-color TFT display, center stand, adjustable wind protection, hand guards, adjustable seat height, more upright seating position, much greater legroom, much lower weight, remote preload-adjustable shock, fully adjustable suspension, far superior handling and braking, way more power, AND it's that killer Yamaha Triple?

Brain vs heart. The brain says the Yamaha leaves nothing to be desired. It ticks off every functional box. It's a Yamaha, so its reliability is on par with the Honda's, and the new one is no longer a bad-looking bike, nor is it overly tall, like the old one. And for all that, the heart says the Honda is the one. The Honda is pure. The Honda is why we love motorcycles in the first place. Sure, the Yamaha is faster, sportier, more comfortable, and probably more fun, yet it somehow has the feeling of being more of a two-wheeled conveyance, rather than something that stirs the soul. For all its sporting attributes, it's rather appliance-like.

The Honda is just different. It's the one true outlier. It obviously makes the least sense, while clearly being the most emotionally satisfying choice.

For me, it probably comes down to those two bikes. The Tracer GT won't be out until next summer, however, and the price has yet to be announced. If it pushes much above $12,999, I'd probably drop it from consideration.

When all is said and done, I suspect my next bike will be my original number one choice, a red CB1100 EX. For all the Tracer's welcome appointments and gadgets, I can add heated grips and attach my set of my soft bags to the Honda and not really miss anything else from the Yamaha, and there would be no worries of noisy turbulence from the Yamaha's windscreen.

I suspect that in the end the heart will win. It usually does, right?

And that's the problem for VLJ, isn't it? His discussion is an essay on the nature of love. He's fallen in love with the beauty of the CB1100 and he desires it above all others. Those who know him suspect he may never be able to escape his lust for speed and wonder whether the beauty of the CB1100 will survive familiarity. Will the lust stir every time a transformer-like sports bike hurtles past him?

At least it's a motorbike and not a wife which means he can probably have both his love and his lust!

Good luck, mate.

[VLJ_imp]

mickey, Cormanus, when I compare the CB1100 EX and the XSR900, it really comes down to love/lust vs speed. The XSR is so much better than CB1100 at everything speed-related: acceleration, top speed, rpm potential, quick revving, braking, ground clearance, tire grip (180 vs 140, and a much stickier compound), agility, handling capability, traction control. The CB1100 is so much better at subjective things that matter more to me now: pride of ownership, and simply loving what I have. It's also plusher, more relaxing, and probably a bit more comfortable overall. The XSR900 is the far superior tool, in most respects anyway, and I do like it, but I don't love it. It has a few styling elements that I don't really like. Also, if I'm looking at it strictly in terms of performance, yes, it stomps the CB1100, but there are other bikes that stomp the XSR, although there are few motors that can match the XSR's in the real world, particularly in anything as remotely as comfortable as my XSR is with the bar risers.

There are things about the XSR I will never love and always wish were different. With the CB, the only things with which I might find fault are those giant aluminum footguards, which somewhat intrude on my heels. Honestly, I see no functional purpose for those things, but at least they're not as intrusive as the footguards and even the exhaust pipes on many recent Ducatis, and the Ninja 1000. Oh, and I wish the engine cylinders were entirely silver, rather than the black/silver mix. Otherwise, there really isn't a single aesthetic detail on the CB that I would change. I would like the speed limiters in the higher gears removed, just on principle, but if the bike is as soft and heavy as everyone says it is then I really don't need it to be any faster, since any extra speed would probably prove unusable. So, because of its design brief, I'm fine with its relatively low hp/torque and overall lack of power.

Well, I think I'm fine with it, anyway. Never having ridden one, or anything else that slow in recent years, I'm only guessing that I'll be fine with it, based on what everyone says about it. I know it will do 100 mph, and it probably doesn't take all day to get there, and that's all I need now. Hopefully it doesn't require downshifting from top gear to blow by traffic. My XSR's insane acceleration in top gear is downright addictive.

Here are the things I really look forward to with the CB1100:

-The fueling. All I ever hear is the fueling on the '17 is like a set of well-tuned carbs. No snatchy throttle, no need to be careful with the throttle, mid-corner. The fueling on my XSR is really good, but I still need to be more careful with it mid-corner than I imagine I would with the CB1100.

-The instruments. I know this sounds lame, but I absolutely love the '17 CB's instruments. I'd prefer the twin clocks to have the green face of the '14 Deluxe clocks, but I'm okay with the black, and love the blue digital screens. I also love the layout of the info in the digital screen, and I really love the chrome.

-Love the symmetry of the matching brake/clutch reservoirs, of the dual horns, of the whole presentation of the headlight area.

-Love that headlight. Man, I love it.

-Love that brilliant red tank. I have always loved brightly colored bikes, and while my XSR is somewhat handsome and even a bit menacing, I want that beautiful, joyous red of the '17 EX.

-Along those same lines, I love the chrome fenders, shock springs, footguards, and the aluminum chainguard. So much high-quality eye candy. Pride of ownership. Pride of ownership. Pride of ownership.

-I love the sound of the '17 EX. I also love the sound of my piped XSR, but that stately, rumbly baritone of the stock '17 is a soundtrack I really want playing beneath me on a long ride.

-I want the high-quality bits and pieces that adorn every inch of the '17 EX. Everywhere I look on that bike, I find something that pleases me.

-No drive modes. Just one really good one. Perfect. Drive modes are an answer to a question no one with a bike with great fueling ever asked.

-I want that view from the saddle of the CB, with that gorgeous cockpit and illuminated retro turnsignals. That aspect of the CB1100 EX just pleases the crap outta me.

-I love the CB1100 EX's saddle design. I'm not a big fan of the RS's saddle, but the EX's and mickey's 14 Deluxe saddle looks just right. I'm also fairly convinced that at my weight I'll find it plenty comfortable.

-Regular 87-grade gas. No more required Premium 91.

-While many people complain that the EX only has a 4.4-gallon tank, that's still a lot larger than the 3.7-gallon tank on my XSR, and the CB gets better fuel mileage. I would imagine a 200-mile range is do-able, provided I'm not pushing too hard.

-The CB's tires last forever. It will be nice not to need to replace the rear tire every 4,000 miles.

-You know what else will be nice about those tires? Not feeling my usual stupid, ego-driven desire to scrub them to their very edges.

-Along those same lines, and this is a huge one, I look forward to slowing down and enjoying a more stress-free, competition-free style of riding. I don't want to keep testing myself every time I ride. Eventually that sort of riding, that level of pushing myself, is going to end badly, and I need to stop. The CB1100 is my ticket to the next, and probably final, stage of my riding life.

-I love Honda. It's my favorite brand, and I'm happiest when I own a Honda. No Honda has ever failed me, car or motorcycle, and the majority of my favorite bikes I've owned have been Hondas. Of all my bikes, I've put the most miles on Hondas. I hold onto them longer.

-I fully expect a '17 CB1100 EX to be dead-nuts dependable, for a very long time. I have faith in my XSR, as well, but I simply don't feel its overall build quality is quite up to the level of the CB1100.

-With the XSR, I don't feel any desire to dote on it. I treat it like a farm animal, similar to the way mickey treats his '14 Deluxe. I wash it only when the bug splatter is so egregious that I can't handle it any longer. With the CB1100, I actually look forward to doting on all its special little details, even including those maddening spokes.

-As absolutely great as the XSR is, it still has a bit of a disposable feel to me. It's a really cool, somewhat stylish, exceedingly fast and competent craftsman's tool. (I feel the same regarding the Ninja 1000.) As long as I have the XSR, I will always have a roving eye. I will continue to check out every other bike that comes along, such as the Z900. The CB1100 is something very different. It's unique. The CB1100 has no direct peers, other than maybe the T120, which simply isn't as jewel-like as the CB1100 is to me. This big CB is the definitive Feel Good. It's truly a Life's Reward. It's a Forever Girl, and I really want a Forever Girl.

So, yes, as fantastic as the XSR is, particularly with all the changes I've made to it to help it suit me better, it still doesn't inspire the same sort of admiration, faith, and long-lasting desire as the CB1100 EX does for me. I like the XSR. I respect it, and I enjoy it. Big fun, and a faithful companion. I love the CB, though.

Big difference.

[Cormanus]

Apparently it’s not true love though as there’s a price gap.

[reinie_imp]

I'm currently an Indian owner and my local Indian dealer does allow demo rides. He's also a big four Japanese brands dealer and probably allows test rides on those as well.

[VLJ_imp]

Apparently it’s not true love though as there’s a price gap.

More than anything, it's a principles gap. Because of who owns it, I'm not about to overpay that dealership.

[the Ferret]

VLJ isn't it nice to type a response that doesn't disappear in thin air or go to moderation? lol

[VLJ_imp]

I hadn't thought about it, but yeah, you're right, what a breath of fresh air this place is, in terms of being able to conduct a conversation in a logical order.
By the way, mickey, for the record, I should come clean and admit that this forum and you specifically play large roles in why I want to own a CB1100. Even though we seem to have very different riding styles, I probably connect more with you and your way of thinking than with anyone else on the various boards. Rarely if ever do I find that I disagree with you regarding motorcycles, or motorcycling; the new CB1000R being one obvious exception. In the main, you value the same aspects of motorcycling that I do, so your unwavering support for the CB goes a long way with me.

Also, you're honest enough about the CB to tell me right out there for all the world to see that you think it won't satisfy me, so I know you're not sugarcoating everything.

Now, if only you could get the Dani vs Nicky thing sorted, we'd be like brothers from another mother.