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(09-28-2020, 09:35 AM)Frulk_imp Wrote: As the old joke goes... Harley is a clothing company that dabbles in motorcycles. I would point out that at my local Honda multi brand motorcycle dealer where I bought the CB 2/3rds of the floor is dedicated to atvs/UTVs. They’ve also branched out to selling trailers for those. I’m betting if the Honda dealer didn’t have atv/UTV and trailer sales to prop them up they too would be looking at some hard business decisions.
Harley.... tractor like... Honda...soulless...etc etc. We can keep this tribal silliness up all day.
Great post. This is a study in two very different ways to go about things and the impact that the ever dwindling popularity of motorcycling in this country has had on each approach.
Harley-Davidson made a conscious decision to reinvent themselves as a lifestyle company. They stuck firmly to their core product and marketed everything else associated with that product for all they were worth. This paid off incredibly well for them for quite some period of time and paved the way for their bloated pricing. That makes for quite the Catch-22 these days. Were they to slash their prices in half, there would likely be considerable damage done to the brand. It's one of those strange things about lifestyle products.
The ever-dwindling popularity of motorcycling is proving to be challenge enough for all motorcycle companies (the rise in sales since the beginning of the pandemic aside). But in the case of H-D, they are also facing the ever-dwindling base of hardcore H-D types. Sadly for H-D hat's more or less the only customer base they have to work with. In other words, I'm guessing that those "casual buyers" out there don't tend to set foot in a Harley-Davidson dealership. Even if the popularity of motorcycling weren't in the toilet, once all the boomers are gone H-D would likely still be struggling. It's a real double-whammy for them.
Honda on the other hand (or Honda Powersports to be more specific), focused on continued diversification of their product offerings. It would be interesting to see the sales figures as it seems that for many parts of the country motorcycles are no longer Honda Powersports' core product. For those areas it seems the core product would instead be the ATV's and SXS's based on what many here are saying. Such a move by Harley-Davidson would have likely been a turn-off for a very large portion of their customer base.
Followed up by this excellent post:
(09-28-2020, 01:46 PM)Frulk_imp Wrote: Oh the irony....being slow is by far the number one complaint lodged against the CB....and primitive not being far behind that. As in air cooled...retro dual shock rear suspension etc.
They fact that the CB is on or very near the bottom of 0-60 times for production bikes for its cc class (and let’s not mention bikes at even half its displacement) doesn’t really seem to bother most people on this site that ride it. I certainly don’t think about how slow and primitive it is when I’m in the saddle of the CB.
I’m betting a large part of the HD crowd thinks the same way about their rolling iron as we do about ours.
The irony is even deeper when you stop to consider the fact that the CB1100 was specifically created in order to compete directly with Harley Davidson's offerings in Japan (along with the large displacement offerings from Ducati). To those who can't help but poke fun at H-D at every possible opportunity, I sincerely would like to know were you in charge of keeping the company afloat, what moves would you make?
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I'll play along with Guth's question on what would we do to save Harley if we were in a position to effect change.
I have no special insight into the motorcycle market and no detailed market data/metrics of trends etc. to support my suggestions. I'm just a guy that likes to ride all types of motorcycles.
For better or worse Harley is wed to their V twin motors much like Guzzi is to their iconic V twin. So I wouldn't pursue in the short term any new from the ground up non V twin motor.
Harley's strength: I know there are always outliers but customer service, community outreach, strong dealer network with exceptionally well maintained sales floors and customer lounges, aftermarket support, brand related merchandise are a just a few things Harley is doing right.
For starters:
1) I'd send out a company wide e-mail stating that ANYONE who disparages the Sportster line in any fashion (Girls bike...entry level etc.) will be removed from the staff and any dealership who fails to abide by this policy will lose their franchise. I'd send people out undercover to check compliance.
2) Expand the Sportster line to include:
a. a throw back 'mild' chopper model with a slightly extended springer front end. I believe there's always a market for this style of bike in the Harley lineup. Provide a robust accessory option for the bike...Tall sissy bars....raised white letter tires....King/Queen seat etc. I see this particular niche as being weak throughout the bike market....
b. a lightened air cooled desert sled/scrambler model....probably in the 750/883cc range . I'd want it to come in around the 460 weight mark knowing that it would mostly be ridden on pavement...Harley is already behind the timeline to fully exploit their popularity.
c. Reengage with E. Buell and discuss the feasibility of bringing a water cooled 1200cc V twin Sportster sport bike into the line-up with a 3 year target date to have it in the showroom. Let Eric know that he will have control over the mechanical/technical side but the end product will NOT look like a Transformer or insect from ANY angle. Remind him of this on a daily basis if need be. Outsource the bodywork to an Italian design studio.
d. Start now at designing a lightweight water cooled version of the 'Dirt Glide' ATV bike. Maybe even can it and go smaller in mid stream. I just can't see the full size going toe to toe with the BMW/GS. The market has been begging for lightweight ATV bikes (and Yamaha, Royal Enfield, Guzzi are a few that have responded and seem to be selling well) for sometime and again, by the time Harley gets one on the market the boom will probably already be past. A shaft drive should be high up on the list for this bike.
e. Cull their cruiser line. It's too dominant a part of their overall line-up. Maybe have a classic version (chrome/leather etc.)..a stripped bagger version and the full monte open road two up faired option.
f. Not sure what I'd do with the CVO...I'd have to see sales numbers.
These comments are just off the cuff thinking while I drank 1.5 cups of coffee this morning and are subject to refinement. Good chance I'd run the company into the ground if even half of this was implemented.
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If I was in charge of Harley I would join up with a Milwaukee based scrap dealer.....
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(09-29-2020, 01:23 AM)Houtman_imp Wrote: If I was in charge of Harley I would join up with a Milwaukee based scrap dealer.....
.... or Stelco Hamilton in Ontario
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[url=https://advrider.com/detailed-drawings-of-harley-davidson-338r-emerge/]HD338
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H-D has many strong points, loyal fan base, marketing and merchandising.
What I don't like is their product line. I'd like to see development of a unit Big Twin with shorter stroke and counter-balancer(s) while existing Big Twin lines can continue, alongside new focus on a Sportster similar to Indian.
Indian has managed to blend a nostalgic brand and image with state of the art cruiser/power cruiser/flat track models targeted towards a younger audience.
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I'm down in North Carolina riding right now and there is nothing down here but Harleys. Seems like thousands of them. I made the comment more than once in the last couple of days, that it's hard to believe that Harley Davidson is in financial trouble.
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(09-29-2020, 03:50 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: I'm down in North Carolina riding right now and there is nothing down here but Harleys. Seems like thousands of them. I made the comment more than once in the last couple of days, that it's hard to believe that Harley Davidson is in financial trouble.
They may be everywhere, but if they've owned them for years, or bought them secondhand, then HD isn't making fresh money.
Same for us CB1100 owners who bought them used, or years ago. It's thanks, but what have you done for Honda lately?
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(09-29-2020, 04:53 AM)pekingduck_imp Wrote: (09-29-2020, 03:50 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: I'm down in North Carolina riding right now and there is nothing down here but Harleys. Seems like thousands of them. I made the comment more than once in the last couple of days, that it's hard to believe that Harley Davidson is in financial trouble.
They may be everywhere, but if they've owned them for years, or bought them secondhand, then HD isn't making fresh money.
Same for us CB1100 owners who bought them used, or years ago. It's thanks, but what have you done for Honda lately?
They may be everywhere, but if they've owned them for years, or bought them secondhand, then HD isn't making fresh money.
Yea that is something we have discussed with Harley riders down here. The ones we talked to admitted they bought their bikes used because new ones are too expensive, they havent changed much, and there are plenty of low mileage used ones around at good prices. They all are wearing tons of Harley branded gear. THey said the Harley Shop here by the Dragon doesnt even carry bikes, just clothing.
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(09-29-2020, 04:53 AM)pekingduck_imp Wrote: (09-29-2020, 03:50 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: I'm down in North Carolina riding right now and there is nothing down here but Harleys. Seems like thousands of them. I made the comment more than once in the last couple of days, that it's hard to believe that Harley Davidson is in financial trouble.
They may be everywhere, but if they've owned them for years, or bought them secondhand, then HD isn't making fresh money.
Same for us CB1100 owners who bought them used, or years ago. It's thanks, but what have you done for Honda lately?
I just spent 3 days in a town about 15 miles west of Milwaukee and while I saw a ton of HD's, they fit Peking's description. Not new. Even a friend who bought a new one last year (at least her 6-7th new HD) said it's probably the last new one she's going to buy. They've priced her out of the market.
I'm Milwaukee born and bred, but one of the first rhymes my dad taught me as a little kid was "Harley, Harley they're the best. Ride a mile, walk the rest." It wasn't until I was in my 40's that I took the "risk" and bought a used VROD. Loved it, but it's also one of the bikes the purists say wasn't really a Harley.
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