Quality - Honda vs. Kawa (and others ?)

[The Gecko_imp]

Read a few articles where different m/c "expert" and journalist claimed and reiterated that the famous Honda quality was no longer what it used to be.

It made me curious ... on a long winter day. Knowing what kind of problems are reported here on our forum, or should I say how few and little problems are reported, I looked into the U.K. forum for the Z 900 RS, after all a very popular machine and a big forum site.

In "general discussion" only, last few weeks alone, there is an endless amount of very nasty problems reported - on Kawas no older than 2-3-4 years. Often sensor failure, but also much simpler annoyances like gear switch mechanic, corrosion, "doesn't start", idle problems (like the earlier CB models), and many more.

I don't wonna rub it in with the wrong audience, but as little as my search may be statistically relevant, I did quickly get the feeling that Honda is still up on top. A quick look into a BMW forum and some Italian chicks .... seems to confirm it.

[Gone in 60]

Of the five Honda motorcycles I’ve owned, I can’t think of a mechanical fault. My CB1100 had a slight oil weep from the front right engine cover, but I gave it a glowering look of disapproval and the leak stopped (or I’m out of oil, haven’t checked it).

If you want some affirmation about Honda quality, spend some time on a Royal Enfield forum.

[Jonnyteabag_imp]

I own both the CB and Z900rs and agree that on the face of it your findings appear correct but here in the UK the CB sales bombed from day one and is no longer sold whilst the Kawa has been a runaway success.

In my observations the kawa is far more likely to be ruined by those "internet mechanics" who can't stop adding tat, bling, engine tuning maps and gadgets to their bikes thus adding to associated problems therein, (There is a very big accessory/Tat market available at present)
Whilst the amount of box standard CB's running round the UK and European Continent is probably the reason that no one complains about reliability problems.
Another reason may be that I suspect that Honda CB owners seem to be of an older demograph than the Z900rs guys.

In my ownership experience, my CB has got the engine fin corrosion that I didn't expect from an otherwise exellent Honda product,this could be due to the fact I did not buy my CB new and could be due to previous owners neglect.

My kawa that was purchased new has suffered no reliability or cosmetic issues what so ever since I bought her in July 2019...but I tend to keep all my bikes in mint condition, which is what irritates me whenever I look at the mild corrosion on the CB's fins

I think I'm not alone in noting that there is little in the way of accessory parts for my CB available outside of Japan, and the cost to us here in the UK is extremely expensive.

JT

[GoldOxide_imp]

[Motorcycle] Forums are notorious for its imbalance of posts of own problems with motorcycles. After all, what are forums mostly about? One might get bored for the otherwise reports of great behaviour of owner machines.

All my present and past Honda motorcycles have been excellent machines to own and all of them had no major problems that prevented me from riding. None.

The CB1100, CRF1000 and PCX150 have been the most reliable Honda motorcycles I have ever owned. Zero manufacturing and designs issues have stopped me from riding them in any temperature and weather situation.

I have left my CB1100 and CRF1000 under the sun/rain/bird crap all day, and overnight in rain countless times. I have never had switch gear problems. That is my experience. If you go to the Africa Twin Forum you will find owners who pamper their CRF1000/1100s and they get gear switch problems.

So how does one get a measure of Honda reliability? Keep in mind that problems are posted significantly more often then "no problems" on forums.

[Nachodaddy]

I have only had a few motorcycles, but have had problems with
a) 2013 CB1100 - fast idle, replaced ECU at 5,000 miles
b) 1995 Harley Sportster 1200 - rebuilt clutch at 20,000 miles.
Never had a problem with my 1981 Suzuki GS1100E which I rode for 24years and 24K miles
Never had a problem with my 1976 Kawasaki KZ750 vertical twin. Only rode for under two years and don't know how many miles on it, but rode it a lot.
More recently I had a 2009 BMW K1300GT, which I loved, but put very few miles on it and had no problems. Had a 2004 BMW R1150RT which I had no problems with. Rode both BMWs very few miles and got rid of them when I found out how expensive they are when any little thing goes wrong with them. and how much routine maintenance costs on them.
I like my CB1100, but they are not without problems.

[peterbaron]

Let's assume we are talking about the same motorcycle and problem...

For those who know how to use a wrench, know how to service or repair a fault, then this issue will never be a problem, and for others who take their bike to a workshop, they will certainly say that it was a big problem, especially if the repair was incorrectly done or diagnosed, overpaid and lasted longer.

Another aspect comes into play if you love or hate your bike.
IMHO the Japanese bikes are best built.

[GoldOxide_imp]

Many owners will argue relatively that the most reliable era of consumer production motorcycles was during the 1980s by Japanese manufacturers - barring lemon designs.

All my 1980s Japanese motorcycles gave me zero headaches.

Routine maintenance does not count as a problem, unless the engineering design made it painfully onerous and/or costly to perform the maintenance.

[17-CB-002]

What is "Quality" ?
The answer is different for everyone.
Quality can be touched & feel, invisible but trustworthy such as the engine starts every time or Quality can be a long lasting product.

Way back in the mid to late 80's the US government wanted to confirm whether it is true that the Japanese has better quality than the US products because even with higher Japanese car prices customers were buying Japanese cars like hot cakes even with the "Voluntary Restriction" by the Japanese producers.

The US gov. subsidize 3 professors from MIT to look into it and after 4 to 5 years of research through every OEM, visiting their plants and suppliers they concluded that the Japanese (lean production technique) were indeed number 1st and North America (Mass production technique) came in 2nd then third the European (Craftsmanship technique) by the Germans.

Also in their research, they concluded that amongst the Japanese OEM they have different level of quality with Toyota on top followed by Honda then Nissan.

If you can buy/rent this book "The Machine That Changed the World" , go for the 2nd edition as it did mentioned the OEM by name.
(ISBN 978-0-7432-9979-4) James Womack, Daniel Jones and Daniel Roos.

It is a very interesting reading as it discussed about different mentality/approach taken by each OEM when designing a car from ground up.

Note: In order for all Manufacturers to participate in the survey, MIT agreed that the name of the manufacturers were omitted in the report, however, in the 2nd edition the OEM were mentioned by name - I don't know why.

Very interesting reading.

[pdedse]

Prior to purchase: "oh yeah, that bike is rock solid"
After purchase: "oh yeah, they all do that"

[17-CB-002]

What is "Quality" ?
The answer is different for everyone.
Quality can be touched & feel, invisible but trustworthy such as the engine starts every time or Quality can be a long lasting product.

Way back in the mid to late 80's the US government wanted to confirm whether it is true that the Japanese has better quality than the US products because even with higher Japanese car prices customers were buying Japanese cars like hot cakes even with the "Voluntary Restriction" by the Japanese producers.

The US gov. subsidize 3 professors from MIT to look into it and after 4 to 5 years of research through every OEM, visiting their plants and suppliers they concluded that the Japanese (lean production technique) were indeed number 1st and North America (Mass production technique) came in 2nd then third the European (Craftsmanship technique) by the Germans.

Also in their research, they concluded that amongst the Japanese OEM they have different level of quality with Toyota on top followed by Honda then Nissan.

If you can buy/rent this book "The Machine That Changed the World" , go for the 2nd edition as it did mentioned the OEM by name.
(ISBN 978-0-7432-9979-4) James Womack, Daniel Jones and Daniel Roos.

It is a very interesting reading as it discussed about different mentality/approach taken by each OEM when designing a car from ground up.

Note: In order for all Manufacturers to participate in the survey, MIT agreed that the name of the manufacturers were omitted in the report, however, in the 2nd edition the OEM were mentioned by name - I don't know why.

Very interesting reading.