Interesting Old Triumph Ad Circa 1972 or so

[JustPassinThru_imp]

Interesting. I'd look up those models - and will, later - but it's late-night here; I've spent my hour of decompression after work and now it's time for rack-ops.

I'd hate do see a storied brand go - but I have a visceral hatred for Harley-Davidson. I'm not asking anyone to join me in it here - but there are many reasons, starting with the uncouth behavior of their customer base, to the loud (styling and muffling, both) cycles themselves; to the way they've promoted BRAND, not superiority of product.

In other venues, that's sometimes called "jingoism" or "chauvinism." In Milwaukee, it's called "marketing."

And in ANY business, when the brand is turned into a cult quite apart from the product - be it H-D or Oakley sunglasses or Levis jeans...excepting Levis, the fall is rapid and messy. And value to the consumer is nearly absent.

I don't necessarily expect you to agree. And I do plan to read up on those models...now that old Willie G has shuffled off to retirement, maybe someone can overhaul that company. But they're going to have to shift their focus before they get my attention.

[the Ferret]

If Harley goes, then so does Indian and Victory whose product lines and customer base mimics those of Harley Davidson. I think these mfgs have too much invested to just throw up their hands and stubbornly keep producing nothing but cruisers for a market that no longer exists. Harley adding liquid cooled and electric bikes to their line shows they can read the writing on the wall, as well as the liquid cooled scout from Indian.

You can hate Harley if you want but many companies, including all the Japanese companies, have made and continue to make their own forays into that lucrative market place pioneered by Harley Davidson. Harleys marketing plan has been nothing but genious.

[Elipten_imp]

Maybe that is the future for today's youth, video simulations riding, motorcycles, farkling motorcycles, hot ridding them and they'd driving on roads.




Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[JustPassinThru_imp]

If Harley goes, then so does Indian and Victory whose product lines and customer base mimics those of Harley Davidson. I think these mfgs have too much invested to just throw up their hands and stubbornly keep producing nothing but cruisers for a market that no longer exists. Harley adding liquid cooled and electric bikes to their line shows they can read the writing on the wall, as well as the liquid cooled scout from Indian.

You can hate Harley if you want but many companies, including all the Japanese companies, have made and continue to make their own forays into that lucrative market place pioneered by Harley Davidson. Harleys marketing plan has been nothing but genious.

True enough, in noting the changes. Although I'd posit that it's emissions equipment, and the need to have engine temperatures strictly controlled to narrow parameters, which is the impetus behind liquid cooling.

It's what killed the old VW Beetle in the Mexican market - the last significant market they had for it, not quite third-world but one of the last big ones for a basic car. But the air-cooled engine couldn't be reasonably made to comply even with more lax emissions standards.

Honda had to WORK to get the CB1100 engine out - and air cooling was a goal, not something that would naturally be. They had to go with "oil and air cooling" to use alternate methods of controlling operating temps.

As for the balance of the cruiser market: I think if someone is interested in the riding experience, not the brand identification, the Virago and Eliminator series in the past (and whatever has replaced them) offered the same format with superior quality and reliability. I know little about Victory bikes - not my cup of joe. Indian has been abused by operators who've tried to ape the Harley experience, with little success. Polaris has deep pockets; if they can get a product that can stand on its own merits, not on memories or image...they should do well.

I don't see Harley-style cruisers as the future, however. Those are in the past; and for riders with a memory of things past. Not comfortable...can't raise off the seat for rough spots; the seating position is hard on the spine. I think the future will be between sportbikes and BMW-style tourers...designed with comfort in mind. Something that goes between the Gold Wing and the RT.

For the rest of us who never were drawn to crotch rockets...I'm enjoying the UJM revival with the CB and others.

[Scoobynut_imp]

I don't have any negative feelings about Harley's bikes, but I do echo some of JustPassin's feelings about a lot of their clientele. I find the whole badazz, Ape-Hanger, Easy Rider, Sons of Anarchy wannabee thing just lame, tired and annoying. I'm not saying everyone who rides a Harley is narrow-minded about other bikes, but there are an awful lot of them who are. But to me the worst thing about the whole cruiser segment is that it is (still) such a large market segment in the U.S. that we miss out on a lot of more functional and interesting stuff that is offered elsewhere in the world, or, when something interesting is offered here it usually doesn't sell too well due to the dominance of the cruiser market. I think part of the problem is that most riders in the U.S. are just casual riders who don't even understand why you would want a seat height above 27 inches, or want enough ground clearance to lean your bike over more than 5 degrees. I think Harley has been so effective at marketing their bikes that most U.S. riders think that is just how a motorcycle looks, or ought to look -- like some anachronistic cruiser from the 1940s -- and don't think about how much modern componentry and design affect how fun a bike can be to RIDE. Again, for a lot of these people, riding is more a social event than an actual 'ride' event so to them the machine's dynamics are at best an afterthought. Thank goodness Honda saw fit to make their throwback CB1100 function like a modern motorcycle.

I know some of the guys on the forum also own Harleys and I'm not trying to offend you guys or your bikes at all. Heck, I even like some Harleys. I'm sure we could hang out and have a good time as you are obviously open-minded people who love all bikes no matter the brand. I feel the same way. It's just my analysis of the current market is all.

[ChipBeck_imp]

Gentlemen,

Whether or not that ad worked, I like it.

Chip

[JustPassinThru_imp]

Interesting. I'd look up those models - and will, later - but it's late-night here; I've spent my hour of decompression after work and now it's time for rack-ops.

I'd hate do see a storied brand go - but I have a visceral hatred for Harley-Davidson. I'm not asking anyone to join me in it here - but there are many reasons, starting with the uncouth behavior of their customer base, to the loud (styling and muffling, both) cycles themselves; to the way they've promoted BRAND, not superiority of product.

In other venues, that's sometimes called "jingoism" or "chauvinism." In Milwaukee, it's called "marketing."

And in ANY business, when the brand is turned into a cult quite apart from the product - be it H-D or Oakley sunglasses or Levis jeans...excepting Levis, the fall is rapid and messy. And value to the consumer is nearly absent.

I don't necessarily expect you to agree. And I do plan to read up on those models...now that old Willie G has shuffled off to retirement, maybe someone can overhaul that company. But they're going to have to shift their focus before they get my attention.

Just took a few minutes to look them up.

I was TOTALLY unaware of the Street lineup. Although a review panned the seat and ergonomics of the 750...it sounds like a good first effort, and something long overdue. The 500 looks like it has more human-friendly ergonomics, from the photo.

The Livewire is going to be a novelty - like electric vehicles will be, barring some sort of game-changing breakthrough in electrical storage. IMHO, of course; but so far they've proved themselves on golf courses and warehouses, and few other places.

We will see. Triumph, as this ties in to the OP, was either unwilling, unable or both, to pull out of its death spiral. H-D maybe more readily - they have a changing of the guard, with Davidson's retirement and the obvious changing demographics of their customers.

[JustJohn_imp]

Interesting. I'd look up those models - and will, later - but it's late-night here; I've spent my hour of decompression after work and now it's time for rack-ops.

I'd hate do see a storied brand go - but I have a visceral hatred for Harley-Davidson. I'm not asking anyone to join me in it here - but there are many reasons, starting with the uncouth behavior of their customer base, to the loud (styling and muffling, both) cycles themselves; to the way they've promoted BRAND, not superiority of product.

In other venues, that's sometimes called "jingoism" or "chauvinism." In Milwaukee, it's called "marketing."

And in ANY business, when the brand is turned into a cult quite apart from the product - be it H-D or Oakley sunglasses or Levis jeans...excepting Levis, the fall is rapid and messy. And value to the consumer is nearly absent.

I don't necessarily expect you to agree. And I do plan to read up on those models...now that old Willie G has shuffled off to retirement, maybe someone can overhaul that company. But they're going to have to shift their focus before they get my attention.

Just took a few minutes to look them up.

I was TOTALLY unaware of the Street lineup. Although a review panned the seat and ergonomics of the 750...it sounds like a good first effort, and something long overdue. The 500 looks like it has more human-friendly ergonomics, from the photo.

The Livewire is going to be a novelty - like electric vehicles will be, barring some sort of game-changing breakthrough in electrical storage. IMHO, of course; but so far they've proved themselves on golf courses and warehouses, and few other places.

We will see. Triumph, as this ties in to the OP, was either unwilling, unable or both, to pull out of its death spiral. H-D maybe more readily - they have a changing of the guard, with Davidson's retirement and the obvious changing demographics of their customers.

Just took a few minutes to look them up.

I was TOTALLY unaware of the Street lineup. Although a review panned the seat and ergonomics of the 750...it sounds like a good first effort, and something long overdue. The 500 looks like it has more human-friendly ergonomics, from the photo.

The Livewire is going to be a novelty - like electric vehicles will be, barring some sort of game-changing breakthrough in electrical storage. IMHO, of course; but so far they've proved themselves on golf courses and warehouses, and few other places.

We will see. Triumph, as this ties in to the OP, was either unwilling, unable or both, to pull out of its death spiral. H-D maybe more readily - they have a changing of the guard, with Davidson's retirement and the obvious changing demographics of their customers.
I can see your point. As an owner of 3 of these bikes currently, they are not for everyone. That being said, for years they have sold all they made. Occasionally one can find a leftover. Not sure I see them folding anytime soon. Is there a source for this information? They are trying new things and going after new markets, even if it is only new to them. I like Harley's. But I'm old school. But the old school that likes ALL bikes, no matter where they come from. To me a rider is a rider, the machine is secondary. The Honda CB1100 is on my radar, as is the Bonneville. And here's honesty to a fault: I ride with a lot of guys who "own" a Harley. Don't ride much, but have one. I also ride with guys who are Harley enthusiasts. That's my demo. I enjoy them, but also know some "pirates". Got no time for the theatrics of these guys. But we aren't all bad. Last summer I switched bikes with a friend who is a seasoned rider. Let him ride my Road King. I rode a BMW scooter. Can't remember what model it was. Ya know what? I had a blast! It was really fun, and fast. Who would have thought? Keep the mind open at all times. Works for me.

[Scoobynut_imp]

Well said, JustJohn.

[JustJohn_imp]

Well said, JustJohn.

Thanks. I'm not sure how a lot of riders came to dislike others because of what they ride. Not on my radar tho. And honestly, I'm a member of a few Harley sites. Its rare to see someone picking on Japanese or European bikes. And on the odd occasion someone does, we self-moderate and have NO problem explaining to the member the errors of his ways. I got no time for it. Your on a bike? Well we got something in common. Just my .02 cents. Ride safe guys.