Interesting Old Triumph Ad Circa 1972 or so

[Pterodactyl_imp]

Triumph was desperate.

At the time, Triumph had been part of the new British Leyland conglomerate - a collection of unprofitable vehicle manufacturers merged together at the behest of the ruling Labour Party government. With untenable costs; and nationalized by 1975.

Morale was in the dumper. Quality control was an alien concept at any of the BL plants. While Honda and other Japanese companies were setting new heights of manufacturing quality.

MAYBE Triumph had a superior design. I had never looked closely at one. They certainly had the tradition.

It wasn't enough. The Honda was, hands down, the superior product. And the memory of Triumph in its nadir, still stays - I wouldn't trust a Bonneville, even though, by style and design, it appeals to me.

JustPassin, I didn't realize they were under the British Leyland umbrella at the time. That explains a lot. It's sad really, I liked British vehicles back in the day -- I lived the first 8 years of my life in England as an Air Force brat -- and loved many of their cars. It's just too bad they didn't invest anything to compete with modern products.

JustPassin, I didn't realize they were under the British Leyland umbrella at the time. That explains a lot. It's sad really, I liked British vehicles back in the day -- I lived the first 8 years of my life in England as an Air Force brat -- and loved many of their cars. It's just too bad they didn't invest anything to compete with modern products.
JustPassin, your history lesson is entertaining, but wrong. In Jan 1936 The Triumph Motor Company, prior to 1934 the Triumph Engineering Company, was split into two separate and independent companies. The Triumph Motorcycle (Engineering) Company and the Triumph Motor Company.

In 1960 The Triumph Motor Company, now known as Standard Triumph, came under the wing of Leyland Motors and after further mergers in 1969 became a part of British Leyland.

The Triumph Motorcycle Company was never associated, in any manner, with British Leyland. It is interesting to note that in 1950 the U.S. based Triumph Corporation was established in Maryland and more Triumph motorcycles were sold in the U.S. than all other countries combined. In 1951 Harley Davidson, whose products at that time were more suitable for boat anchors than transportation, complained to the Tariff Commision and demanded a 40% tarrif on Triumph motorcycles. The H-D submission failed and Triumph motorcycles, popularised by such as Brando and McQueen, and success in dirt track, speed trials and road racing, were selling well in the U.S. until swept away by the Japanese Tsunami.

Why were Japanese motorcycles so successful while the mainstream of the British motorcycle industry lapsed into decline and collapse? Easily answered and mirrored in other industries (and other countries) but a discussion for another place.

The history of Triumph in the UK is complex and entwined with the BSA, Norton, Villiers and Ariel companies. 1983 saw the demise of Triumph. Attempts at resurrection were attempted (think Bloor, Racing Spares, Hinkley etc). At NO stage was BL involved.

Cheers

[Scoobynut_imp]

Pterodactyl, so it was just Triumph automobiles that were merged into British Leyland? Didn't Triumph motorcycle merge with BSA -- and possibly others -- at one point as they circled the wagons under the Japanese onslaught?

[Pterodactyl_imp]

Pterodactyl, so it was just Triumph automobiles that were merged into British Leyland? Didn't Triumph motorcycle merge with BSA -- and possibly others -- at one point as they circled the wagons under the Japanese onslaught?

Yes and yes. An interesting time. Triumph (motorcycles) was taken over/merged with BSA, Norton Villers and Arial at one time or another.

Cheers

[flynrider]

That ad is insane. I mean you'd have to be certifiable to put the Triumph next to the CB and expect people would gravitate towards the Triumph. The Triumph is a great looking bike, but come on!!

I owned (or should I say 'repaired) a Triumph for about 8 months in my younger days. I bought it when I was merely an Enthusiast. Anyone who was really an "expert" would have known that the quality of the CB was in a different universe.

[the Ferret]

The Triumph handled superbly compared to the Honda, and they had similar top speeds however the Honda had a 5 speed box and the Trident a 4 speed box, but more importantly the Honda had an electric started which Triumph didn't get until 1975... Way too late to save Triumph.

BTW little known, by 1973 Triumph had a 1000cc 4 cyl in prototype form called the Quadrant ( actually quite an attractive motorcycle) but it never made it to production.

[flynrider]

The Triumph handled superbly compared to the Honda, and they had similar top speeds however the Honda had a 5 speed box and the Trident a 4 speed box, but more importantly the Honda had an electric started which Triumph didn't get until 1975... Way too late to save Triumph.

BTW little known, by 1973 Triumph had a 1000cc 4 cyl in prototype form called the Quadrant ( actually quite an attractive motorcycle) but it never made it to production.

A Brit UJM (or UBM?). Looks like it would have competed directly with the Kaw Z-1. I think that would have solved the modernization issue, but I have a feeling that the quality control issues would have still killed them.

[Pterodactyl_imp]

The Triumph handled superbly compared to the Honda, and they had similar top speeds however the Honda had a 5 speed box and the Trident a 4 speed box, but more importantly the Honda had an electric started which Triumph didn't get until 1975... Way too late to save Triumph.

BTW little known, by 1973 Triumph had a 1000cc 4 cyl in prototype form called the Quadrant ( actually quite an attractive motorcycle) but it never made it to production.

True, the Triumph frame was more than adequate. But a Triumph engine in the Norton featherbed frame gave rise to the legendary Triton. A formidable racer and, in some guises, one of the most evocative looking motorcycles of all time. A great performer at the TT.

This conversation is interesting to me as I grew up with British motorcycles and have owned, and still own, a '61 Bonneville. The last of the pre-unit machines. Sky-blue on silver. My first experience of Japanese machines was a '93 Blade. Have always favoured Honda over other contemporary manufacturers since then.

Cheers

[Pterodactyl_imp]

Just as a matter of interest, at the IOMTT, Honda has the greatest number of wins. However, it could be argued that Yamaha has been the most successful manufacturer with significantly more rostrum places and more overall finishes. Norton has been the most successful British manufacturer.

Cheers again.

[JustPassinThru_imp]

The Triumph handled superbly compared to the Honda, and they had similar top speeds however the Honda had a 5 speed box and the Trident a 4 speed box, but more importantly the Honda had an electric started which Triumph didn't get until 1975... Way too late to save Triumph.

BTW little known, by 1973 Triumph had a 1000cc 4 cyl in prototype form called the Quadrant ( actually quite an attractive motorcycle) but it never made it to production.

A Brit UJM (or UBM?). Looks like it would have competed directly with the Kaw Z-1. I think that would have solved the modernization issue, but I have a feeling that the quality control issues would have still killed them.

A Brit UJM (or UBM?). Looks like it would have competed directly with the Kaw Z-1. I think that would have solved the modernization issue, but I have a feeling that the quality control issues would have still killed them.


I just looked up the Wikipedia write-up of Triumph Engineering - to learn and confirm. Aside from the facts, related here - and no, I didn't know Triumph automobiles and motorcycles were separate entities - the downfall of Triumph motorcycles was blamed on Honda's greater access to capital.

By the Japanese government, so it says. The Japanese government which was broke from losing the war and from rebuilding, even to 1970.

I don't think it was an issue of funding modernization that killed Triumph. It seemed to be a toxic stasis, that seems to hit industrial companies at their pinnacle. Three decades after Triumph, we all saw it with General Motors. And on the Japanese side, we're seeing it with Suzuki and Yamaha in their industries, now.

Innovation is avoided in favor of sticking to the same old mold; and the game-changer competition, the new guys with new ideas, are ignored. Until it's too late.

Harley-Davidson is the next to go. They have resisted new ideas since they were purchased in 1980; and while their customer base was eager to embrace the promotion of the brand, rather than development of the product...that customer base is THE same population it was 35 years ago.

Now about ready to go the way of all flesh. Harley-Davidson is going to be a storied brand without customers...the under-35s see H-D cycles as parodies. The ones who remember when that was what motorcycles were...are disappearing. Along with their own grandfathers, some of whom thought the Model T was the last word in automobiles.

Who will take the place of the stagnant Japanese brands? Perhaps nobody. Perhaps the kids today are so enamoured of the cyber-world they're not going to do anything they've been told is "dangerous" in the real world.

Until it all comes tumbling down, and motorcycles again become, not toys but valued tools. But that's fodder for another screed.

[Pterodactyl_imp]

JustPassin, I'm not so sure as you are about H-D. It is possible that, unlike most, they may have learnt from history.

Take the Street 500. The first completely new platform from HD for 14 years. Designed for the learner market (LAMS here in OZ) and aimed at the huge growth market of the sub-continent. This is so vital in the mind of HD that they have commenced manufacture in India. Not so long ago this would have been unthinkable. The Street is designed to meet the demands of the stop-and-go urban environment. Water cooled even! Not HD's traditional design brief, or market. The Street has what you might call budgetary clean lines and is, in effect, a blank canvas for customisation. Could be a good idea.

Then there is the Livewire. The Livewire is an important bike for Harley-Davidson. It is a complete departure from both its traditional market and its normal propulsion method. How will it develop? I dunno, but it seems to me that HD is working on a survival plan, and in agreement with you, they really need to. Best of luck to them as I hate to see the old marques fade away.

Cheers