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Indeed, lots of good and agreeable points Ferret.
AT (Africa Twin) folks would rather die before a shaft is considered for their machine. However, the amount of forum chatter around chain maintenance is deafening. The chain is constantly exposed to mud, dust, sand, etc. Nevertheless, forum folks seem to not want the extra weight, which is understandable.
Personally for me, I'd rather not deal with chain maintenance and I don't care being robbed a few horsepower. Hmm, maybe a shaft drive gives Honda "Euro 5" compliance grief? That could be a good enough reason to ultimately not consider shaft (as well as the extra cost to implement it).
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I wonder if the chatter on the GS and Tenere' forums are guys screaming for chains on their machines lol
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(08-19-2021, 03:26 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: I wonder if the chatter on the GS and Tenere' forums are guys screaming for chains on their machines lol
lol - there have been many times the AT "chain folks" have exploited blown-up BMW shaft drives in the open offroad.
Is does seem strange to be jumping dirt ramps with a shaft drive offroad-capable tourer ... but apparently they do.
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(08-19-2021, 01:26 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: Convenience.
Raise your hands... who here would buy a chain drive car?
If you don't ride a lot, it really doesn't matter how your bike is powered and MOST motorcyclists ride about 2500-3000 miles a year. In their case, a chain and sprockets or belt will last longer than they own the bike probably. At least 10 years.
But lets say you ride a lot. 20-25,000 miles a year like some of us do. A chain and sprockets will last a season MAYBE 2. I average about 24,700 miles a year. The original chain and sprocket set on my CB lasted 36,000 miles at which time it was $400 parts and labor to replace. I've now ridden 25,000 miles on the second set. So if it lives as long as the first set I have about 11,000 miles to go before it needs another $400 repair. or $800 in 75,000 miles.
Lets compare that to the shaft drive on my ST 1300 and my FJR. I put 110,000 miles on the ST and 38,000 miles on the FJR (before trading it in) and my cost to repair for 148,000 miles was $ ZERO.
There is some maintenance with both systems. With the chain it's adjustment and lubrication. With the shaft it was changing the rear end oil. If you ask me which one I prefer doing being a non mechanical type guy, it's changing the rear end fluid on the shaft. It's like changing the oil on the CB only skip the filter part of the process. Pull a drain plug, drain the fluid, replace the drain plug, pour in 7 oz of 80/90 wt oil once a year, twice if you're anal.
All that said, the CB 1100 should be chain drive, if nothing else for looks and tradition. I have no gripe with that.
But a sport touring bike like the NT 1100 designed with fairing and bags to go cross country and back really should have a shaft.
The AT in my opinion should also have a shaft because it's designed to compete with the shaft driven GS BMW and the shaft driven Yamaha Super Tenere' meant for cross country riding
Going with chains on bikes like these is really cheap on Honda's part, who used to make shaft drives available on bikes as small as 500cc.
I wish my NC750X had a shaft (and cruise since it already has fly by wire throttle) I agree with your points as you laid them out so clearly, still I don't think this NT1100 would be an ideal candidate, AT - maybe, Rebel - most definitely. Personally I don't mind getting down and giving my chain a cleanup and a lube, but I know that for many it's a necessary evil. As for the shafts, I've ridden quite a few bikes, but as far as ownership goes my only experience was with the MG California 1400, and the shaft was the only issue I have had with that motorcycle, busted seal, oil leak, waiting 10 full weeks for a spare part, and I have to mention that they've made it in a way that's impossible to drain and refill without taking the rear wheel off, and the rear wheel can be taken off only once the exhaust pipes are off. Bloody mess. I loved riding that motorcycle, but I was very agitated by that whole experience
'14 CB1100 STD 5 speed
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(08-19-2021, 01:26 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: Convenience.
Raise your hands... who here would buy a chain drive car?
If you don't ride a lot, it really doesn't matter how your bike is powered and MOST motorcyclists ride about 2500-3000 miles a year. In their case, a chain and sprockets or belt will last longer than they own the bike probably. At least 10 years.
But lets say you ride a lot. 20-25,000 miles a year like some of us do. A chain and sprockets will last a season MAYBE 2. I average about 24,700 miles a year. The original chain and sprocket set on my CB lasted 36,000 miles at which time it was $400 parts and labor to replace. I've now ridden 25,000 miles on the second set. So if it lives as long as the first set I have about 11,000 miles to go before it needs another $400 repair. or $800 in 75,000 miles.
Lets compare that to the shaft drive on my ST 1300 and my FJR. I put 110,000 miles on the ST and 38,000 miles on the FJR (before trading it in) and my cost to repair for 148,000 miles was $ ZERO.
There is some maintenance with both systems. With the chain it's adjustment and lubrication. With the shaft it was changing the rear end oil. If you ask me which one I prefer doing being a non mechanical type guy, it's changing the rear end fluid on the shaft. It's like changing the oil on the CB only skip the filter part of the process. Pull a drain plug, drain the fluid, replace the drain plug, pour in 7 oz of 80/90 wt oil once a year, twice if you're anal.
All that said, the CB 1100 should be chain drive, if nothing else for looks and tradition. I have no gripe with that.
But a sport touring bike like the NT 1100 designed with fairing and bags to go cross country and back really should have a shaft.
The AT in my opinion should also have a shaft because it's designed to compete with the shaft driven GS BMW and the shaft driven Yamaha Super Tenere' meant for cross country riding
Going with chains on bikes like these is really cheap on Honda's part, who used to make shaft drives available on bikes as small as 500cc.
I wish my NC750X had a shaft (and cruise since it already has fly by wire throttle)
The shaft drive on my Tiger 1200 has a "once only" oil change at the initial 600 mile run in service. Zero oil changes for life after that, specifically stated in the user manual by Triumph in bold lettering. It doesn't stop owners changing it out themselves for so-called peace of mind though. Quite why they think Triumph are wrong and they are right is beyond me. They will never realise the benefit of what they are doing.
I would happilly swap my heavy Tiger 1200 for a shaft drive 900/1000 with hydraulic valve lifters, the ultimate low maintenance tool (but not a low powered thing like the Guzzi 850T).
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Had four Japanese shaft final drives and never had a problem with any of them. The gear oil they use is so heavy, yeah, maybe change it once every five years.
Now, hydraulic valve lifters, well, that is a fantastic ...
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Modern chains are so much better than when I first started riding. After a discussion a while back on this forum about chain lubes I decided to give the synthetic gear oil another try. I have been converted now from the synthetic wax based lubes to gear oil. Works great, lasts longer and does not fling if applied sparingly. I have a one liter bottle of synthetic gear oil by Valvoline that I suspect will last 'till the next millennium. I clean the chain with WD-40 and apply the gear oil with a small paint brush.
Speaking of shaft drives, I've owned a BMW, Kawasaki, Honda and last a Moto Guzzi with shaft drive and never had a problem until the Guzzi which would weep gear oil from it's CARC drive without warning and the oil find it's way to the brake disc. With it's (MG) other habit of occasionally giving electrical problems, I was soured forever on Italian bikes.
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Chains are better and supposedly Regina is coming out with a zero maintenance chain for BMW.
https://www.asphaltandrubber.com/product...nce-chain/
if the claims prove true on this, it truly would be a game changer. Zero maintenance, no external lubrication, no adjustment needed.
I have my doubts
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(08-19-2021, 04:32 AM)redbirds_imp Wrote: Modern chains are so much better than when I first started riding. After a discussion a while back on this forum about chain lubes I decided to give the synthetic gear oil another try. I have been converted now from the synthetic wax based lubes to gear oil. Works great, lasts longer and does not fling if applied sparingly. I have a one liter bottle of synthetic gear oil by Valvoline that I suspect will last 'till the next millennium. I clean the chain with WD-40 and apply the gear oil with a small paint brush.
Speaking of shaft drives, I've owned a BMW, Kawasaki, Honda and last a Moto Guzzi with shaft drive and never had a problem until the Guzzi which would weep gear oil from it's CARC drive without warning and the oil find it's way to the brake disc. With it's (MG) other habit of occasionally giving electrical problems, I was soured forever on Italian bikes. I have been using regular 90 weight oil to lube chains exactly like that for many years, and this is recommended by the owner's manuals. Avoid messy throw-off on the wheel by wiping the chain dry after application, and again after a few miles. the lube will stay where it is needed, between the plates.
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If you want a shaft drive there are choices out there.
Having had both (BMW is not the only one with failed shaft drives, but they seem to get the spot light - and they are not that common) I don't feel strongly one way or the other. Both need attention (rear end fluid, u joint inspection and lube etc.). The cool thing about chain drives; do the sprockets and chain - you've done a complete overhaul of your drive system.
My XR650L, with a stock front drive sprocket that is too narrow for a lack of a cush drive and can wear out your counter shaft. $$$.
But being chain drive is not deal killer.
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