ABS: Good, or Bad?

[Red Mist_imp]

One irony for the general audience of this site is that as a person builds up cumulative hours of riding experience, that same person also ages. Sadly, with age comes a degradation of physical skills and reaction times.

ABS isn't going to help someone avoid every single bad situation involving braking or avoidance maneuvers. Neither are track days or riding dirt bikes for that matter. On the flip side, non of these things are going to hurt ones chances of survival on the street.

While I chose to go without ABS, I don't see it as a bandaid. I certainly do not view ABS as a substitute for skilled riding or good planning, but I do see it as complimentary to those things. It would seem to me that a truly skilled rider at the top of his or her game could hop on a bike with a good ABS system and use it to its full advantage. If that's not the case, I'd generally suspect the riders skills are at fault rather than the ABS.

Rider skills?
ABS allows the 99.999% of riders and drivers who cannot threshold brake at the limits of tire adhesion to achieve the same result by simply slamming the pedal or lever all the way down. And what do the vast majority of riders and drivers do in a panic/danger situation? They slam the pedal or lever all the way down. With no track days, no lifetime of training, not even coherent thought, Average Joe brakes like Vic Elford.

Here's what the AMA (American Motorcyclist Association) has to say on the topic:
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Feat...aking.aspx
More than one of the internet myths on ABS that have been posted on this very thread are debunked.

It's funny, I remember hearing the same stuff about other safety technologies. Seat belts would "trap you in the car" or "restrict your movement" and were thus unsafe. Air bags were "dangerous explosive devices" that if installed in cars would "maim and kill thousands" every year. That last one was from no less than Lee Iacocca in his autobiography.

If people don't want to exploit every safety technology out there, that's up to them. Personally, I'll go out of my way to make my ride safer. I've been down, and I didn't like it.

One day, in the distant future, ABS will be able to do what is claimed here, just like airbags today can do. At first, airbags weren't so great. These days they are much better.

I own both ABS and non-ABS motorcycles. All have excellent hardware for the brakes, providing very good modulation, power, and control. The ABS-equipped bike takes me, personally, much longer to get stopped than the other three. First thing I did when I got that ABS bike is to go out and get the ABS to kick in, on both clean, dry pavement and dirt.

What did I learn? It does not work on the front brake below about 10 mph in the dirt (this is a BMW F700GS adventure bike). She locked right up and I had to use my old, useless, ancient, degraded, old-man skills to recover. But then, I expected it, so maybe I was cheating.

Second thing I learned is that the front brake ABS kicks in sooner than lockup would actually occur; that is, this bike releases the brake before the threshold of maximum braking. I practice threshold braking constantly, every single time I ride, to the point where the rear tire is barely putting pressure on the ground. I like to do this, it's fun. I know my bikes very well, and the BMW robs me of this pleasure; it kicks in too soon. Not only that, but this could create a serious problem under aggressive braking during corner entry, as a sudden release of brake pressure prematurely can put you right off your line.

Also found that the rear ABS kicks in far earlier than lockup would occur. I can thankfully turn this feature off and tested it both ways. The rear ABS would consistently release brake pressure well before actual lockup would occur. I was able to brake much harder without the ABS on, and without lockup.

Anyway, it's been stated a few times that ABS is for the 99 percent of riders who don't race, haven't done a lot of track days and training, and are prone to "grabbing a handful". That's true and hopefully it'll save their bacon sometime.

Only thing I've noticed is there are lots of riders willing to bet on ABS who've never gone to a single track day and probably never will. Well, I say go ahead and get the ABS bike if you think it'll help you, by all means. But why not combine some real-life training with modern technology? Why hope ABS will allow you to survive a mistake when you can learn how not to make the mistake in the first place, and then your ABS is an additional layer of security and not that band-aid for a missing skill?

I'm going to try this one more time: ABS does not take away ANY of your control of your bike. It activates upon brake lock. Once your brakes are locked you have virtually no control of your bike anyway. Plus, your conventional braking strategy will work exactly the same on an ABS bike as a nonABS bike.

I understand that you feel that you don't need ABS and that is your choice. However, there are newer AND experienced riders reading this thread trying to find out if ABS is better than conventional. Some of the comments here seem to imply that no rider, or at least no experienced rider, should have ABS. Keeping in mind that we all should be employing good technique and therefore avoid locking the brakes in the first place, ABS is better because it will stop your bike in a more controlled manner IF you ever have a technique breakdown for whatever reason.

None of my comments imply that; I recommend ABS and traction control for any rider who can afford them.

I am just responding to the thread title and my views and experience with ABS.

I am also rightly stating that any and all riders can greatly benefit from the kind of intensive training one receives at a good track day school.

So why not do both?

One irony for the general audience of this site is that as a person builds up cumulative hours of riding experience, that same person also ages. Sadly, with age comes a degradation of physical skills and reaction times.

ABS isn't going to help someone avoid every single bad situation involving braking or avoidance maneuvers. Neither are track days or riding dirt bikes for that matter. On the flip side, non of these things are going to hurt ones chances of survival on the street.

While I chose to go without ABS, I don't see it as a bandaid. I certainly do not view ABS as a substitute for skilled riding or good planning, but I do see it as complimentary to those things. It would seem to me that a truly skilled rider at the top of his or her game could hop on a bike with a good ABS system and use it to its full advantage. If that's not the case, I'd generally suspect the riders skills are at fault rather than the ABS.

Not so. First off, I'm certainly one of the older riders on this site, at 57, but I am riding as well as I ever have, through continual practice and training. I don't ride off-road any longer but at my last track day I was planting my knee quite happily into the pavement and pulling the front tire off the ground from time to time...not too bad for an older man. In fact, I'm riding quicker now than ever because the equipment I have is so much better and tires have improved dramatically. So you can forget the notion that old guys get slow. I rode with Reg Pridmore recently and he rides like greased lightning, and the guy's pushing 70.

Second, we need to understand what ABS actually does and that's our problem here, a lack of understanding.

ABS does not just "take over" the braking and brake to perfection, like the RoboCop suit. All it does, to one degree or another, is release the brakes when a slide is detected. At this point the rider should have brains enough to release the brake a little and regain control. Most ABS systems are low-resolution, low-processing power, and are a band-aid only.

Automobile manuals have been telling us to mash the brakes to the floor and ride it out in an emergency and that's also wrong for someone who knows how to use the brakes. I have a couple of pretty high-performance cars and it's fun to feel the ABS and stability control kick in when the tires touch some uneven pavement, but it's only for a few tenths of a second. The rest of the time, I'm in control.

Consider this...the winner in a MotoGP race is the rider who crosses the finish line first (unless there is some technicality involved, of course). If ABS, like traction control, would help with this, these guys would be using it. They don't use it because it would be very dangerous if a pack of racers came shrieking into a corner, and the ABS released the brakes on a rider's machine whilst in very close quarters with another bike. It takes a lot of skill and concentration and you can't have computers running things. It's up to the rider to be good enough. If you have never ridden a machine with terrific brakes, in a racing environment, you cannot appreciate the superb feel and control that great brakes provide, at all lean angles and under all conditions. I can tell you that a good rider can very precisely and smoothly control and modulate the brakes even at deep lean angles and during a cornering transition.

Track days, off-road riding, braking and cornering exercises...we can't learn to really ride a motorcycle to its potential just riding around on the street or reading about it, we've got to do it. Or as Flynrider said -- and I paraphrase -- we can just keep doing whatever we're doing and hope the ABS works as imagined.

It's not that ABS is not a good safe add on. It is. All I'm saying is to me it takes away from the full control of the rider. Heck I have ABS on both my deluxe models. I was riding my 78 cb750four in my yard. I have a huge yard. 5 acres I also have another 15 acres that about 4 years ago I built a full Moto cross track. Had people coming from all over to ride. Doubles, triples, table tops step ups bad bad woop section. Made the track for my son. But back to the yard. And the 78 750four I was running about 18mph and my sons dog a Great Dane ran out in front of me I hit the rear brake. ( drum ) slid the bike around rear tire locked up then gassed it and missed the dog and was headed back from where I was coming from. No biggie if I would of slid down but with ABS I could not of done that. And I'm soon to be 54 in a few months ! I'm by far no expert but I can ride and can still think. Riding a bike should be a part of you after so many years if you really are into bikes! Nothing to argue about I just think I ( meaning me ) should be able to lock up my rear tire if I want to or need to. Crazy as it might should and I guess to some it is. But I had a 03 ultra classic that on long trips I would set my cruise move to the back set with no way to hit brakes or touch handle bars and ride for over 45 min on the back set. Had several friends on our 5k mile plus trips and they knew what I was going to do. Relax and ride. Never ride over your head! But man and machine can become as one and it's no limit to what you can do on a bike . Yea call me crazy but I got another good friend and we can swap bikes going down the hwy! My wife and I can swap from front to back of bike while cruising! Got another friend that can wheelie a gsxr1000 with 5 people on it and then do a stoppie with the 5 on it with rear end almost flipping over the front but he can control that bike with mere brake control. Wet roads etc newbie riders ABS is great. Guys our age we rode all of our life's with out ABS and we HAD TO LEARN TO CONTROL IN RAIN, water, gravel etc. Yes I'm ole fashion and proud of it. As I get older I might want the training wheels to keep myself in the wind

Well-said, my friend, well-said. Freddie Spencer, a little-known racer that you might have heard of once or twice, once remarked that he had a track built in his back yard and when he was four years old, rode that track from dawn to dark, clockwise and counterclockwise, with half of it wet down and the other half dry. Spencer did and can still do amazing things on a motorcycle (such as winning a World Championship at 19) but it all comes down to training and experience.

I myself could also relate countless stories of stuff that was just no big deal because I know how to handle a bike; once a guy crashed right in front of me on the racetrack and I knew he was going to slide right into my path. The only way I could avoid him was to lock up the rear in an "on/off" pattern as any good dirt rider knows how to do. This kicked out the rear end of my motorcycle and allowed me to just barely miss him. I walked the track right after and could clearly see the skid marks in a broken-line type of pattern showing what I did.

Another time (since we are chewing the fat) I was riding with a group of people at high altitudes in December, and was following a guy who was quite fast. I was riding a BMW R100GS, about 470 pounds and 58 HP but it could rail through the fast turns pretty well. I came around a right hander at about 60 mph and it was just as pretty as a picture, all coated with a thin layer of rime ice. There was no way to get through it so I just stood the bike up, shot over to the opposite shoulder, which was unpaved dirt (no traffic coming) and brought the bike to a nice stop.

The next guy who came around crashed.

Guys we are not making this stuff up.

Like it or not, old guys in and of themselves do get slower. This is a big part of why the up and coming guys in the world of racing are almost always younger than the outgoing "old guys" that they are displacing from the podium.

Your statement somewhat makes my point for me. Advances in technology have helped to offset the negative impacts of the aging rider, and then some.
Ridem, as far as the CB1100 goes, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Do you not use the front brake on your bike?

I'm going to try this one more time: ABS does not take away ANY of your control of your bike. It activates upon brake lock. Once your brakes are locked you have virtually no control of your bike anyway. Plus, your conventional braking strategy will work exactly the same on an ABS bike as a nonABS bike.

I understand that you feel that you don't need ABS and that is your choice. However, there are newer AND experienced riders reading this thread trying to find out if ABS is better than conventional. Some of the comments here seem to imply that no rider, or at least no experienced rider, should have ABS. Keeping in mind that we all should be employing good technique and therefore avoid locking the brakes in the first place, ABS is better because it will stop your bike in a more controlled manner IF you ever have a technique breakdown for whatever reason.

That's why I find John McGuinness' comments regarding ABS so insightful. He definitely contradicts the notion mentioned above and his skill set is off of the scale.

Your statement somewhat makes my point for me. Advances in technology have helped to offset the negative impacts of the aging rider, and then some. No, my statement does nothing of the sort. As we can see from the quoted post, I said I'm riding faster now than ever before due to the new technology.

This web page reflects my personal view of ABS: handy in a pinch, but not a substitute for practice. Even ABS brakes require practice in order to get the most out of them. Italicized material is quoted from the page.

You can improve your braking performance slightly beyond the ABS braking maximum by manully adjusting the brake control pressure, and Lee Parks insists that when he was testing bikes for Motorcycle Consumer News that he could consistently outperform the Promocycle braking performance, with or without ABS. No doubt, but Lee Parks is a brilliant, highly competitive track rider and the average leisure biker has no hope of attaining his level of virtuosity. The bike brake testing was performed in perfect conditions, which rarely occur on real roads, the rider can do some practice runs, and he knows in advance where he should start braking.

ABS: worth the price.

We have little doubt that, except for true experts, operating in perfect conditions, most riders in ambient conditions will perform much better in emergency stopping with ABS

The accumulation of evidence looks like ABS does work on bikes, and that it probably saves lives.

We'd like to see ABS available on more models of motorcycles, and perhaps the current cycle crash causation study will include enough ABS-equipped motorcycles in its exposure data to be able to settle the matter for once and for all. We think that if ABS was a proven lifesaver, the operation of the market and the product liability issues would lead to greater availability and reduced costs.

In the meantime, if you are buying a bike, and ABS is an option, we recommend you get it.

That makes sense to me.

One irony for the general audience of this site is that as a person builds up cumulative hours of riding experience, that same person also ages. Sadly, with age comes a degradation of physical skills and reaction times.

ABS isn't going to help someone avoid every single bad situation involving braking or avoidance maneuvers. Neither are track days or riding dirt bikes for that matter. On the flip side, non of these things are going to hurt ones chances of survival on the street.

While I chose to go without ABS, I don't see it as a bandaid. I certainly do not view ABS as a substitute for skilled riding or good planning, but I do see it as complimentary to those things. It would seem to me that a truly skilled rider at the top of his or her game could hop on a bike with a good ABS system and use it to its full advantage. If that's not the case, I'd generally suspect the riders skills are at fault rather than the ABS.

Rider skills?
ABS allows the 99.999% of riders and drivers who cannot threshold brake at the limits of tire adhesion to achieve the same result by simply slamming the pedal or lever all the way down. And what do the vast majority of riders and drivers do in a panic/danger situation? They slam the pedal or lever all the way down. With no track days, no lifetime of training, not even coherent thought, Average Joe brakes like Vic Elford.

Here's what the AMA (American Motorcyclist Association) has to say on the topic:
[url=http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Features/RideReports/AntiLockBraking.aspx]http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Features/RideReports/AntiLockBraking.aspx
More than one of the internet myths on ABS that have been posted on this very thread are debunked.

It's funny, I remember hearing the same stuff about other safety technologies. Seat belts would "trap you in the car" or "restrict your movement" and were thus unsafe. Air bags were "dangerous explosive devices" that if installed in cars would "maim and kill thousands" every year. That last one was from no less than Lee Iacocca in his autobiography.

If people don't want to exploit every safety technology out there, that's up to them. Personally, I'll go out of my way to make my ride safer. I've been down, and I didn't like it.

One day, in the distant future, ABS will be able to do what is claimed here, just like airbags today can do. At first, airbags weren't so great. These days they are much better.

I own both ABS and non-ABS motorcycles. All have excellent hardware for the brakes, providing very good modulation, power, and control. The ABS-equipped bike takes me, personally, much longer to get stopped than the other three. First thing I did when I got that ABS bike is to go out and get the ABS to kick in, on both clean, dry pavement and dirt.

What did I learn? It does not work on the front brake below about 10 mph in the dirt (this is a BMW F700GS adventure bike). She locked right up and I had to use my old, useless, ancient, degraded, old-man skills to recover. But then, I expected it, so maybe I was cheating.

Second thing I learned is that the front brake ABS kicks in sooner than lockup would actually occur; that is, this bike releases the brake before the threshold of maximum braking. I practice threshold braking constantly, every single time I ride, to the point where the rear tire is barely putting pressure on the ground. I like to do this, it's fun. I know my bikes very well, and the BMW robs me of this pleasure; it kicks in too soon. Not only that, but this could create a serious problem under aggressive braking during corner entry, as a sudden release of brake pressure prematurely can put you right off your line.

Also found that the rear ABS kicks in far earlier than lockup would occur. I can thankfully turn this feature off and tested it both ways. The rear ABS would consistently release brake pressure well before actual lockup would occur. I was able to brake much harder without the ABS on, and without lockup.

Anyway, it's been stated a few times that ABS is for the 99 percent of riders who don't race, haven't done a lot of track days and training, and are prone to "grabbing a handful". That's true and hopefully it'll save their bacon sometime.

Only thing I've noticed is there are lots of riders willing to bet on ABS who've never gone to a single track day and probably never will. Well, I say go ahead and get the ABS bike if you think it'll help you, by all means. But why not combine some real-life training with modern technology? Why hope ABS will allow you to survive a mistake when you can learn how not to make the mistake in the first place, and then your ABS is an additional layer of security and not that band-aid for a missing skill?

I'm going to try this one more time: ABS does not take away ANY of your control of your bike. It activates upon brake lock. Once your brakes are locked you have virtually no control of your bike anyway. Plus, your conventional braking strategy will work exactly the same on an ABS bike as a nonABS bike.

I understand that you feel that you don't need ABS and that is your choice. However, there are newer AND experienced riders reading this thread trying to find out if ABS is better than conventional. Some of the comments here seem to imply that no rider, or at least no experienced rider, should have ABS. Keeping in mind that we all should be employing good technique and therefore avoid locking the brakes in the first place, ABS is better because it will stop your bike in a more controlled manner IF you ever have a technique breakdown for whatever reason.

None of my comments imply that; I recommend ABS and traction control for any rider who can afford them.

I am just responding to the thread title and my views and experience with ABS.

I am also rightly stating that any and all riders can greatly benefit from the kind of intensive training one receives at a good track day school.

So why not do both?

One irony for the general audience of this site is that as a person builds up cumulative hours of riding experience, that same person also ages. Sadly, with age comes a degradation of physical skills and reaction times.

ABS isn't going to help someone avoid every single bad situation involving braking or avoidance maneuvers. Neither are track days or riding dirt bikes for that matter. On the flip side, non of these things are going to hurt ones chances of survival on the street.

While I chose to go without ABS, I don't see it as a bandaid. I certainly do not view ABS as a substitute for skilled riding or good planning, but I do see it as complimentary to those things. It would seem to me that a truly skilled rider at the top of his or her game could hop on a bike with a good ABS system and use it to its full advantage. If that's not the case, I'd generally suspect the riders skills are at fault rather than the ABS.

Not so. First off, I'm certainly one of the older riders on this site, at 57, but I am riding as well as I ever have, through continual practice and training. I don't ride off-road any longer but at my last track day I was planting my knee quite happily into the pavement and pulling the front tire off the ground from time to time...not too bad for an older man. In fact, I'm riding quicker now than ever because the equipment I have is so much better and tires have improved dramatically. So you can forget the notion that old guys get slow. I rode with Reg Pridmore recently and he rides like greased lightning, and the guy's pushing 70.

Second, we need to understand what ABS actually does and that's our problem here, a lack of understanding.

ABS does not just "take over" the braking and brake to perfection, like the RoboCop suit. All it does, to one degree or another, is release the brakes when a slide is detected. At this point the rider should have brains enough to release the brake a little and regain control. Most ABS systems are low-resolution, low-processing power, and are a band-aid only.

Automobile manuals have been telling us to mash the brakes to the floor and ride it out in an emergency and that's also wrong for someone who knows how to use the brakes. I have a couple of pretty high-performance cars and it's fun to feel the ABS and stability control kick in when the tires touch some uneven pavement, but it's only for a few tenths of a second. The rest of the time, I'm in control.

Consider this...the winner in a MotoGP race is the rider who crosses the finish line first (unless there is some technicality involved, of course). If ABS, like traction control, would help with this, these guys would be using it. They don't use it because it would be very dangerous if a pack of racers came shrieking into a corner, and the ABS released the brakes on a rider's machine whilst in very close quarters with another bike. It takes a lot of skill and concentration and you can't have computers running things. It's up to the rider to be good enough. If you have never ridden a machine with terrific brakes, in a racing environment, you cannot appreciate the superb feel and control that great brakes provide, at all lean angles and under all conditions. I can tell you that a good rider can very precisely and smoothly control and modulate the brakes even at deep lean angles and during a cornering transition.

Track days, off-road riding, braking and cornering exercises...we can't learn to really ride a motorcycle to its potential just riding around on the street or reading about it, we've got to do it. Or as Flynrider said -- and I paraphrase -- we can just keep doing whatever we're doing and hope the ABS works as imagined.

It's not that ABS is not a good safe add on. It is. All I'm saying is to me it takes away from the full control of the rider. Heck I have ABS on both my deluxe models. I was riding my 78 cb750four in my yard. I have a huge yard. 5 acres I also have another 15 acres that about 4 years ago I built a full Moto cross track. Had people coming from all over to ride. Doubles, triples, table tops step ups bad bad woop section. Made the track for my son. But back to the yard. And the 78 750four I was running about 18mph and my sons dog a Great Dane ran out in front of me I hit the rear brake. ( drum ) slid the bike around rear tire locked up then gassed it and missed the dog and was headed back from where I was coming from. No biggie if I would of slid down but with ABS I could not of done that. And I'm soon to be 54 in a few months ! I'm by far no expert but I can ride and can still think. Riding a bike should be a part of you after so many years if you really are into bikes! Nothing to argue about I just think I ( meaning me ) should be able to lock up my rear tire if I want to or need to. Crazy as it might should and I guess to some it is. But I had a 03 ultra classic that on long trips I would set my cruise move to the back set with no way to hit brakes or touch handle bars and ride for over 45 min on the back set. Had several friends on our 5k mile plus trips and they knew what I was going to do. Relax and ride. Never ride over your head! But man and machine can become as one and it's no limit to what you can do on a bike . Yea call me crazy but I got another good friend and we can swap bikes going down the hwy! My wife and I can swap from front to back of bike while cruising! Got another friend that can wheelie a gsxr1000 with 5 people on it and then do a stoppie with the 5 on it with rear end almost flipping over the front but he can control that bike with mere brake control. Wet roads etc newbie riders ABS is great. Guys our age we rode all of our life's with out ABS and we HAD TO LEARN TO CONTROL IN RAIN, water, gravel etc. Yes I'm ole fashion and proud of it. As I get older I might want the training wheels to keep myself in the wind

Well-said, my friend, well-said. Freddie Spencer, a little-known racer that you might have heard of once or twice, once remarked that he had a track built in his back yard and when he was four years old, rode that track from dawn to dark, clockwise and counterclockwise, with half of it wet down and the other half dry. Spencer did and can still do amazing things on a motorcycle (such as winning a World Championship at 19) but it all comes down to training and experience.

I myself could also relate countless stories of stuff that was just no big deal because I know how to handle a bike; once a guy crashed right in front of me on the racetrack and I knew he was going to slide right into my path. The only way I could avoid him was to lock up the rear in an "on/off" pattern as any good dirt rider knows how to do. This kicked out the rear end of my motorcycle and allowed me to just barely miss him. I walked the track right after and could clearly see the skid marks in a broken-line type of pattern showing what I did.

Another time (since we are chewing the fat) I was riding with a group of people at high altitudes in December, and was following a guy who was quite fast. I was riding a BMW R100GS, about 470 pounds and 58 HP but it could rail through the fast turns pretty well. I came around a right hander at about 60 mph and it was just as pretty as a picture, all coated with a thin layer of rime ice. There was no way to get through it so I just stood the bike up, shot over to the opposite shoulder, which was unpaved dirt (no traffic coming) and brought the bike to a nice stop.

The next guy who came around crashed.

Guys we are not making this stuff up.

Like it or not, old guys in and of themselves do get slower. This is a big part of why the up and coming guys in the world of racing are almost always younger than the outgoing "old guys" that they are displacing from the podium.

Your statement somewhat makes my point for me. Advances in technology have helped to offset the negative impacts of the aging rider, and then some.
Ridem, as far as the CB1100 goes, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Do you not use the front brake on your bike?

I'm going to try this one more time: ABS does not take away ANY of your control of your bike. It activates upon brake lock. Once your brakes are locked you have virtually no control of your bike anyway. Plus, your conventional braking strategy will work exactly the same on an ABS bike as a nonABS bike.

I understand that you feel that you don't need ABS and that is your choice. However, there are newer AND experienced riders reading this thread trying to find out if ABS is better than conventional. Some of the comments here seem to imply that no rider, or at least no experienced rider, should have ABS. Keeping in mind that we all should be employing good technique and therefore avoid locking the brakes in the first place, ABS is better because it will stop your bike in a more controlled manner IF you ever have a technique breakdown for whatever reason.

That's why I find John McGuinness' comments regarding ABS so insightful. He definitely contradicts the notion mentioned above and his skill set is off of the scale.

Your statement somewhat makes my point for me. Advances in technology have helped to offset the negative impacts of the aging rider, and then some. No, my statement does nothing of the sort. As we can see from the quoted post, I said I'm riding faster now than ever before due to the new technology.

[url=http://www.bikesafer.com/abs.html]This web page reflects my personal view of ABS: handy in a pinch, but not a substitute for practice. Even ABS brakes require practice in order to get the most out of them. Italicized material is quoted from the page.

You can improve your braking performance slightly beyond the ABS braking maximum by manully adjusting the brake control pressure, and Lee Parks insists that when he was testing bikes for Motorcycle Consumer News that he could consistently outperform the Promocycle braking performance, with or without ABS. No doubt, but Lee Parks is a brilliant, highly competitive track rider and the average leisure biker has no hope of attaining his level of virtuosity. The bike brake testing was performed in perfect conditions, which rarely occur on real roads, the rider can do some practice runs, and he knows in advance where he should start braking.

ABS: worth the price.

We have little doubt that, except for true experts, operating in perfect conditions, most riders in ambient conditions will perform much better in emergency stopping with ABS

The accumulation of evidence looks like ABS does work on bikes, and that it probably saves lives.

We'd like to see ABS available on more models of motorcycles, and perhaps the current cycle crash causation study will include enough ABS-equipped motorcycles in its exposure data to be able to settle the matter for once and for all. We think that if ABS was a proven lifesaver, the operation of the market and the product liability issues would lead to greater availability and reduced costs.

In the meantime, if you are buying a bike, and ABS is an option, we recommend you get it.

Your statement somewhat makes my point for me. Advances in technology have helped to offset the negative impacts of the aging rider, and then some. No, my statement does nothing of the sort. As we can see from the quoted post, I said I'm riding faster now than ever before due to the new technology.
Yes, but you indicated that your riding faster due to the new technology. I'm not trying to imply that you are slow in any way. But there are two parts to the story here, the rider and the machine. If you were still riding the same bike that you were say 25 years ago, how would your times compare?

I'm not especially fast compared to the really competitive guys and gals out there, let's be clear on that, but I do run A group.

I'd be much, much slower on the bike I had 25 years ago. That would have been a Honda VFR70F Interceptor, the homologated platform which Honda was using in AMA Superbike in the late 1980s. So that would a direct analog to the GSX-R 750 of today. Many of the great racers of that era rode the "factory" racebike version, called the RC24. Wayne Rainey, Bubba Shobert and some of the other greats were on this bike back in the day.

This is a very good question because we can compare what's changed; the Honda was state of the art back then, with 106 HP (at the crankshaft), and 507 pounds wet weight which was light for the time. It ran a 110 and 130 width tire, front/rear, with 16" and 18" wheels, front/rear.

By comparison today's GSX-R is going to put out 148 HP at the crank, weigh 419 pounds wet, and runs a 120 front/180 rear tire, with 17" wheels at both ends.

The Suzuki also has drastically better chassis, brakes and suspension. As it is, it can easily break any lap record just right off the showroom floor that was set by the factory bikes of 25 years ago.

I was doing things on that GSX-R that I never could have done with an older bike and was still completely in control. It just has so much more lean angle, traction, suspension compliance and power.

If I was to pick one thing that really makes the difference it's going to be tires, but the grip is such that it would overwhelm the suspension of the old days.

Freddie Spencer once remarked that the thing which really changes over time is not ability, but desire. After a decade or so of hard racing (Spencer called it "war") a man's mind begins to see the rewards are just not that appealing compared to the risk. Spencer dropped out of racing around 1990 but for quite a few years he would unexpectedly show up at a racetrack and enter an AMA Superbike race, and oftentimes he would set the hot lap or smoke everyone for a lap or two, but then not even finish the event. There was one occasion where he raced in the rain, and he was always superb in the wet (having done Grands Prix for years in that sort of weather) and he just toasted everyone on that day.

So it's not really the ability, it's a maturity that begins to kick in that says home, health, family, and other things are more important that beating that young kid to the finish line.

The one other thing that does change is endurance; we get tired sooner, no matter how hard we train, after a certain age. But as far as going out and reeling off a couple of blistering laps, a lot of these "old" guys can still do it in their 40s and 50s.

Here's Wayne on the VFR750F.

[Red Mist_imp]

We saw one of our member get into trouble with an ABS bike when a car was going to enter his path. That was dry pavement in the daylight. He did stop, but with his front end compressed he was enable to make any corrections.

Lets just use an example:

Wet pavement and a car pulls out in front of you, you have ABS but the pulsating of the brakes does not allow you to stop in time, how do you change direction?? You don't

Non abs you feather the front and hard on the rear// your not going to stop on time, you have options. Lock up the rear and change direction hoping you don't high side, or just lock it up and low side and let the bike go out from under you. I'm sure a lot of member here have rode dirt, this is a common practice.

There's no doubt a new or inexperienced rider would be better off with ABS.

Edit: LOL I can remember when we where kids on our dirt bikes doing this all the time but with age I'm not sure how well this would turn out. I would like to think it would be instinct but I'm not sure.

So, without ABS, he would have locked up the front tire, washed-out the front end, and fallen. Seems like ABS saved his butt (and bike) from an accident to me.

Good save FB your riding experience helped you a lot. Those close calls happens and you kept your cool and made it

Since Ridem32 has shown up it has certainly taken the load off of me. Every single thing he has said is correct here. We have very similar backgrounds, extensive dirt riding, dual-sport, motocross/desert, also I don't know all his experience but I have roadraced and taught with a track school, and continue to do track days on my GSX-R.

One thing that should be thought about here is that your bike should decelerate just as fast as it can accelerate. Most bikes can pull more Gs with the brakes than they can with the throttle, but only if the rider knows how. Anyone can twist a throttle, but few riders are actually accomplished on the brakes. I enjoy braking as much as any other part of riding, even more, really. I love hauling the bike down at corner entry and smoothly rolling it onto the perfect line whilst easing off the brakes and picking up the throttle. I love just braking HARD on clean straight pavement until a bit of daylight shows under the rear tire, so hard that it takes the same force as my body weight to brace myself against the bars.

At track days, there are a lot of guys and gals who like to take the superwide lookieloo line, which, BTW, is the slow line around the track. The shortest distance around the track is almost always the fastest, and squaring off the turn, Kenny Roberts-style, is the way to do it. But that requires great brake and throttle control in order to stuff it up the inside, "in slow, out fast". The wide, sweeping line uses little brakes or acceleration and anyone using this line to race is going to get smoked right up the inside all day long, but it's favored by newer riders because some schools teach it and talk it up. Riders like it because it doesn't require much braking or acceleration, something that can't be done when you are all the way over on the side of the tire. I like to take the tight line, square it off, stuff it in underneath, and then blast out earlier than the other guy, because I'm more upright and can get on the throttle sooner. It's a dirt-riding technique. Kenny Roberts talks about it extensively in his book, and Freddie Spencer remarked earlier this year about Marc Marquez re-introducing this technique that he and Kenny used in the 1980s; Roberts also mentioned this in another interview recently in MCN.

MotoGP bikes don't use ABS and the point is that all ABS systems do is compensate for a lack of skill or a mistake on the part of the rider. ABS cannot possibly stop the bike faster than a skilled rider on dry, clean pavement. As Ridem32 has correctly said, many tests are available that prove this. A very sophisticated control system can certainly help under wet or difficult conditions, but control systems vary greatly from one vehicle to the next. Some do nothing more than release the brake at or just before the point of lockup. Others are supplied with data from multiple accelerometers and lean angle sensors connected to a high-performance ECU.

The bottom line here is that until someone has mastered this very important skill, the discussion isn't meaningful. Most riders these days will never throw a leg over a dirtbike, they want to start out with something big and powerful. In such a case, I would want all the ABS, traction control, and ECU management in there that is available.

But it's not for me, and to demonstrate why, just a couple of months ago, Cycle World picked the GSX-R 750 as the best middleweight superbike available, as compared to the Ducati 899 twin and MV Agusta triple, both of which made more peak horsepower on the dyno. But the Suzuki had the fastest lap times (at the Streets of Willow) and also the fastest straightaway speeds. But, unlike the two Italian bikes, it did NOT have any electronic intervention, such as traction control; it's all analog and all up to the rider. It was rider skill that got the most out of the bike and that will always be the case.

The more we work at building skill the better off we are, but brake and engine intervention are here to stay. Newer riders should take advantage of all these things.

Please note: When I say "you" I mostly mean "dear reader" and not necessarily the person I quoted.

Comparing track riding to riding on the street is fallacious since the track is swept clean and there aren't cagers running around trying to kill you, dropping their ill-maintained vehicles' fluids all over the pavement. And MotoGP bikes all have traction control. (Rossi, cheating, blah, blah, doesn't matter, the TC is better than the rider).

That being said, the key word in your sentence, that I don't necessarily disagree with, is "skilled" rider. I submit that hardly anyone here/any where is a skilled rider ("skilled" such that it makes that sentence true for the vast majority of riders). Obviously, you have extensive experience, doing track days, teaching, and what-not. You have to realize that 99% of the motorcycling public has not ever done that, and have no desire to do so, and that's their choice.

That 99%'s first reaction to impending doom is to clamp down on the brakes as hard as they can; they know of no other avoidance technique. They don't know about threshold braking or have the wherewithal to swerve because they haven't been keeping abreast of their escape routes. What's more, as I mentioned previously, the surface over which we ride is a variable quantity. You cannot possibly know beforehand the condition of the road surface before something unexpected happens, by its very nature.

For riding on the street, ABS has one small disadvantage that only a tiny fraction of the motorcycling public would be detrimentally affected by. For EVERYONE ELSE (the 99%), ABS offers tremendous advantage. Clamp down on the lever, the front wheel will not wash out on you and you have a MUCH better chance of making it than without it. For the VAST MAJORITY OF RIDERS (which is to say, basically, everyone), ABS is better than not having ABS.

For those advocating sliding/dumping the bike in a possible accident situation, I ask, did you even take the MSF BRC? The coefficient of friction between the asphalt and tire is _WAY_ higher than between the asphalt and your jeans/leathers/whatever. You're still going to hit whatever it was, except now you're going to hit it at a higher rate of speed. Good luck with that.

Lastly, for those with "years of experience," I submit that it doesn't really mean anything. If you haven't practiced threshold braking ON THIS BIKE (which itself is hard because you really need outriggers to find the envelope unless you like a rashed-up bike), over many different kinds of surfaces, at least 1,000 times for each different kind (the generally accepted average number of times a person must repeat an action before it becomes subconscious muscle memory), all prior experience is basically moot. You have no idea where the threshold is for the front tire on this bike, and you're back into the crowd of 99% for whom ABS is a benefit because you can clamp on the binders with all your fury and not worry about washing out the front tire while utilizing the maximum braking force afforded to you by the braking system and the available traction of the road surface at the time.

Well, I guess we are saying about the same thing here, and to just reiterate, most riders these days don't start in the dirt like a lot of us did so they're never going to develop those innate skills.

What seems impossible to someone who can't do it or doesn't understand it is entirely possible to someone who has been practicing it for thousands of hours. There's a book called "Outliers" that lays out the theory that anyone who's very good at something has practiced at it a minimum of 10,000 hours. After 31 years of riding I've gotten in well over ten thousand hours so I can indeed do things on a motorcycle that many cannot.

As far as track riding having little or nothing in common with street riding, I could not disagree more, and I've thousands of miles of racetrack time on many tracks. What the track allows us to do is to get right up to our personal limits and/or the limits of the motorcycle. Then, when the crap hits the fan, after enough track practice and learning how hard we can brake, how far we can lean, and just what we can really do if necessary, we can use the brakes, tires, and engine in that moment to avoid the accident rather than have it.

Racetracks are not always swept clean nor are they pristine as a billiard ball. Many are as rough as public roads, or have pavement changes throughout. I've been on many a track day or race practice where someone's blown an engine and laid a nice bath of synthetic oil across the track. On one occasion six riders crashed before the corner marshals got everyone stopped. Because I had my eyes up and on the flags, I took the line through the very bottom of the turn, away from the spill, and managed to get through OK. There is plenty of traffic on the racetrack and a few sessions will help us learn to be more at ease and confident when surrounded with other vehicles at speed. The hazards and challenges of the street are replaced with other hazards and challenges; the point being that on the track you are still challenging yourself and managing hazards, raising your skill and limitations as you go.

ABS is a bandaid, not a substitute for skilled riding or good planning. However, although I don't have it and don't want it (the one bike I have with it requires much longer stopping distances with it turned on because it kicks in too soon), it's a good thing to have for riders these days who will probably never do a track day or ride a dirt bike.

Sorry, that's not what I meant. What I meant was comparing conditions on a track to conditions on the street. As I mentioned, tracks are always cleaner than the street. The street has the aforementioned ill-maintained vehicles, roadkill, garbage, dumped soft drinks, etc. Tracks have none of those things except in specific cases, in which everyone knows beforehand. (anything else is an edge case not worth mentioning). Rarely does the track have a surprise road condition whereas the street has them daily.

I wholeheartedly agree skills learned at the track make you a better rider on the street, or anywhere and that practice is great, and as many people who want to and have the funds to do so should go to the track as often as they like.

Sorry, that's not what I meant. What I meant was comparing conditions on a track to conditions on the street. As I mentioned, tracks are always cleaner than the street. The street has the aforementioned ill-maintained vehicles, roadkill, garbage, dumped soft drinks, etc. Tracks have none of those things except in specific cases, in which everyone knows beforehand. (anything else is an edge case not worth mentioning). Rarely does the track have a surprise road condition whereas the street has them daily.

I wholeheartedly agree skills learned at the track make you a better rider on the street, or anywhere and that practice is great, and as many people who want to and have the funds to do so should go to the track as often as they like.
Well said that man!
Not meaning to be a party pooper, but according to the poll results, Combined ABS is the daddy.

Although residing the rhetoric that followed you'd be mistaken for thinking Satan invented ABS....

I was wondering when you'd show up!

So what I have learned through the days of lurking on this thread are:

The best World Champion racers that never were are members of this forum.

TT winners generally rely on 'gizmos' to help them, as they lack the ninja skillz of old guys who've learnt to stoppie '5 up' whilst jiggling about swapping seats with their wives.

No matter how good ABS is, it's always better to lock the wheels and slide under the wheels of oncoming traffic, as staying mounted may cause fork compression (eugh!).

I should have been a (car) racing driver, since on an Audi Quattro driving academy at Donnington Park, I was doing the same skid pan thing with half the car on dry Tarmac and the other half on a wet plastic mat. The fuse was pulled and I used cadence braking and counter steering to keep the car straight, over the radio my instructor was told by his boss "now go back and take him up with the fuse out!"
My instructor frustratedly explained that it was. (Brag over).

A lot of people get very reluctant to change or progress in old age. I spent years resisting ABS and slagging it off as 'not applicable to bikes'. I too thought that since I could stoppie ANY bike on all but gravel and used to be an instructor, that ABS was for noobs and nervous Nigels.

I bought my first ABS equipped bike this year, not the same ABS I believe as the new 2014 bike has, but the sophisticated Bosch system from the VFR.

I like it. Might save my life one day. Wouldn't have cried if I didn't have it, but wouldn't be without it.

http://youtu.be/x4eHn1dTpyE

Watch this if you don't 'believe in' Bosch ABS..

Final thought. ABS threads are the new oil threads.

I watched this. What is there to see? In the second clip, the rider simply stands the bike up, which is a deliberate control input. As a World Champion who never was, I can say I've done the move seen in the video hundreds of times.

I expected to see the bike braked whilst still leaned over and I didn't.

I'm familiar with the new ABS that is supposed to work in a turn because of multiple lean angle sensors but if you still have to stand the bike up, what's the point?
This video is much more instructive:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=otATPnT-qAU

At 2:15, I think the guy tells the whole tale: "What you've learned not to do on a motorcycle in 20 years of riding, you can now do. You can brake hard in a turn..."

That's my problem, if you start learning a lot of bad habits, or getting away with stuff you shouldn't be doing, what happens if you get a bike without these advanced features? Well, I think I know the answer:

You crash.