Ethanol vs. Your Engine

[Chapomis_imp]

Crap, didn't know that. I bought a big bottle last fall thinking it would last a while. What happens to it after a year ? Is it still good say at 11 or 13 months ?

[ClassicVW_imp]

It is possible for it to last 13 months but you'd have to store it in a very specific way.

[the Ferret]

The question that concerns us as CB 1100 owners is, will it harm our bikes?

According to Mother Honda who built them and sets the guidelines for what we could or should not use in our bikes, we CAN use up to 10% ethanol without doing harm to our bikes. They are made to run on it. Plain and simple, black and white. It's in the manual, and has been for years. It's not an airplane, or a boat or a lawn mower, it's a motorcycle, and Honda designed it to run on this stuff. In some areas you can't buy "real gas" anymore. In some areas you can't even buy premium anymore, even WITH corn squeezins in it. Many stations around here are now 87 octane 10% ethanol only. Luckily that works in my CB 1100.

Whether it gets better or worse gas mileage, whether it costs more or less to produce, whether it's good for the environment, farmers or the governments bottom line could be argued here indefinitely with no resolution. In fact there is no resolution for the general public. There is nothing we can do about it. Certainly ranting on an internet motorcycle forum isn't going to accomplish anything.

I can't say whether I like it or not. I'm not a mechanical engineer. I'm not a chemist, and I'm not an environmental engineer. I get pretty good mileage on my bike. My bike doesn't stumble or miss on the gas I put in it. It's smooth and quiet and quite powerful actually. It works just fine for me. I neither like it or dislike it. I just use it.

I'm thankful I'm not in California or (gasp) Europe where gas is prohibitively expensive. I'm glad I'm not in post war Italy or Japan where there was such a fuel shortage that they ran their motors on pine resin fuel.I'm glad it's not ww2 era U.S. where you got tickets allowing you to buy limited amounts of fuel. I'm glad that it's not the 1970s anymore when you had to fill up on some days if your lic plate had even numbers and other days if your plate had odd numbers and there were lines around the block waiting for gas. I'm thankful I can freely buy SOMETHING, and as much of that something that I can afford, to put in my tank which my motorcycle will run on.

I know I will never see gas at 25 cents a gallon again. Hope to never see it at $5.00 a gallon again, but not betting against that happening, and I'm betting Europeans would throw a party if their gas went DOWN to $5 a gallon.

I know for sure, at a soon to be 65, I'm not going waste mental energy worrying about whether I'm going to get 3% less mileage with ethanol in my bike (according to Chip Beck, the only one here who actually owns a fuel station I think, and who seems to be a pretty knowledgeable fella). So I only get 204 miles out of a tank instead of 210. Are you kidding? I'm just glad to still be riding.

[Chapomis_imp]

Well said Ferret ! And I'm glad to hear that Mother Honda approves 10% Ethanol. I still have questions about additives. I started using STA-BIL brand fuel additive a years ago to winterize all my 2 cycle motors, mowers chainsaws etc. and what a difference it made. Mowers started on the second pull after sitting for 6 months (long winters here) chainsaws, well they started easier. I added it to my bike tanks in the winter as well, but never during the season until I went into a local marine store to buy some for winterizing and I got talking to the owner and he said that the boat owners added it to every tank. I guess my question is, even after hearing myself think, is, wouldn't it be wise to add it to bikes on every fill or is it not necessary ? We have 10% here and all 3 octanes available.

Also, in an earlier post someone mentioned that the additive is only good for 12 months after its opened. I have 2 bottles of STA-BIL. One is labeled STORAGE which says "can be used for up to 2 years after opening", even has a space to write in the date of opening (thought you would like that) the other bottle I have is labeled "Fuel Stabilizer and Performance Improver" (same brand) and has no such warning as to its expiration date. On the later the instructions say that for storage use 1oz per 2.5 gallons and for "Every Day Protection" use 1oz per 5 gallons. No question here, just FYI, but comments are always appreciated.

[Cormanus]

I was searching Google a few minutes ago to see whether I could discover the model code for the CB1100 EX (SC65?) and came across [url=http://www.hondampe.com.au/repository/about_honda/faq/general.aspx#9]this FAQ on the Honda Australia website.

It says E10 can be used in Honda motorcycles manufactured after 1990, but is not recommended.

Luckily I can still buy fuel without ethanol and do so when I can, but it doesn't peturb me too much if the odd drop has to go into the tank. I'm with you, Ferret.

[the Ferret]

1990? That was 25 years ago. I didn't know they had E10 ethanol 25 years ago lol

Chapomis I use Stabil randomly thru the summer, and by randomly I mean once or twice a summer 1 oz per gallon to a full tank ( 4 1/2 oz total) just to keep my injectors clean. Don't think it's necessary though.

[Chapomis_imp]

And the plot thickens.....

Can I use ethanol fuel in my Honda product?

E10 ethanol fuel can be used with Honda Marine and Power Equipment, and also motorcycles produced after 1990, although it is not recommended.
It's important to know:

1. Ethanol Fuel can damage paintwork - Take care not to spill when refuelling, and promptly wipe off any spill.

2. Rubber Fuel System Parts may become degraded more quickly.

3. Depending on weather, and the condition of the motorcycle, driveability may be adversely affected.

4. For marine applications it's best to speak to the boat builder. There will be issues with certain fuel tanks (aluminium and fibreglass) as well as hoses and other fuel line components.
Use of higher ethanol grade fuels may cause running and/or performance issues. If an engine failure occurs and a higher ethanol grade fuel has been used then repairs will not be covered by the Honda limited warranty.

[the Ferret]

It does thicken I found this ( I'm cooking dinner now but will run out to the bike and get my owners manual after dinner)

Honda engines are certified and designed to run on regular unleaded gasoline.

Gasoline is allowed, by regulation, to contain a variety of additives. The same regulation limits how much of some additives, such as alcohol, can be included in the fuel and still be sold as gasoline. Honda engines are designed for good performance and efficient operation using gasoline containing from 0 to 10% ethanol.

E85 is an alternative fuel. It is not gasoline. It is made by combining 85% ethanol with 15% gasoline. Honda engines are not currently certified or designed to run on E85 or any other alternative fuel.

[the Ferret]

Ok dinner is over and cleaned up, fetched the manual from under the seat

Page 131 under oxygenated fuels:

Bla bla bla

The following blends are EPA-approved and have been approved for use in your motorcycle
* Ethanol ( ethyl alcohol) up to 10% by volume
** Gasoline containing ethanol may be marketed under the name Gasohol.
* Methanol (methyl alcohol) up to 5% by volume. Bla bla bla

If you accidentally fill your fuel tank with an oxygenated fuel containing higher percentages you may experience performance problems bla bla bla

NOTICE Improper use of oxygenated fuel can damage metal, rubber, and plastic parts of your fuel system. oxygenated fuel can also damage paint. Damage caused by spilled fuel is not covered by warranty.

If you notice any undesirable operating symptoms or performance problems, try a different brand of gasoline.

[gossman_imp]

Let's not forget that E-10 gasoline has a maximum shelf life of 3 months. Then the dreaded phase separation starts to set in. So you guys who live up here in the northern climes and have to store your bikes for long stretches in the winter should avoid the stuff like the plague.

Myself, I could give a rat's tail if people think my opinion veers into the political when talking about this stuff. Ethanol mandates exist because of certain political ideologies -- but are we not allowed to analyze or criticize the political genesis of this boondoggle?

My favorite part about the whole thing is that this product, which is supposed to be 'good for the environment' has been proven by numerous studies to actually consume more energy and resources in it's production than conventional gasoline, and cause greater overall emissions to boot!

We must criticize things like this -- either that or continue to have more 'green' madness unquestioningly shoved down our throats regardless of merit or lack thereof...

Have you heard the latest from EPA? Where they are now considering regulating emissions from BBQs? And considering regulating how long you can take a shower in motels? Now there's a bureaucracy that has veered out of control.
Where will it end? Why not fine people for farting too much? It is a methane (greenhouse gas) emission after all. Maybe they will start attaching tail pipe sniffers to our personal tail pipes...

Okay, I'd better check out before this starts to sound like a rant!

Oh, and I should add that where I live we are fortunate in that we can get not only pure premium gas (91 octane) but also regular grade (87 octane) pure gas.

I run ethanol in everything I have, never a problem. As far as phase separation is concerned, fuel sits in my shed in the gas can for that long during the winter without any separation, and in my boat from November till April and no issues either. And this has been for close to 2 decades. The only thing that I have noticed is that it has less energy and things are a little herder to start. And I live in Oregon, a wet and damp climate.