A shot at motorcyclists ...

[Roper_imp]

Just stay locked in your house. You'll be safe. Until they come for you.

[Stichill_imp]

This caught my attention in the op-ed:
Quote:The country’s largest trauma centre (at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre) found that motorcycle crashes cost the Ontario health care system six times more than car crashes do
I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.

Meh. Already got the talk, not from my mom, but from my mother in law. A shut-in who also is upset when I climb a ladder to fix her roof, get under their car to fix it, or get on an airplane to do my job. Because to her, as it is with some people, everything is a threat.

And to her old country way of thinking, the man is the provider in the family and if something bad happened to me, my wife would be penniless. My wife is a doctor, I am a glorified roady and warehouseman.

Basically I don’t ride to her house, and we don’t talk about motorcycles.

My mom? I showed her a picture of my CB when I bought it and she said it looked very neat and pretty. Recently, I took her to lunch, and on the way, I asked if she would mind if I stopped at a motorcycle shop to pick up a part that I had ordered. She wanted to come in with me to browse. She picked up a jacket and felt the armor, and looked at all of the helmets. “You wear all of this safety stuff, right?”

Yes, Mom.

Ok then.

Wow, that's an arresting insight regarding human nature. Some people are risk-averse to the point that it interferes with the enjoyment of all that life has to offer.

[the Ferret]

I'm assuming this sort of thinking is why motorcycle sales are down. The snowflakes are scared to do anything beside play video games and stare at their phones. There are inherent risks in everything we do including walking out the front door. The trick is to be aware of dangers and mitigate their consequences. Common sense really.

And as my dad always said, "If the left one don't get ya, the right one will." So I suppose we should all just have fun doing what we love while we are above ground.

got to chime on on this, as one of the only millennials on the forum. the fact is that, for most people, a motorcycle is a secondary means of transportation. if you buy one, it's a secondary vehicle. most millennials absolutely cannot afford that kind of recreational expenditure. it's simple economics. millennials by and large will not spend money on something they can't afford. it's got zero to do with danger/risk aversion. one of the only reasons i started riding in my 20's was because i broke the system by using my bike as my primary means of transportation and giving up cars. everybody else in my peer group won't touch motorcycles, because they can't justify the expense when they already have a car.

got to chime on on this, as one of the only millennials on the forum. the fact is that, for most people, a motorcycle is a secondary means of transportation. if you buy one, it's a secondary vehicle. most millennials absolutely cannot afford that kind of recreational expenditure. it's simple economics. millennials by and large will not spend money on something they can't afford. it's got zero to do with danger/risk aversion. one of the only reasons i started riding in my 20's was because i broke the system by using my bike as my primary means of transportation and giving up cars. everybody else in my peer group won't touch motorcycles, because they can't justify the expense when they already have a car.
I'm with you on that. My first bike was in '91 after i graduated HS because it was $800 and I could afford it. My car blew up so that's the route I went. You would think then that the millennials would shift TOWARD motorcycles for the $ savings?

There are two big barriers in place that prevent that from happening: 1) perception. the perception is, if you ask around, that motorcycles are, in fact, not cheaper than cars. it's objectively untrue, but it's the perception. people see motorcycles as if they're actually more expensive than owning a car. they think motorcyclists are changing their tires every 4000 miles and constantly having to do engine repairs. they think motorcycles can't handle 6 digit mileage. they think motorcycle gear costs thousands of dollars. they truly believe it's a pure luxury pursuit. people would have to be enlightened and educated about these misconceptions before folks can shift toward buying more motorcycles, and i believe it starts with the manufacturers. they've never really attempted to market their products as transportation solutions, only as fun machines. a shift in marketing toward more practical applications and safety training would make a huge difference.

2) social pressure. people are told all the time about how dangerous motorcycling is, and they're right, but not for the reasons you'd think. it's dangerous because of the lack of training and the culture of carelessness that surrounds it. more measures like mandatory training, mandatory protective gear, and more strict licensure practices would sharply reduce the number of traffic deaths related to motorcycles, and over time people would begin to develop a familiarity with them. the more motorcycles you see on the road, the more accepted it becomes as a mode of transportation, and the more people will be willing to give it a try.

if these two things make a 180 in the near future you could see a huge turnaround for the motorcycle industry, but it's going to take the manufacturers putting up big $$$ for political lobbying and advertising to accomplish them both. This is what my generation needs to be shown the advantages of motorcycles.

There are two big barriers in place that prevent that from happening: 1) perception. the perception is, if you ask around, that motorcycles are, in fact, not cheaper than cars. it's objectively untrue, but it's the perception. people see motorcycles as if they're actually more expensive than owning a car. they think motorcyclists are changing their tires every 4000 miles and constantly having to do engine repairs. they think motorcycles can't handle 6 digit mileage. they think motorcycle gear costs thousands of dollars. they truly believe it's a pure luxury pursuit. people would have to be enlightened and educated about these misconceptions before folks can shift toward buying more motorcycles, and i believe it starts with the manufacturers. they've never really attempted to market their products as transportation solutions, only as fun machines. a shift in marketing toward more practical applications and safety training would make a huge difference.

2) social pressure. people are told all the time about how dangerous motorcycling is, and they're right, but not for the reasons you'd think. it's dangerous because of the lack of training and the culture of carelessness that surrounds it. more measures like mandatory training, mandatory protective gear, and more strict licensure practices would sharply reduce the number of traffic deaths related to motorcycles, and over time people would begin to develop a familiarity with them. the more motorcycles you see on the road, the more accepted it becomes as a mode of transportation, and the more people will be willing to give it a try.

if these two things make a 180 in the near future you could see a huge turnaround for the motorcycle industry, but it's going to take the manufacturers putting up big $$$ for political lobbying and advertising to accomplish them both. This is what my generation needs to be shown the advantages of motorcycles.

Interesting. I spent 17 years in the motorcycle industry and have been riding on the street almost daily for 54 years and I would argue that motorcycles are a lot more expensive to own than cars, a lot more, and that motorcycle gear does cost thousands of dollars (plus its a hassle to get in and out of every time you stop at a gas station or store or show up for work) that it's inconvenient to ride a motorcycle weather wise the majority of the days of the year, and that it's an absoluetly dangerous endeavor, even with experience and training. Imo you have to really WANT to ride a motorcycle or the factors against it would logically keep you from doing so.

[GoldOxide_imp]

This caught my attention in the op-ed:
Quote:The country’s largest trauma centre (at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre) found that motorcycle crashes cost the Ontario health care system six times more than car crashes do
I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.

Meh. Already got the talk, not from my mom, but from my mother in law. A shut-in who also is upset when I climb a ladder to fix her roof, get under their car to fix it, or get on an airplane to do my job. Because to her, as it is with some people, everything is a threat.

And to her old country way of thinking, the man is the provider in the family and if something bad happened to me, my wife would be penniless. My wife is a doctor, I am a glorified roady and warehouseman.

Basically I don’t ride to her house, and we don’t talk about motorcycles.

My mom? I showed her a picture of my CB when I bought it and she said it looked very neat and pretty. Recently, I took her to lunch, and on the way, I asked if she would mind if I stopped at a motorcycle shop to pick up a part that I had ordered. She wanted to come in with me to browse. She picked up a jacket and felt the armor, and looked at all of the helmets. “You wear all of this safety stuff, right?”

Yes, Mom.

Ok then.

Wow, that's an arresting insight regarding human nature. Some people are risk-averse to the point that it interferes with the enjoyment of all that life has to offer.

I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.
Interesting note. To my knowledge, I have never heard a discussion in any of the provinces to police which citizens are conditionally restricted from receiving health service. Fortunately (for the system), many riders never make it to receive the service.

[Stichill_imp]

This caught my attention in the op-ed:
Quote:The country’s largest trauma centre (at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre) found that motorcycle crashes cost the Ontario health care system six times more than car crashes do
I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.

Meh. Already got the talk, not from my mom, but from my mother in law. A shut-in who also is upset when I climb a ladder to fix her roof, get under their car to fix it, or get on an airplane to do my job. Because to her, as it is with some people, everything is a threat.

And to her old country way of thinking, the man is the provider in the family and if something bad happened to me, my wife would be penniless. My wife is a doctor, I am a glorified roady and warehouseman.

Basically I don’t ride to her house, and we don’t talk about motorcycles.

My mom? I showed her a picture of my CB when I bought it and she said it looked very neat and pretty. Recently, I took her to lunch, and on the way, I asked if she would mind if I stopped at a motorcycle shop to pick up a part that I had ordered. She wanted to come in with me to browse. She picked up a jacket and felt the armor, and looked at all of the helmets. “You wear all of this safety stuff, right?”

Yes, Mom.

Ok then.

Wow, that's an arresting insight regarding human nature. Some people are risk-averse to the point that it interferes with the enjoyment of all that life has to offer.

I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.
Interesting note. To my knowledge, I have never heard a discussion in any of the provinces to police which citizens are conditionally restricted from receiving health service. Fortunately (for the system), many riders never make it to receive the service.

The point is, they could. There’s a finite amount of funding provided, and decisions about priorities are made on the basis of maximum social utility vs. any given individual’s well-being or personal freedom. It would be an easy bureaucratic decision to outlaw motorcycles, and reallocate the resultant healthcare savings to better serve the larger population. Bureaucracies restrict personal choice when your choices run counter to their objectives.

[GoldOxide_imp]

This caught my attention in the op-ed:
Quote:The country’s largest trauma centre (at Sunnybrook Health Sciences Centre) found that motorcycle crashes cost the Ontario health care system six times more than car crashes do
I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.

Meh. Already got the talk, not from my mom, but from my mother in law. A shut-in who also is upset when I climb a ladder to fix her roof, get under their car to fix it, or get on an airplane to do my job. Because to her, as it is with some people, everything is a threat.

And to her old country way of thinking, the man is the provider in the family and if something bad happened to me, my wife would be penniless. My wife is a doctor, I am a glorified roady and warehouseman.

Basically I don’t ride to her house, and we don’t talk about motorcycles.

My mom? I showed her a picture of my CB when I bought it and she said it looked very neat and pretty. Recently, I took her to lunch, and on the way, I asked if she would mind if I stopped at a motorcycle shop to pick up a part that I had ordered. She wanted to come in with me to browse. She picked up a jacket and felt the armor, and looked at all of the helmets. “You wear all of this safety stuff, right?”

Yes, Mom.

Ok then.

Wow, that's an arresting insight regarding human nature. Some people are risk-averse to the point that it interferes with the enjoyment of all that life has to offer.

I've always thought that's one of the primary dangers of publicly-funded medicine. Once the government is in control of health care expenditures, they can write rules and regulations that the recipients must abide by. It's only a matter of time until motorcycles are deemed a public health hazard like smoking or alcoholism.
Interesting note. To my knowledge, I have never heard a discussion in any of the provinces to police which citizens are conditionally restricted from receiving health service. Fortunately (for the system), many riders never make it to receive the service.

The point is, they could. There’s a finite amount of funding provided, and decisions about priorities are made on the basis of maximum social utility vs. any given individual’s well-being or personal freedom. It would be an easy bureaucratic decision to outlaw motorcycles, and reallocate the resultant healthcare savings to better serve the larger population. Bureaucracies restrict personal choice when your choices run counter to their objectives.

The point is, they could. There’s a finite amount of funding provided, and decisions about priorities are made on the basis of maximum social utility vs. any given individual’s well-being or personal freedom. It would be an easy bureaucratic decision to outlaw motorcycles, and reallocate the resultant healthcare savings to better serve the larger population. Bureaucracies restrict personal choice when your choices run counter to their objectives.
Indeed that is always a possibility, as with many things in any government. I suppose if something like that were to happen, then a more serious underlying serious social is in play affecting likely everyone and everything.

[Stichill_imp]

We’re already there in western society, unfortunately. It looks like there’s no turning back until we’re all Venezuela.

[Haggard Rider_imp]

In the UK we have quite stringent licensing and testing requirements for riding/driving most things that are powered and use the Queens Highway.

This being so, it has occurred to me that, just as when first being allowed onto the road on a motorbike/scooter/moped, you need first to take and pass your CBT (Compulsory Basic Training) why not make taking a CBT part of the Car Driving Test?

Indeed, I believe motorcycle awareness is now (or soon will be) a specific part of the compulsory Theory examination so at least something is happening, but why not go further?

That way, everyone gets to appreciate what it means to ride a bike (and may actually enjoy it) so may therefore be a little more aware when they graduate to their cages?

Regarding the stat saying motorcycle accidents cost six times more, is this because they treat six times more biker casualties than car casualties, that there are six times more bike accidents requiring hospitalisation than car accidents or that the actual casualties are six times more beaten up so require six times the care, so six times the cost? Just curious.

[misterprofessionality]

I'm assuming this sort of thinking is why motorcycle sales are down. The snowflakes are scared to do anything beside play video games and stare at their phones. There are inherent risks in everything we do including walking out the front door. The trick is to be aware of dangers and mitigate their consequences. Common sense really.

And as my dad always said, "If the left one don't get ya, the right one will." So I suppose we should all just have fun doing what we love while we are above ground.

got to chime on on this, as one of the only millennials on the forum. the fact is that, for most people, a motorcycle is a secondary means of transportation. if you buy one, it's a secondary vehicle. most millennials absolutely cannot afford that kind of recreational expenditure. it's simple economics. millennials by and large will not spend money on something they can't afford. it's got zero to do with danger/risk aversion. one of the only reasons i started riding in my 20's was because i broke the system by using my bike as my primary means of transportation and giving up cars. everybody else in my peer group won't touch motorcycles, because they can't justify the expense when they already have a car.

got to chime on on this, as one of the only millennials on the forum. the fact is that, for most people, a motorcycle is a secondary means of transportation. if you buy one, it's a secondary vehicle. most millennials absolutely cannot afford that kind of recreational expenditure. it's simple economics. millennials by and large will not spend money on something they can't afford. it's got zero to do with danger/risk aversion. one of the only reasons i started riding in my 20's was because i broke the system by using my bike as my primary means of transportation and giving up cars. everybody else in my peer group won't touch motorcycles, because they can't justify the expense when they already have a car.
I'm with you on that. My first bike was in '91 after i graduated HS because it was $800 and I could afford it. My car blew up so that's the route I went. You would think then that the millennials would shift TOWARD motorcycles for the $ savings?

There are two big barriers in place that prevent that from happening: 1) perception. the perception is, if you ask around, that motorcycles are, in fact, not cheaper than cars. it's objectively untrue, but it's the perception. people see motorcycles as if they're actually more expensive than owning a car. they think motorcyclists are changing their tires every 4000 miles and constantly having to do engine repairs. they think motorcycles can't handle 6 digit mileage. they think motorcycle gear costs thousands of dollars. they truly believe it's a pure luxury pursuit. people would have to be enlightened and educated about these misconceptions before folks can shift toward buying more motorcycles, and i believe it starts with the manufacturers. they've never really attempted to market their products as transportation solutions, only as fun machines. a shift in marketing toward more practical applications and safety training would make a huge difference.

2) social pressure. people are told all the time about how dangerous motorcycling is, and they're right, but not for the reasons you'd think. it's dangerous because of the lack of training and the culture of carelessness that surrounds it. more measures like mandatory training, mandatory protective gear, and more strict licensure practices would sharply reduce the number of traffic deaths related to motorcycles, and over time people would begin to develop a familiarity with them. the more motorcycles you see on the road, the more accepted it becomes as a mode of transportation, and the more people will be willing to give it a try.

if these two things make a 180 in the near future you could see a huge turnaround for the motorcycle industry, but it's going to take the manufacturers putting up big $$$ for political lobbying and advertising to accomplish them both. This is what my generation needs to be shown the advantages of motorcycles.

There are two big barriers in place that prevent that from happening: 1) perception. the perception is, if you ask around, that motorcycles are, in fact, not cheaper than cars. it's objectively untrue, but it's the perception. people see motorcycles as if they're actually more expensive than owning a car. they think motorcyclists are changing their tires every 4000 miles and constantly having to do engine repairs. they think motorcycles can't handle 6 digit mileage. they think motorcycle gear costs thousands of dollars. they truly believe it's a pure luxury pursuit. people would have to be enlightened and educated about these misconceptions before folks can shift toward buying more motorcycles, and i believe it starts with the manufacturers. they've never really attempted to market their products as transportation solutions, only as fun machines. a shift in marketing toward more practical applications and safety training would make a huge difference.

2) social pressure. people are told all the time about how dangerous motorcycling is, and they're right, but not for the reasons you'd think. it's dangerous because of the lack of training and the culture of carelessness that surrounds it. more measures like mandatory training, mandatory protective gear, and more strict licensure practices would sharply reduce the number of traffic deaths related to motorcycles, and over time people would begin to develop a familiarity with them. the more motorcycles you see on the road, the more accepted it becomes as a mode of transportation, and the more people will be willing to give it a try.

if these two things make a 180 in the near future you could see a huge turnaround for the motorcycle industry, but it's going to take the manufacturers putting up big $$$ for political lobbying and advertising to accomplish them both. This is what my generation needs to be shown the advantages of motorcycles.

Interesting. I spent 17 years in the motorcycle industry and have been riding on the street almost daily for 54 years and I would argue that motorcycles are a lot more expensive to own than cars, a lot more, and that motorcycle gear does cost thousands of dollars (plus its a hassle to get in and out of every time you stop at a gas station or store or show up for work) that it's inconvenient to ride a motorcycle weather wise the majority of the days of the year, and that it's an absoluetly dangerous endeavor, even with experience and training. Imo you have to really WANT to ride a motorcycle or the factors against it would logically keep you from doing so.

i can't tell you how many times i've heard those talking points. it's ok. it's a commonly held misconception. The core issue is that you're comparing motorcycling at it's peak, to cars used only for practical purposes. that is not a correct comparison. if you (smartly, not frivolously) purchase a motorcycle for $5000, and compare it to a car that is running at the same level of reliability, you will almost certainly find that the car costs at minimum 3x more than the motorcycle. already you can see the enormous savings.

moving on to ownership costs: a common misconception is that motorcycle tires cost a lot more than car tires, this depends on a lot of factors, but on average a motorcyclist that is purchasing and using his tires (smartly, not frivolously) will encounter a cost that is only *slightly* higher than that same car we discussed. Oil changes are subject to a similar misconception. people like to talk about how cars take oil changes at around 6k miles while motorcycles often take them at around 4k miles. this is true, but it's a trifling cost, really barely noticable on the scale of years. but here's the real kicker. here's why motorcycles are definitely, objectively, and without question cheaper to own than cars: INSURANCE. holy cow. the average rider saves thousands of dollars per year on mandatory insurance coverage in the US when compared to the insurance required for car drivers. even when you compare only the bottom basement minimum liability insurances, the motorcycle riders often save over $1000 per year when compared to the owner of a comparable car. an older bike can clear under $100 per year on minimum liability insurance. that's HUGE. any marginal increase in regular tire and oil change costs is eclipsed and forgotten in the face of such huge savings. insurance is really the game changer that proves my point as fact. but that's not all. now we get to talk about the second huge savings pool: GAS. the kind of bike that you would buy for $5000, if you're being smart and not frivolous, gets approx. 70-80mpg on average. the kind of comparable car that you can buy at the same level of reliability is going to be around 30 mpg these days. you can run the math in your local area, and it will be more for some and less for others, but based on average unleaded fuel costs in the USA right now the average rider is going to save around $50 per month on fuel costs. that's HUGE over the course of a year. i've already put $1000 in my pocket for insurance, now i'm going to put another $600 in for gas, on top of the massive savings of being able to buy a vehicle that's 1/3 the total cost....

on to gear: you're stating that gear costs thousands of dollars, but again you're making the same mistake that most people like to make: they're comparing the "best" options, without shopping smartly. the truth is that one can gear up adequately for under $200. that's practically a one-time cost, or at least a once-every-3-years cost.

you can see that in the hands of somebody who is focused on using a motorcycle as a practical means of transportation rather than a recreational machine, owning a motorcycle saves enormous amounts of money over a car. how do i know all this? i'll tell you. because i lived it. when i stopped driving cars over a decade ago i did it for financial reasons, and i was proven SO VERY RIGHT. the extra money I had in my pocket at the end of the first year was so staggering that it changed my life. i could never have pulled myself out of the muck without the savings i garnered from switching to motorcycles. so, rest assured, it's definitely cheaper to live on a motorcycle than a car.

[the Ferret]

Sorry MP have to disagree on all counts. You are not the only one who has lived with just a motorcycle. I did for several years back in the 70's. I think I have a little motorcycle experience I can rely on for my opinion.

but lets compare apple to apples, and we're talking in developed countries not Asia or something.

My 2003 Honda ST 1300 motorcycle cost the same as my 2003 Honda Civic, both cost right at $17,000 dollars. Both were liquid cooled 4 cyl engines with shaft drive and about 125 hp. Both averaged about 40 mpg. Full coverage insurance on the Civic was much cheaper than full coverage insurance on the motorcycle. The Civic required no valve adjustments for the life of the car, the ST a costly valve inspection every 8000 miles. Tires on my Civic went 80,000 miles set. On the ST an average of 10,000 miles. Brakes on the Civic cost $99 and went 120,0000 on the front and I never did replace the rears in 203,000 miles. Set of brake pads for the ST was about $150 and lasted about 20,000 miles. Oil changes were a wash about $30 for each. Spark plugs went 110,000 miles on the Civic, 25,000 miles on the ST. Air cleaner about 50K on the car, 25K on the bike and an air cleaner for the Civic was $13.00 and $37 for the ST. Brake fluid on the ST needed to be replaced every 2 years/12,000 mi at $100 a shot (mostly labor). Never replaced the brake fluid on the Civic. Put 110,000 miles on the ST and was lucky to find someone to buy a motorcycle with that many miles on it for $1000, put 203,000 miles on the Civic and sold it to the first person that came to look at it for $3500.

Yes, you can buy cheap gear but I wouldn't. I don't buy the best/most expensive like Arai or Shoei or Shuberth or Klim or Aerostitch or First Gear even, but buy average/decent stuff because I wear it every day and want it to last a couple of years, HJC and Tourmaster mostly. A decent modular helmet runs about $150, jacket $250, pants $175, boots $200 and gloves $50 and a rainsuit $80..how much is that? $905 so not quite a grand. Didn't have to buy any of that stuff to drive the Civic.

and there is no denying that riding a motorcycle is far more dangerous than driving a car, especially if you count miles driven (statistics don't lie)

and driving a car you don't get wet when it rains, you can run AC in the summer to stay cool, heater in the winter to stay warm, and even turn the radio on to stay entertained. You can carry more luggage, carry more passengers (like a wife and kids) all in relative comfort.

I still say you have to WANT to ride a motorcycle to do so.

Guess we just have to agree to disagree on this one.