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(10-11-2022, 01:31 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: Clutches can have purposes, but when you think about it, Honda sells a lot of DCT bikes that don't have manual clutches and I can tell you from experience that they can be ridden in a sporty manner.
The big difference between a DCT and an electric, or a CVT, all without manual clutches is the ability to upshift or downshift with the DCT just like a manual clutch bike with an up and down quickshifter.
An electric is most like a CVT where there is a direct connect power to drivetrain with no interruptions, although the electric is the most direct.
talking about riding an electric in a sporting manner, they race electrics in a MotoGP format, called MotoE.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RpSdD4wYEAQ
like MotoGP bikes, once rolling there is no need for a manual clutch
Fantastic. Spectators probably don't need earplugs either.
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There are times when being able to modulate a clutch is particularly important, and very noticeable when a clutch handle is absent. I've ridden all of Honda's DCTs except the Rebel 1100, and maneuvering at low speeds, as in splitting lanes or tight parking lot turns are difficult to modulate. The sudden lack of engine braking and the transition on-off of the throttle means you modulate speed with the rear brake.
If an e-bike had perfectly linear braking feel from the motor, then the throttle could also act as a brake as it's closing. Or a left hand brake lever added, then it would be more balanced, rather than just the right hand doing both motions.
With a clutch lever, I'm also able to make smooth normal upshifts and downshifts better than the DCT, without any jerkiness.
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I am able to ride all the Honda DCTs I had as well as all my classic clutch-based motorcycles at slow speeds. The rider must ultimately understand their machine and control it.
In terms of "jerkiness", Honda is currently doing recalls with clutch-based motorcycles (several models) and model year 202x DCT-based models for an ECU firmware update to address this. This had everything to do with cable-free throttle management whether or not it was manual clutch control or DCT-based.
Electric motorcycles will be perfected to meet a variety of riding preferences. It is all motion control system engineering. The customer will just continuously feedback their requirements to improve the product.
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(10-11-2022, 02:13 AM)GoldOxide_imp Wrote: I am able to ride all the Honda DCTs I had as well as all my classic clutch-based motorcycles at slow speeds. The rider must ultimately understand their machine and control it.
In terms of "jerkiness", Honda is currently doing recalls with clutch-based motorcycles (several models) and model year 202x DCT-based models for an ECU firmware update to address this. This had everything to do with cable-free throttle management whether or not it was manual clutch control or DCT-based.
Electric motorcycles will be perfected to meet a variety of riding preferences. It is all motion control system engineering. The customer will just continuously feedback their requirements to improve the product.
Thank you and finally 
Gonna wait patently and see if any long term improvement ...or it will need a dual clutch pack replacement..++ ?
Honda is not keen and very stubborn to admit malfunctions...just saying.
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When the throttle is let off on a DCT, as it slows to a walking pace, it will suddenly disengage the engine braking by disengaging the clutch. It's this deficiency that has to be compensated for. You have to use the brake, usually the rear brake, just as you're almost ready to put your foot down. A left-side brake lever would help in this case, if you could un-learn normal clutch response.
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(10-11-2022, 02:54 AM)peterbaron_imp Wrote: (10-11-2022, 02:13 AM)GoldOxide_imp Wrote: I am able to ride all the Honda DCTs I had as well as all my classic clutch-based motorcycles at slow speeds. The rider must ultimately understand their machine and control it.
In terms of "jerkiness", Honda is currently doing recalls with clutch-based motorcycles (several models) and model year 202x DCT-based models for an ECU firmware update to address this. This had everything to do with cable-free throttle management whether or not it was manual clutch control or DCT-based.
Electric motorcycles will be perfected to meet a variety of riding preferences. It is all motion control system engineering. The customer will just continuously feedback their requirements to improve the product.
Thank you and finally
Gonna wait patently and see if any long term improvement ...or it will need a dual clutch pack replacement..++ ?
Honda is not keen and very stubborn to admit malfunctions...just saying.
Thank you and finally
Gonna wait patently and see if any long term improvement ...or it will need a dual clutch pack replacement..++ ?
Honda is not keen and very stubborn to admit malfunctions...just saying.
[url=http://cb1100forum.com/forum/member.php?action=profile&uid=3454]PB - not sure if you read it well, but Honda is having issues with late model ECU firmware - whether on manual or DCT bikes. It is about throttle management. Gearbox is not relevant. In fact, some manual gearbox owners are afraid of their cable-free throttle.
In terms of DCT durability, some owners in Germany are reporting over 400,000 kms usage without issue.
(10-11-2022, 03:17 AM)pekingduck_imp Wrote: When the throttle is let off on a DCT, as it slows to a walking pace, it will suddenly disengage the engine braking by disengaging the clutch. It's this deficiency that has to be compensated for. You have to use the brake, usually the rear brake, just as you're almost ready to put your foot down. A left-side brake lever would help in this case, if you could un-learn normal clutch response.
There is no "sudden" disengagement. You are thinking maybe CVT scooter behaviour. In addition, if you are not using the rear brake to modulate a smooth stop on any motorcycle, then be careful.
Finally, I have not experienced nor read about any experienced rider "unlearning" clutch management. If people are suggesting this, maybe they should re-evaluate their own riding abilities and the safety of others on public roads.
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(10-11-2022, 03:29 AM)GoldOxide_imp Wrote: (10-11-2022, 02:54 AM)peterbaron_imp Wrote: (10-11-2022, 02:13 AM)GoldOxide_imp Wrote: I am able to ride all the Honda DCTs I had as well as all my classic clutch-based motorcycles at slow speeds. The rider must ultimately understand their machine and control it.
In terms of "jerkiness", Honda is currently doing recalls with clutch-based motorcycles (several models) and model year 202x DCT-based models for an ECU firmware update to address this. This had everything to do with cable-free throttle management whether or not it was manual clutch control or DCT-based.
Electric motorcycles will be perfected to meet a variety of riding preferences. It is all motion control system engineering. The customer will just continuously feedback their requirements to improve the product.
Thank you and finally
Gonna wait patently and see if any long term improvement ...or it will need a dual clutch pack replacement..++ ?
Honda is not keen and very stubborn to admit malfunctions...just saying.
Thank you and finally
Gonna wait patently and see if any long term improvement ...or it will need a dual clutch pack replacement..++ ?
Honda is not keen and very stubborn to admit malfunctions...just saying.
[url=http://cb1100forum.com/forum/member.php?action=profile&uid=3454]PB - not sure if you read it well, but Honda is having issues with late model ECU firmware - whether on manual or DCT bikes. It is about throttle management. Gearbox is not relevant. In fact, some manual gearbox owners are afraid of their cable-free throttle.
In terms of DCT durability, some owners in Germany are reporting over 400,000 kms usage without issue.
(10-11-2022, 03:17 AM)pekingduck_imp Wrote: When the throttle is let off on a DCT, as it slows to a walking pace, it will suddenly disengage the engine braking by disengaging the clutch. It's this deficiency that has to be compensated for. You have to use the brake, usually the rear brake, just as you're almost ready to put your foot down. A left-side brake lever would help in this case, if you could un-learn normal clutch response.
There is no "sudden" disengagement. You are thinking maybe CVT scooter behaviour. In addition, if you are not using the rear brake to modulate a smooth stop on any motorcycle, then be careful.
Finally, I have not experienced nor read about any experienced rider "unlearning" clutch management. If people are suggesting this, maybe they should re-evaluate their own riding abilities and the safety of others on public roads.
Thank you and finally
Gonna wait patently and see if any long term improvement ...or it will need a dual clutch pack replacement..++ ?
Honda is not keen and very stubborn to admit malfunctions...just saying.
[url=http://cb1100forum.com/forum/member.php?action=profile&uid=3454]PB - not sure if you read it well, but Honda is having issues with late model ECU firmware - whether on manual or DCT bikes. It is about throttle management. Gearbox is not relevant. In fact, some manual gearbox owners are afraid of their cable-free throttle.
In terms of DCT durability, some owners in Germany are reporting over 400,000 kms usage without issue.
Will wait anyhow. 
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(10-11-2022, 03:37 AM)peterbaron_imp Wrote: (10-11-2022, 03:29 AM)GoldOxide_imp Wrote: (10-11-2022, 02:54 AM)peterbaron_imp Wrote: (10-11-2022, 02:13 AM)GoldOxide_imp Wrote: I am able to ride all the Honda DCTs I had as well as all my classic clutch-based motorcycles at slow speeds. The rider must ultimately understand their machine and control it.
In terms of "jerkiness", Honda is currently doing recalls with clutch-based motorcycles (several models) and model year 202x DCT-based models for an ECU firmware update to address this. This had everything to do with cable-free throttle management whether or not it was manual clutch control or DCT-based.
Electric motorcycles will be perfected to meet a variety of riding preferences. It is all motion control system engineering. The customer will just continuously feedback their requirements to improve the product.
Thank you and finally
Gonna wait patently and see if any long term improvement ...or it will need a dual clutch pack replacement..++ ?
Honda is not keen and very stubborn to admit malfunctions...just saying.
Thank you and finally
Gonna wait patently and see if any long term improvement ...or it will need a dual clutch pack replacement..++ ?
Honda is not keen and very stubborn to admit malfunctions...just saying.
[url=http://cb1100forum.com/forum/member.php?action=profile&uid=3454]PB - not sure if you read it well, but Honda is having issues with late model ECU firmware - whether on manual or DCT bikes. It is about throttle management. Gearbox is not relevant. In fact, some manual gearbox owners are afraid of their cable-free throttle.
In terms of DCT durability, some owners in Germany are reporting over 400,000 kms usage without issue.
(10-11-2022, 03:17 AM)pekingduck_imp Wrote: When the throttle is let off on a DCT, as it slows to a walking pace, it will suddenly disengage the engine braking by disengaging the clutch. It's this deficiency that has to be compensated for. You have to use the brake, usually the rear brake, just as you're almost ready to put your foot down. A left-side brake lever would help in this case, if you could un-learn normal clutch response.
There is no "sudden" disengagement. You are thinking maybe CVT scooter behaviour. In addition, if you are not using the rear brake to modulate a smooth stop on any motorcycle, then be careful.
Finally, I have not experienced nor read about any experienced rider "unlearning" clutch management. If people are suggesting this, maybe they should re-evaluate their own riding abilities and the safety of others on public roads.
Thank you and finally
Gonna wait patently and see if any long term improvement ...or it will need a dual clutch pack replacement..++ ?
Honda is not keen and very stubborn to admit malfunctions...just saying.
[url=http://cb1100forum.com/forum/member.php?action=profile&uid=3454]PB - not sure if you read it well, but Honda is having issues with late model ECU firmware - whether on manual or DCT bikes. It is about throttle management. Gearbox is not relevant. In fact, some manual gearbox owners are afraid of their cable-free throttle.
In terms of DCT durability, some owners in Germany are reporting over 400,000 kms usage without issue.
Will wait anyhow.
Wait for what [url=http://cb1100forum.com/forum/member.php?action=profile&uid=3454]PB? An electric motorcycle like the Zero SR/F?
Cost of entry seems prohibitive to most riders.
All else is time-testing technology that will eventually be legislated out.
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(10-11-2022, 03:46 AM)GoldOxide_imp Wrote: (10-11-2022, 03:37 AM)peterbaron_imp Wrote: (10-11-2022, 03:29 AM)GoldOxide_imp Wrote: (10-11-2022, 02:54 AM)peterbaron_imp Wrote: (10-11-2022, 02:13 AM)GoldOxide_imp Wrote: I am able to ride all the Honda DCTs I had as well as all my classic clutch-based motorcycles at slow speeds. The rider must ultimately understand their machine and control it.
In terms of "jerkiness", Honda is currently doing recalls with clutch-based motorcycles (several models) and model year 202x DCT-based models for an ECU firmware update to address this. This had everything to do with cable-free throttle management whether or not it was manual clutch control or DCT-based.
Electric motorcycles will be perfected to meet a variety of riding preferences. It is all motion control system engineering. The customer will just continuously feedback their requirements to improve the product.
Thank you and finally
Gonna wait patently and see if any long term improvement ...or it will need a dual clutch pack replacement..++ ?
Honda is not keen and very stubborn to admit malfunctions...just saying.
Thank you and finally
Gonna wait patently and see if any long term improvement ...or it will need a dual clutch pack replacement..++ ?
Honda is not keen and very stubborn to admit malfunctions...just saying.
[url=http://cb1100forum.com/forum/member.php?action=profile&uid=3454]PB - not sure if you read it well, but Honda is having issues with late model ECU firmware - whether on manual or DCT bikes. It is about throttle management. Gearbox is not relevant. In fact, some manual gearbox owners are afraid of their cable-free throttle.
In terms of DCT durability, some owners in Germany are reporting over 400,000 kms usage without issue.
(10-11-2022, 03:17 AM)pekingduck_imp Wrote: When the throttle is let off on a DCT, as it slows to a walking pace, it will suddenly disengage the engine braking by disengaging the clutch. It's this deficiency that has to be compensated for. You have to use the brake, usually the rear brake, just as you're almost ready to put your foot down. A left-side brake lever would help in this case, if you could un-learn normal clutch response.
There is no "sudden" disengagement. You are thinking maybe CVT scooter behaviour. In addition, if you are not using the rear brake to modulate a smooth stop on any motorcycle, then be careful.
Finally, I have not experienced nor read about any experienced rider "unlearning" clutch management. If people are suggesting this, maybe they should re-evaluate their own riding abilities and the safety of others on public roads.
Thank you and finally
Gonna wait patently and see if any long term improvement ...or it will need a dual clutch pack replacement..++ ?
Honda is not keen and very stubborn to admit malfunctions...just saying.
[url=http://cb1100forum.com/forum/member.php?action=profile&uid=3454]PB - not sure if you read it well, but Honda is having issues with late model ECU firmware - whether on manual or DCT bikes. It is about throttle management. Gearbox is not relevant. In fact, some manual gearbox owners are afraid of their cable-free throttle.
In terms of DCT durability, some owners in Germany are reporting over 400,000 kms usage without issue.
Will wait anyhow.
Wait for what [url=http://cb1100forum.com/forum/member.php?action=profile&uid=3454]PB? An electric motorcycle like the Zero SR/F?
Cost of entry seems prohibitive to most riders.
All else is time-testing technology that will eventually be legislated out.
That won't be true forever. I think the EV Bike market as a whole is just holding its breath for the big 4 to enter the market. as soon as they do it's going to be EVs everywhere.
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Eventually Honda and probably Yamaha will come out with full size electric motorcycles which I imagine will cost less than a Zero. They are learning quite a bit about electrics with their electric scooter lines in Asia. It's only a matter of time. Honda says it will have 10 electrics in the line-up in 2025, 4 of which will come to the states, but they won't be full size bikes. The bikes are not the problem, Honda can build the bikes, it's the batteries which are the problem.
If you have ridden a Maxi scooter (I owned 2 of them..Yamaha Majesty 400's) there is no issue learning that the left handlebar lever is the rear brake. I wish my NC had that set up leaving both feet free. They have that set up on some European DCT motorcycles, and some in the US have bought and adapted that system to their personal bikes, but as I understand it, by law, "motorcycles" in the US can only have the clutch blade on the left handlebar, and not a brake lever. Were I more mechanical I would buy the parts and do the conversion too.
After a year and real close to 20,000 miles on my 750 DCT, slow speed handling hasn't been an issue for a long time. I can literally walk my DCT across the driveway at 1 mph as shown on the speedo. Can't do that on my CB 1100. I also have absolutely no issue riding my DCT on one day and the manual clutch CB the next.
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