01-29-2018, 05:26 AM
Front suspension on the 2017 CB1100 is possibly better. Rear, doubtful, but good enough. Call it even. Kawi's is adjustable.
Not the suspension, but the chassis and weight, quick response of the engine, very low gearing, and so on. The Kawasaki is going to be the quicker, faster bike every time.
The Honda will be the more stable and forgiving, every time.
Just to be clear for the record, it was VLJ who described those things, and I commented on them.
Nope, that wasn't me. Pitched From The Seat Guy is ohiorider, who complained that he finally gave up on his older CB, after never coming to terms with it. He's also The Front Suspension Destroys My Wrists Guy.
I'm looking for clarity; you simply raised those issues as a discussion point in your earlier post; Guth briefly mentioned them, after I repeated them, in a way that could possibly suggest I was saying those were problems with a particular bike.
So we want to be clear, those are general issues to be considered when designing suspension and may or may not be a problem with any particular bike or rider. That was the context all along.
I have reviewed quite a few data acquisition charts from telemetry-equipped bikes and these control inputs happen very smoothly. Mid-turn at a 60+ degree lean angle, you can't even breathe, hardly, almost anything will cause the bike to lose traction. And the traction control on those bikes at that level is not anything like what one would find on even a production superbike, like my ZX-10R.
At the least level of intervention it will let the front wheel loft a few inches when it comes into the power, and will allow just a little bit of rear wheel spin.
At the race level, on huge slicks with massive amounts of traction, run at around 21 psi for the rear tire. Even less sometimes. The traction control is nowhere near as invasive as on a street superbike; how y'all think Marquez and company are leaving those long rear wheel black marks? That's how those guys steer, with some wheel spin. Sometimes you can see it very obviously, but most of the time you can't. The rear tire is just starting to break away, and the rider does have some control, quite a lot, actually.
There is no safety nanny involved with the brakes on a MotoGP bike or WSBK bike, or any racebike. Racebikes don't have ABS nor anything to prevent wheel lockup. That's why those guys get paid the big Euros.
Those riders go as fast as they do in the corners because they have the slowest hands. Smooth, measured, calculated, practiced. In fact I would suggest that the Ferret's throttle hand and brake input are VERY similar to those of the best racers.
How the heck could he have survived riding almost every day of the year on icy, wet, dirty roads? Seriously. Smooth is what gets you home.
I rode my ZX-10R on ice on one ride, no ABS, but it was interesting to notice how the TC worked really well. Of course one cannot lean a bike really at all on ice. One gets used to how the TC works on clean, dry pavement and it is fun to notice it working. Only at extremes do the cylinders start to cut, otherwise it's not even noticeable, it's all software based on comparative wheel speeds and lean angle.
Not the suspension, but the chassis and weight, quick response of the engine, very low gearing, and so on. The Kawasaki is going to be the quicker, faster bike every time.
The Honda will be the more stable and forgiving, every time.
(01-29-2018, 03:36 AM)VLJ_imp Wrote: Guth, I'm sure that the previous generation CBs also had excellent throttle response. From Day One, testers have noted the CB's smooth, glitch-free fueling. With the chain properly adjusted, I'm guessing your '13 also exhibits very little drive lash. Overall, I can easily picture your experiences on your CB mirroring mine, although I have no doubt that my suspension is plusher, and the addition of the sixth gear has to be a benefit.
alprider, you just described one circumstance in which I would fully expect to drag something on my CB: tight, uphill, off-camber, bumpy switchbacks that practically turn back on themselves. It's very easy to drag parts on those sorts of 1st-gear switchbacks when riding a long-wheelbase, low-slung bike.
mickey, you know that response post I made in MCD's Z900RS thread, in which I summed up the differences between the CB and Z900RS? I'm not so sure now that I would automatically give the handling and braking nods to the Z900RS. If the Kawi's suspension isn't as plush as the CB's and its fueling more glitchy, I can see the 900RS's handling bearing the brunt of those issues. In terms of the brakes, I don't see where the CB's could be any better, so I'm not willing to just hand the decision there to the Kawi, radial-mounted calipers notwithstanding. Also, while the CB does buzz a bit between 3,500 and 4,900, the Kawi supposedly suffers from fairly noticeable buzzing higher up on the tach, so perhaps it's no smoother overall than the CB.
I'm certain the Kawi accelerates harder and is more flickable. It weighs ninety fewer lbs and makes about ten more horsepower. At this point, however, those are the only nods I'm wiling to give the Kawi over the CB, unless and until I ride one and can confirm that it handles and brakes better than the Honda, in addition to being smoother.
I have my doubts.
Ulvetanna Wrote:Guth Wrote:I've never been pitched from my seat or had the bike upset in ways that Ulvetanna has mentioned for that matter.
Just to be clear for the record, it was VLJ who described those things, and I commented on them.
Nope, that wasn't me. Pitched From The Seat Guy is ohiorider, who complained that he finally gave up on his older CB, after never coming to terms with it. He's also The Front Suspension Destroys My Wrists Guy.
Just to be clear for the record, it was VLJ who described those things, and I commented on them.
Nope, that wasn't me. Pitched From The Seat Guy is ohiorider, who complained that he finally gave up on his older CB, after never coming to terms with it. He's also The Front Suspension Destroys My Wrists Guy.
I'm looking for clarity; you simply raised those issues as a discussion point in your earlier post; Guth briefly mentioned them, after I repeated them, in a way that could possibly suggest I was saying those were problems with a particular bike.
So we want to be clear, those are general issues to be considered when designing suspension and may or may not be a problem with any particular bike or rider. That was the context all along.
(01-29-2018, 05:01 AM)VLJ_imp Wrote: Guth, you can also guess that Lorenzo and Pedrosa brake and snap the throttle open a thousand times more forcefully than mickey does, or than anyone does on the street. Also, their bikes have the world's best safety nannies, allowing those guys to whack the throttle open and closed, snap off four downshifts, and slam on the brakes in a manner that would make most people highside their trusty streetbikes into oblivion.Untrue. None of those guys snap the throttle on or off. If one watches the telemetry graph as any of those riders exit a turn, they will see the bar display smoothly increase for both throttle opening or brake pressure.
At the level of aggression with which MotoGP guys ride, all such analogies and comparisons to street riding are moot. It's not even apples to asparagus.
I have reviewed quite a few data acquisition charts from telemetry-equipped bikes and these control inputs happen very smoothly. Mid-turn at a 60+ degree lean angle, you can't even breathe, hardly, almost anything will cause the bike to lose traction. And the traction control on those bikes at that level is not anything like what one would find on even a production superbike, like my ZX-10R.
At the least level of intervention it will let the front wheel loft a few inches when it comes into the power, and will allow just a little bit of rear wheel spin.
At the race level, on huge slicks with massive amounts of traction, run at around 21 psi for the rear tire. Even less sometimes. The traction control is nowhere near as invasive as on a street superbike; how y'all think Marquez and company are leaving those long rear wheel black marks? That's how those guys steer, with some wheel spin. Sometimes you can see it very obviously, but most of the time you can't. The rear tire is just starting to break away, and the rider does have some control, quite a lot, actually.
There is no safety nanny involved with the brakes on a MotoGP bike or WSBK bike, or any racebike. Racebikes don't have ABS nor anything to prevent wheel lockup. That's why those guys get paid the big Euros.
Those riders go as fast as they do in the corners because they have the slowest hands. Smooth, measured, calculated, practiced. In fact I would suggest that the Ferret's throttle hand and brake input are VERY similar to those of the best racers.
How the heck could he have survived riding almost every day of the year on icy, wet, dirty roads? Seriously. Smooth is what gets you home.
I rode my ZX-10R on ice on one ride, no ABS, but it was interesting to notice how the TC worked really well. Of course one cannot lean a bike really at all on ice. One gets used to how the TC works on clean, dry pavement and it is fun to notice it working. Only at extremes do the cylinders start to cut, otherwise it's not even noticeable, it's all software based on comparative wheel speeds and lean angle.