Will the CB1100 be the last of it's kind in America?

[Siggy Javotnik_imp]

Gentlemen,

Reading this months Cycle World magazine about the new KTM 1290 Super Adventure I am starting to feel like a real dinosaur. With a glowing review that touts it as maybe the best all around motorcycle that has ever been built, how could I not like it?? But I don't like it at all. It's styled like a two wheeled Star Wars storm trooper uniform stuffed inside a crushed set of monkey bars and incorporating every conceivable combination of odd angles and curved surfaces. It assaults the eyes from any angle. Active suspension front and rear with several different modes, accelerometer, lean angle sensors, wheelie control, ride by wire, and an engine with an electronics suite that can deliver power like a Superbike or a scooter depending upon which mode the rider selects after "toggling through all of the options".

Uh, OK. This is what sells today. And it repels me. The CB1100 has been a sales failure in America and I don't think another maker (or Honda) is going to try it again. It looks like riders like me, and bikes like the CB11, are relics. I use to be hip...what happened?

Chip

GRANDPA SIMPSON: I used to be "with it," but then they changed what "it" was. Now what I'm "with" isn't "it" and what's "it" seems weird and scary...

[DJS_imp]

Gentlemen,

Reading this months Cycle World magazine about the new KTM 1290 Super Adventure I am starting to feel like a real dinosaur. With a glowing review that touts it as maybe the best all around motorcycle that has ever been built, how could I not like it?? But I don't like it at all. It's styled like a two wheeled Star Wars storm trooper uniform stuffed inside a crushed set of monkey bars and incorporating every conceivable combination of odd angles and curved surfaces. It assaults the eyes from any angle. Active suspension front and rear with several different modes, accelerometer, lean angle sensors, wheelie control, ride by wire, and an engine with an electronics suite that can deliver power like a Superbike or a scooter depending upon which mode the rider selects after "toggling through all of the options".

Uh, OK. This is what sells today. And it repels me. The CB1100 has been a sales failure in America and I don't think another maker (or Honda) is going to try it again. It looks like riders like me, and bikes like the CB11, are relics. I use to be hip...what happened?

Chip

GRANDPA SIMPSON: I used to be "with it," but then they changed what "it" was. Now what I'm "with" isn't "it" and what's "it" seems weird and scary...

GRANDPA SIMPSON: I used to be "with it," but then they changed what "it" was. Now what I'm "with" isn't "it" and what's "it" seems weird and scary...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LV0wTtiJygY

[jwoods986_imp]

The bike seems to only appeal to those who already owned or liked the CB750 from back in the day. I don't think it's the be all end all bike, but it is a very very well done retro bike.

I personally don't think standards or UJM's will go away, I just think their appeal is in a slump right now. This may be a great time for someone to get some collector's items. I plan to buy at least another 2013 but will wait until the price drops a little more.

Is this low enough for you? http://frederick.craigslist.org/mcd/4985088550.html

[thessler3_imp]

I do not think air-cooled bikes are dead in the US or anywhere else. I read a lot of historical technical journals on engines, including WWII aircraft engines. Water cooled engines are capable of delivering 3% more power than air-cooled engines. I will willingly give up 3% of power for the simplicity of air cooling. Many riders still want air-cooled motors and they will get them. The manufacturers build what sells, even if they sometimes make models that do not sell very well, they keep trying.

[ClassicVW_imp]

I do not think air-cooled bikes are dead in the US or anywhere else. I read a lot of historical technical journals on engines, including WWII aircraft engines. Water cooled engines are capable of delivering 3% more power than air-cooled engines. I will willingly give up 3% of power for the simplicity of air cooling. Many riders still want air-cooled motors and they will get them. The manufacturers build what sells, even if they sometimes make models that do not sell very well, they keep trying.

Its not the power differential the manufacturers are concerned with, its the year by year ever toughening worldwide emissions rules that is the driving force moving everyone to water cooling.

[ChipBeck_imp]

I do not think air-cooled bikes are dead in the US or anywhere else. I read a lot of historical technical journals on engines, including WWII aircraft engines. Water cooled engines are capable of delivering 3% more power than air-cooled engines. I will willingly give up 3% of power for the simplicity of air cooling. Many riders still want air-cooled motors and they will get them. The manufacturers build what sells, even if they sometimes make models that do not sell very well, they keep trying.

Gentlemen,

Perhaps 70 years ago as regards aircraft engines that are operated at fairly constant power levels and can rely upon a steady 250 MPH flow of cooling air that is true. But that formula doesn't apply to motorcycles today. Modern motorcycle engines capable of passing EPA emissions can probably produce 100% more power if they are water cooled. Air cooled engines must be in a mild state of tune to pass emissions today. This is why the CB11 is not a 750. Even at 1130cc it still produces only 87 horsepower. The new Yamaha R-1 has a smaller water cooled engine that puts out 200 horsepower. That's a tad more than 3%. Because the CB11 had air cooling as a design feature and knowing it needed to be a solid performer despite the required mild state of tune, displacement was bumped way up to 1130cc.

As far as air cooled bikes continuing to be produced I agree with you there but I think they will be small displacement, low power bikes like the Honda Grom and other lightweights. Even small displacement dirt bikes are water cooled today.

Harley Davidson will hang on to it in mildly tuned big twins as long as they can but I don't see another 4 cylinder big bore air cooled street bike after our CB's. I hope I'm wrong.

Chip

[rboe]

The R1 produces more power for many reasons that have little to do with liquid cooling. What they do produces so much waste heat they must liquid cool it so it won't melt.

It's also designed for a different market and mission. Like comparing a taxi to an F1 race car.

But I agree, big inline fours are on the way out with air cooling.

[JustPassinThru_imp]

Hmmm. Well, I'm in a college town...and mostly I'm ignored. There are a few bikers out and about...in cages or carts (pickups)...I can spot them because they give me a covert eye.

But in a town with mostly young people (who know little of old motorcycles) I don't think too many are impressed. It's not a Transformers ride...it's just one of those boring old bikes like the ones Dad rode. A boring old fart on it, like Dad.

Occasionally a Harley guy (sometimes with club colors, which may or may not be legit - seems we've become a pass-through point for some MC runs) will try stop-light dragging on the main, five-lane road. It's kinda fun...he sizing me, with my ATGATT green and grey-reflective...cruiserface scowl...light changes and he lets me hear the power of those open pipes. So I run it up, easy, to 2nd...and OPEN IT UP. I can hit 55 in seemingly the blink of an eye...5700 rpms. He's in the dust...scowl intact...you can almost hear him, "I intended that."

Other'n that...really, not much interest. In a world where college kids have BMWs, it takes a lot to wow the passers-by.

Very telling. Why would you care who gives a darn about what you are riding? Or who eyeballs the bike? Or their age bracket? Who are you trying to "Wow"? Just asking.

Not at all. I'm just an observer of human foibiles.

If I cared what people think, I'd have bought a poser bike.

[ChipBeck_imp]

The R1 produces more power for many reasons that have little to do with liquid cooling. What they do produces so much waste heat they must liquid cool it so it won't melt.

It's also designed for a different market and mission. Like comparing a taxi to an F1 race car.

But I agree, big inline fours are on the way out with air cooling.

Rboe,

Exactly. I was not saying that liquid cooling produces twice the power. Liquid cooling produces no power and the water pump actually uses some. What I was saying is that power generation creates heat. Double the power and you more than double heat generation. A taxi cab and a race car are the same in this regard. They both must have sufficient cooling capacity to deal with the heat generated by whatever power level they produce.

The water cooled system in that R-1 is capable of keeping temperatures in check in an engine capable of generating 200 hp. What I'm saying is that the same exact engine that was air-cooled and detuned by 3% would not even come close to being able to keep temps in check. The motor would quickly self destruct. Meeting today's lean burn, catalyst equipped, emissions I think maybe 100 hp would be the limit for an air cooled 1000cc street bike. 120 hp tops but the heads and cylinder cooling fins would have to be massive and heavy.

Water cooling allows much higher power levels than air cooling. And we're not talking 3%, I'd say closer to 100%. Cheers.

Chip

[rboe]

Oil cooling will get you some relief. My Griso is oil/air cooled (about 92hp at the rear wheel) and has some good sized oil journals for the head.

I suspect that materials scientists could come up with a long lasting air cooled high output motor (now could we afford it is another matter!) if the market demanded that. Remember when the EPA first started setting standards back in the 70's and they had pollution pumps and all sorts of ugly stuff attached to engine and performance went into the basement? That lasted what; ten years or so? Then with EFI and computers the plumbing became much simpler, engines became a lot more efficient (and now you have to been a computer expert as well as a wrench to work on the car) and power came back. Along with pony cars. And performance.

Granted they are water cooled but save for the Corsair and VW most were water cooled before.

So in that light; perhaps air cooled is not off the list yet.