Lean and Mean

[The Spaceman_imp]

In another thread someone posted "it's roughest about 1800-2K rpm." This morning I took a ride to see what my bike was like at those RPMs.

The first thing I noticed is that this is not a rev range I'd cruise at on this bike. I really had to work at it to keep the engine at that speed. My '77 Low Rider would putt along around 2k But, the HD's "tractor engine" flywheel was about 40lbs, the stroke was almost 2X the bore; that engine was built for torque vs. HP. The Honda will ride along at around a 2k engine speed with no noticeable surging etc., but other than this test I wouldn't ride it that way. It felt like I was trying to "lug" the engine. Normally I'd just be winding the revs right past 2-3k to the next shift point. Steady-speed RPMs are usually 3K plus.

If you haven't done it, next time you're out on the bike try riding at 1,500 - 2,000 RPM and see what you think. It'll do it in any gear, but it sure feels weird to me.

[dave]

Within the third thread I read here this morning, two different people referred to the CB's fueling as "lean". And one added "probably due to emissions regs."

Perhaps its a exception, but my CB has never had the slightest issue with fueling with the OEM setup. Its the smoothest running bike I've ever ridden, and I've ridden a LOT of bikes. Honda has published a great amount if detail on the effort they took to produce a linear power delivery for this bike.

Did/does your bike run poorly in the lower RPM range as delivered? Was it bad enough you felt modifying the FI system at your expense was necessary? Did you discuss the issue with your Honda service dept? If so, what did they say about it?

I've had a problem with my 2014 CB1100 running poorly from the day I bought it. There's a post I started here on this subject somewhere a few months ago. I took the bike back to the dealer the very first opportunity that I had, and it's been back four times now. My bike runs poorly below 3,000 RPM; it's especially bad at 2,000 - 3,000 range. I took my bike to an independent mechanic who diagnosed my the problem as the throttle bodies were not properly synchronized - I posted a picture to this forum of the electronic vacuum gauge readout. I did not have the throttle bodies synchronized at the independent mechanic because the bike was brand-new and I wanted Honda to fix it. The dealership simply rode my bike and stated that it ran "fine"; there was no problem. The second and third times I returned it to the dealer they performed a diagnostic evaluation, and of course everything was "fine". I have been and continue to be in contact with the factory now. The fourth visit to the shop was to have a "factory representative" test ride my bike and provide his "expert" opinion - same reply - the bike runs "fine". I cannot go into all the details of my dealings with Honda but the battle continues. I asked them repeatedly "why don't you just perform a vacuum test yourself so that you can confirm my findings"? They told me the throttle bodies are factory set and cannot be adjusted (this is not true). I told them if the throttle bodies cannot be adjusted then they needed to replace the defective ones on my bike - they had no reply for this. After multiple phone conversations with the factory I have convinced them to perform their own vacuum test (can you believe they initially told me that they didn't know how to perform a vacuum test on this bike!!). Right now I am waiting for the "official factory representative" to visit my dealer so that he can witness the results of the vacuum test. I haven't read all of the posts you guys have added on this subject because my wife if waiting for me to visit our relatives now (I will read them later), but I know that absolutely, without a doubt, my bike does not run well below 3,000 RPM. You can hear it mis-firing! It is extremely annoying to ride around town when you travel from one stop light to the next at low RPM, and very light loads. Also, on the back roads when you allow the RPM to drop below 3,000 in the corners the problem immediately becomes obvious. As soon as the RPM increases above 3,000 it starts to run good again. This topic has hit a really sore spot with me because I love this bike, except for the fuel injection problem.
I am sure that synchronizing the throttle bodies will greatly improve the performance of my bike. If Honda does not do it then I will get it done myself (I even told Honda that I was considering having Honda purchase my bike back from me under the Lemon Law act here in California - this is what suddenly got their attention).

[xNE0x_imp]

I guess I would ask you to post a video of said problem so we could see for ourselves.

[The Spaceman_imp]

Dave, that sucks. I think your issue is much different from this thread's "lean from the factory" claims that get tossed out on a regular basis. Clearly your bike shipped with either bad components or grossly maladjusted.

It sounds like you're doing the only sensible thing; escalating to Honda and holding them accountable. The good news is that there is no inherent defect or design flaw in the CB, and once it's fixed you can expect a great runningg bike.

[the Ferret]

I don't want anyone to think my bike runs unsatisfactory, on the contrary it runs great at all rpms that I have taken it to. It even runs great in the rpm band I ride most between 2500 and 3000 which is 55 to 60 mph. It's just that I could always feel the "growl" they talk about in the article, and now I know what it is and why it's there. I wouldn't change a thing about my CB. Love it.

[Cormanus]

I'm with the Spaceman. The bike feels a bit odd, maybe jerky is the right way to describe it, at around 1800-2000 RPM. I don't ride it at those revs often; maybe occasionally in a town. Otherwise it's just fine.

Can I go for a ride now?

[ClassicVW_imp]

I've owned 15+ bikes in my lifetime and not a single one has felt right, nor should they be ridden IMO at all at 2,000 RPM or below. You're getting into engine lugging territory which is bad for the engine.

If you find yourself at a steady pace at that range, you need to downshift 1 gear.

[flynrider]

In another thread someone posted "it's roughest about 1800-2K rpm." This morning I took a ride to see what my bike was like at those RPMs.

The first thing I noticed is that this is not a rev range I'd cruise at on this bike. I really had to work at it to keep the engine at that speed. My '77 Low Rider would putt along around 2k But, the HD's "tractor engine" flywheel was about 40lbs, the stroke was almost 2X the bore; that engine was built for torque vs. HP. The Honda will ride along at around a 2k engine speed with no noticeable surging etc., but other than this test I wouldn't ride it that way. It felt like I was trying to "lug" the engine. Normally I'd just be winding the revs right past 2-3k to the next shift point. Steady-speed RPMs are usually 3K plus.

If you haven't done it, next time you're out on the bike try riding at 1,500 - 2,000 RPM and see what you think. It'll do it in any gear, but it sure feels weird to me.

That was me. You're right that this is not an rpm that anyone would spend much time in. I only noticed it after others had posted about it last year. The only time I experience it is during the last block of my ride to work. It's one of those streets with multiple speed humps, so I just poke along just above idle speed. The exhaust note gets a "spluttery" sound and it feels a tiny bit rougher than normal.

I'd like to stress that I personally don't consider this a problem and wouldn't bother doing anything about it. During normal riding, the time the bike spends below 2K rpm is ridiculously small. Also, if I'm launching from a dead stop, I can't feel/hear it under normal acceleration. It's only evident if I try and hold it steady around 10-15 mph.

[DGShannon_imp]

I have always felt " something" in the 2800 to 3200 rpm range that felt like something was holding it back (and that is right in the rev range I like to ride). Others have mentioned it too saying it was the lean condition set at the factory. It wasn't until I read the design article that I found out Honda purposefully did something with the fi that made it " growl" in that rpm range. Now it makes perfect sense to me, why myself and others felt something there, but it's not factory lean...its factory mean

Read eveyone involved in a 3000 rpm rhapsody

http://world.honda.com/CB1100/engineer-talk/episode3/

"We maintained, and improved on the best aspect of the previous CB1100, the feel between 2,800 and 3,200 rpm, or between 80 and 100 km/h."

They also adjusted the valve timing

http://world.honda.com/CB1100/engineer-talk/episode1/

"Basically, straight-four engines run smooth as long as all four pistons move the same way. My initial thoughts were, to give the engine a deep rumble, we'd have to change the movement a bit.
We ended up shifting the valve timing of cylinders 1 and 2, compared to cylinders 3 and 4, and by continuing to change the gap, found the right combustion out-of-sync feel."

Granted, I am still in break-in mode, and not venturing above 4k rpm, so no clue how it runs up there, but I have concern for the 3,250 to 4,000 rpm range. Up to 3,250 mine is amazing! Smooth torque, almost doesn't care what gear you in, or how low you lug it down. But, at around 3,250 things change. The feeling that "something was holding it back" is spot on. Given that this is the 65 to 70 mph range, it makes riding at that speed unpleasant because it is as if you are asking the engine to do something it doesn't really want to do. If Honda engineered this in on purpose, then I would say they made a very stupid mistake. Who wants their large displacement 4 cylinder to feel strained and held back only half way to it's redline?

Does the PCV, or flash remap, gets rid of this feeling?

As it stands, I am not a happy camper. It is absurd that my KTM SuperDuke twin would constantly force me to slow down, since going too fast was way too easy, while a larger (supposedly smoother) inline 4 is constantly forcing me to try and speed up as it seems to hate running at 65 to 70 mph highway speeds.

Solutions guys? Love this bike, but that is a deal killer for me.

[emptysea]

Sorry, but I have spent a considerable amount of time on my 2013 CB1100 at highway speeds and have not noticed anything that even remotely felt like the engine was holding back. I think that your best bet for a solution to your issue is going with a Power COmmander or something similar and see if you can fine tune things to your satisfaction. Personally, I wouldn't own a bike I didn't feel comfortable on.