Octane Rating

[kevbroce_imp]

I'm actually at the other end of the spectrum when it comes to fuel. I currently run E85 in my '95 Volvo 940 with no modifications. Even though it runs fine on ethanol, I ordered a "conversion" kit. The kit doesn't really convert anything but actually just "massages" the gasoline engine to burn ethanol better.

Now before all of the ethanol bashing starts let me say this. Gasoline (oil) is a finite resource. At some point were going to run out of it. When that happens it will be a necessity to find another fuel to use in our vehicles. Ethanol, like other alternative fuels, is very easily renewable. So whether it's ethanol or something else, it's going to be all we have. One very big plus is that ethanol just happens to burn pretty darn good in a gasoline engine without any modifications. It does even better in an engine optimized to burn ethanol.

I read all the time about getting less mpg with ethanol. That is actually not a valid concern. I know, you're thinking twiin you've lost your mind but hear me out. It's a fact that ethanol gets less mpg than gasoline. Why, because our engines are designed for gasoline not ethanol, they just happen to be able to burn it. No one should expect to get the same performance out of two different types of fuel with different properties in the same engine unless the engine is optimized for both. Our engines are optimized for gasoline not ethanol.

With E85 you're looking at 73% to 83% of the energy compared to the equivalent amount of gasoline. It's just less energy dense than gasoline, hence the lower milage.

[url=http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fuel_comparison_chart.pdf]US Department of Energy Chart

[flynrider]

I'm actually at the other end of the spectrum when it comes to fuel. I currently run E85 in my '95 Volvo 940 with no modifications. Even though it runs fine on ethanol, I ordered a "conversion" kit. The kit doesn't really convert anything but actually just "massages" the gasoline engine to burn ethanol better.

Now before all of the ethanol bashing starts let me say this. Gasoline (oil) is a finite resource. At some point were going to run out of it. When that happens it will be a necessity to find another fuel to use in our vehicles. Ethanol, like other alternative fuels, is very easily renewable. So whether it's ethanol or something else, it's going to be all we have. One very big plus is that ethanol just happens to burn pretty darn good in a gasoline engine without any modifications. It does even better in an engine optimized to burn ethanol.

I read all the time about getting less mpg with ethanol. That is actually not a valid concern. I know, you're thinking twiin you've lost your mind but hear me out. It's a fact that ethanol gets less mpg than gasoline. Why, because our engines are designed for gasoline not ethanol, they just happen to be able to burn it. No one should expect to get the same performance out of two different types of fuel with different properties in the same engine unless the engine is optimized for both. Our engines are optimized for gasoline not ethanol.

With E85 you're looking at 73% to 83% of the energy compared to the equivalent amount of gasoline. It's just less energy dense than gasoline, hence the lower milage.

[url=http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fuel_comparison_chart.pdf]US Department of Energy Chart

That didn't sound right. If you look at the chart closely it says a gallon of ethanol has 73% to 83% of the energy than a gallon of gasoline. So that would be 17% - 27% less energy.

[kevbroce_imp]

I'm actually at the other end of the spectrum when it comes to fuel. I currently run E85 in my '95 Volvo 940 with no modifications. Even though it runs fine on ethanol, I ordered a "conversion" kit. The kit doesn't really convert anything but actually just "massages" the gasoline engine to burn ethanol better.

Now before all of the ethanol bashing starts let me say this. Gasoline (oil) is a finite resource. At some point were going to run out of it. When that happens it will be a necessity to find another fuel to use in our vehicles. Ethanol, like other alternative fuels, is very easily renewable. So whether it's ethanol or something else, it's going to be all we have. One very big plus is that ethanol just happens to burn pretty darn good in a gasoline engine without any modifications. It does even better in an engine optimized to burn ethanol.

I read all the time about getting less mpg with ethanol. That is actually not a valid concern. I know, you're thinking twiin you've lost your mind but hear me out. It's a fact that ethanol gets less mpg than gasoline. Why, because our engines are designed for gasoline not ethanol, they just happen to be able to burn it. No one should expect to get the same performance out of two different types of fuel with different properties in the same engine unless the engine is optimized for both. Our engines are optimized for gasoline not ethanol.

With E85 you're looking at 73% to 83% of the energy compared to the equivalent amount of gasoline. It's just less energy dense than gasoline, hence the lower milage.

[url=http://www.afdc.energy.gov/fuels/fuel_comparison_chart.pdf]US Department of Energy Chart

That didn't sound right. If you look at the chart closely it says a gallon of ethanol has 73% to 83% of the energy than a gallon of gasoline. So that would be 17% - 27% less energy.

That didn't sound right. If you look at the chart closely it says a gallon of ethanol has 73% to 83% of the energy than a gallon of gasoline. So that would be 17% - 27% less energy.
Ahh your are correct, I worded that wrong!

[ChipBeck_imp]

I'm actually at the other end of the spectrum when it comes to fuel. I currently run E85 in my '95 Volvo 940 with no modifications. Even though it runs fine on ethanol, I ordered a "conversion" kit. The kit doesn't really convert anything but actually just "massages" the gasoline engine to burn ethanol better.

Now before all of the ethanol bashing starts let me say this. Gasoline (oil) is a finite resource. At some point were going to run out of it. When that happens it will be a necessity to find another fuel to use in our vehicles. Ethanol, like other alternative fuels, is very easily renewable. So whether it's ethanol or something else, it's going to be all we have. One very big plus is that ethanol just happens to burn pretty darn good in a gasoline engine without any modifications. It does even better in an engine optimized to burn ethanol.

I read all the time about getting less mpg with ethanol. That is actually not a valid concern. I know, you're thinking twiin you've lost your mind but hear me out. It's a fact that ethanol gets less mpg than gasoline. Why, because our engines are designed for gasoline not ethanol, they just happen to be able to burn it. No one should expect to get the same performance out of two different types of fuel with different properties in the same engine unless the engine is optimized for both. Our engines are optimized for gasoline not ethanol.

Does that kit "massage" the carbon steel fuel system components in that Volvo into stainless steel so the E-85 wont rust them? And if it ran fine why convert anything?

I'm actually at the other end of the spectrum when it comes to fuel. I currently run E85 in my '95 Volvo 940 with no modifications. Even though it runs fine on ethanol, I ordered a "conversion" kit. The kit doesn't really convert anything but actually just "massages" the gasoline engine to burn ethanol better.

Now before all of the ethanol bashing starts let me say this. Gasoline (oil) is a finite resource. At some point were going to run out of it. When that happens it will be a necessity to find another fuel to use in our vehicles. Ethanol, like other alternative fuels, is very easily renewable. So whether it's ethanol or something else, it's going to be all we have. One very big plus is that ethanol just happens to burn pretty darn good in a gasoline engine without any modifications. It does even better in an engine optimized to burn ethanol.

I read all the time about getting less mpg with ethanol. That is actually not a valid concern. I know, you're thinking twiin you've lost your mind but hear me out. It's a fact that ethanol gets less mpg than gasoline. Why, because our engines are designed for gasoline not ethanol, they just happen to be able to burn it. No one should expect to get the same performance out of two different types of fuel with different properties in the same engine unless the engine is optimized for both. Our engines are optimized for gasoline not ethanol.

So the earth created oil in the past and then the process just stopped? The earth is still creating oil and we are still finding it. Known world oil reserves are higher today than at any time in history. Long after we are dead, and our kids are dead, and all of our great, great, great, great, great, grand children are dead, this world will still be awash in oil. We will run out of farmland and fertilizer before we run out of oil.

I'm actually at the other end of the spectrum when it comes to fuel. I currently run E85 in my '95 Volvo 940 with no modifications. Even though it runs fine on ethanol, I ordered a "conversion" kit. The kit doesn't really convert anything but actually just "massages" the gasoline engine to burn ethanol better.

Now before all of the ethanol bashing starts let me say this. Gasoline (oil) is a finite resource. At some point were going to run out of it. When that happens it will be a necessity to find another fuel to use in our vehicles. Ethanol, like other alternative fuels, is very easily renewable. So whether it's ethanol or something else, it's going to be all we have. One very big plus is that ethanol just happens to burn pretty darn good in a gasoline engine without any modifications. It does even better in an engine optimized to burn ethanol.

I read all the time about getting less mpg with ethanol. That is actually not a valid concern. I know, you're thinking twiin you've lost your mind but hear me out. It's a fact that ethanol gets less mpg than gasoline. Why, because our engines are designed for gasoline not ethanol, they just happen to be able to burn it. No one should expect to get the same performance out of two different types of fuel with different properties in the same engine unless the engine is optimized for both. Our engines are optimized for gasoline not ethanol.

Well then, fill your CB11 up with a steady diet of E-85 and let us all know how that works out. Perhaps Ghul can reflash your bike to "massage and optimize" it so you get the same mileage from a fuel with 30% less energy. Amazing how foolish all the car and truck makers are with their Flex Fuel vehicles that have stainless fuel system components and computers that greatly enrich fuel delivery when using E-85 to compensate for its lower energy content. They advise owners in the manuals to expect significantly fewer MPG with ethanol. Look at all the money they have wasted because they don't know that "ethanol just happens to burn pretty darn good in a gasoline engine without any modifications".

Ah, OK.

Chip

[DJS_imp]

I'm actually at the other end of the spectrum when it comes to fuel. I currently run E85 in my '95 Volvo 940 with no modifications. Even though it runs fine on ethanol, I ordered a "conversion" kit. The kit doesn't really convert anything but actually just "massages" the gasoline engine to burn ethanol better.

Now before all of the ethanol bashing starts let me say this. Gasoline (oil) is a finite resource. At some point were going to run out of it. When that happens it will be a necessity to find another fuel to use in our vehicles. Ethanol, like other alternative fuels, is very easily renewable. So whether it's ethanol or something else, it's going to be all we have. One very big plus is that ethanol just happens to burn pretty darn good in a gasoline engine without any modifications. It does even better in an engine optimized to burn ethanol.

I read all the time about getting less mpg with ethanol. That is actually not a valid concern. I know, you're thinking twiin you've lost your mind but hear me out. It's a fact that ethanol gets less mpg than gasoline. Why, because our engines are designed for gasoline not ethanol, they just happen to be able to burn it. No one should expect to get the same performance out of two different types of fuel with different properties in the same engine unless the engine is optimized for both. Our engines are optimized for gasoline not ethanol.

diesel engines and used fry oil.???...!!!!!
from what i have read most of the issue is not the diesel engines ability to utilize the oil, but the delivery system to and in the engine .
the engine should be started with diesel , switch to oil, then back to diesel before being shut so it starts with diesel the next time.

[twiin640_imp]

At first I had to ask myself, why is ChipBeck so negative about ethanol. And is it just ethanol or everything other than gasoline. Than I looked back and found that you have a number of Chevron gas stations. Of course it makes sense, gas is at least part of your bread and butter. I admit I'd probably be a little defensive myself. Maybe you're forced to sell ethanol and of course I'd be a little po'd at that as well. I care about what happens to this great country of ours. I spent 20 years in the military and a couple of times in the sand pit fighting for this country so I care.

My bottom line isn't ethanol, it's the fact that we as a country need to get off our addiction to gasoline. It's the only fuel we have. I don't love ethanol, I don't hate gasoline, I just know that when the gas stops, if we don't have an alternative it's going to really suck to put it mildly. Anyone else remember the 70's. There was plenty of gas then and more being found every day but we couldn't get much of it.

This is a very good and detailed writeup on running ethanol:
"Ethanol and Internal Combustion Engines" by Bob Glicksman 9/6/2011
This link should take you straight to it: http://www.liquidsunenergy.com/learning/ppt/ice.pdf

It will explain in detail what's going on with your gasoline engine when running ethanol along with the very little difference between flex and non flex vehicles.
Thank you for your time.

[ChipBeck_imp]

At first I had to ask myself, why is ChipBeck so negative about ethanol. And is it just ethanol or everything other than gasoline. Than I looked back and found that you have a number of Chevron gas stations. Of course it makes sense, gas is at least part of your bread and butter. I admit I'd probably be a little defensive myself. Maybe you're forced to sell ethanol and of course I'd be a little po'd at that as well. I care about what happens to this great country of ours. I spent 20 years in the military and a couple of times in the sand pit fighting for this country so I care.

My bottom line isn't ethanol, it's the fact that we as a country need to get off our addiction to gasoline. It's the only fuel we have. I don't love ethanol, I don't hate gasoline, I just know that when the gas stops, if we don't have an alternative it's going to really suck to put it mildly. Anyone else remember the 70's. There was plenty of gas then and more being found every day but we couldn't get much of it.

This is a very good and detailed writeup on running ethanol:
"Ethanol and Internal Combustion Engines" by Bob Glicksman 9/6/2011
This link should take you straight to it: http://www.liquidsunenergy.com/learning/ppt/ice.pdf

It will explain in detail what's going on with your gasoline engine when running ethanol along with the very little difference between flex and non flex vehicles.
Thank you for your time.

Twin,

I'm a former United States Marine. I volunteered during the Vietnam War to fight for freedom, not a set of borders. I love this country and I believe ethanol is hurting the U.S. It certainly isn't hurting me as I sell over 350,000 gallons of E-85 every year which adds nearly $100,000.00 to my Phoenix stores bottom line. We sell over 3 million gallons of E-10 Chevron gasoline so that's another 300,000 gallons of ethanol in that mix. I'm not forced to sell E-85 ethanol, but all dealers are forced to sell E-10 and all drivers are forced to buy it here in AZ. It makes economic sense for me because cab drivers are forced to use it. Still, I object to Americans being forced to buy products that cost more money to use than easily available alternatives. I read every word of that article and it's a joke. The article admits that Ethanol absorbs water and grudgingly admits that most cars get significantly less mileage on ethanol. It's not hard to understand why when he writes , "Ethanol is an oxygenated fuel and has a lower stoichiometric ratio than does gasoline. The air/fuel mixture MUST BE SIGNIFICANTLY ENRICHED when running an engine on high ethanol blends". Because gasoline contains much more energy than ethanol it is mixed with the air and a 14.7 to 1 ratio. Ethanol must be mixed with air and a 9 to 1 ratio. One third more fuel must be consumed per unit of air to produce the same amount of power as gasoline. After admitting this and telling us that most vehicles get substantially poorer mileage he then claims that "some studies" show an increase in mileage without listing a single one because no such legitimate study exists. Tell us how an engine needing to use one third more low energy fuel per unit of air produces mileage that magically increases? The author fails to mention something else quite important. While E-10 blends can be put in a pipeline and transported efficiently, E-85 cannot be put in a pipeline and must be trucked everywhere it goes, using a substantial amount of diesel in addition to all the diesel fuel required to farm the corn in the first place. Ethanol is a net energy loser for this country. Again, if it made economic sense then people wouldn't have to be forced to buy it and that is my objection.

I don't hate ethanol and if you want to use it that's fine with me. Especially since I sell it for a living. But I don't think everybody in this country should be forced to buy it when it doesn't make economic sense for consumers or for this country. Yeah it's about 20% cheaper than unleaded regular but it typically gets 30% less mileage. That's why Phoenix cab drivers hate it and resent being forced to buy it. If you think it's a good deal that's fine by me. Perhaps somebody will develop a fuel that costs 50% less than gas and gets 80% less mileage. Then you could really save big.

The final statement by the author pretty much says it all. "If we just had the political will to do it, ethanol use would increase". This is patently absurd as there is no law preventing the use of ethanol by anybody who wishes to use it. What the author is saying is that Americans should be stripped of more of their personal freedom and forced by the heavy hand of government to purchase E-15 or E-25 that will cost them more while providing them with less. This nation is not addicted to gasoline, but it is currently addicted to forcing U.S. citizens to buy products they don't want. Every American is free to buy and use as much E-85 as they want to buy. You can buy an electric car and charge it up with a windmill or solar panels. You can buy a new Honda Civic that runs on natural gas. I have auto propane fueling at my stations as well. You can use CNG if you can afford it. Gasoline and diesel are the most popular because they are the best and lowest cost fuels available today and America is now the worlds largest producer of oil and natural gas. We produce more today than Saudi Arabia. Forcing us to use more expensive alternatives is nuts. All the best.

Chip

[Motogeezer1949_imp]

I'm glad we have a few ethanol free stations locally. Luckily the WAWA station nearest my house has it. It's usually about $.50 more a gallon but for the CB, I think it's worth it. Thanks for your perspective Chip, really appreciated.

[twiin640_imp]

We've been forced to buy oil products for 100 years because there is no alterative.

There has always been water in our fuel. You station owners put it in the tanks all the time to "stretch" it out and make more profit. I'm sure you know that diesel engines have water separators to catch water in the fuel so the point about water in ethanol is a non-issue. How hard is it to add a water separator.

Mpg is a non issue. Putting a different fuel in a gasoline engine won't net the same results. I don't understand why no one, you, don't get that. No I do get it, I'm talking to an oil exec, silly me. All the best.

[the Ferret]

ok this thread is getting testy and both sides have made their point. I'm going to lock it up but leave it. Bottom line is ethanol is probably here to stay. Up to 10% is approved for our bikes. Non ethanol fuel is available in some places. Use it if you wish.

Lets talk about something else.