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+--- Thread: ABS: Good, or Bad? (/showthread.php?tid=6044)
ABS: Good, or Bad? - Ridem32_imp - 06-03-2014
Guth yes I use the front brake all the time. I just tried to lock up my rear tire one day to check my ABS and found that the rear brake just slows the bike down very slowly. I think your 13 rear brake would stop your 13 better than my 14 better with just the rear brake. That's why I told you to try both bikes at. 60mph and use only rear brake and see which bike stops quicker. Simple as that. And then let me know. You seem to think ABS is better at stopping than non ABS and I say your 13 non ABS will stop quicker. That's all I'm saying. I can't find a brake test on the 14 model yet but the 13 using both brakes at. 60mph is 131 feet.
![[Image: aedc09b5c95a8eceae9e49bfe5ac63c4.jpg]](https://cb1100forum.net/forum/uploads/imp/201406/aedc09b5c95a8eceae9e49bfe5ac63c4.jpg)
RE: ABS: Good, or Bad? - Guth_imp - 06-03-2014
Ah, okay Ridem, now I follow.
Your note about comparing the stopping power of the rear brake reminds me that a number of forum members reported that the rear brakes on their 2013 models left a lot to be desired (ranging from not good, to completely ineffective). With that in mind, I'm wondering if we are going to see the same thing with some of the 2014 models. I can't imagine the ABS even kicking in under these circumstances — do you know whether or not yours did? (I do know from testing that my back brake is capable of locking up the rear wheel.) This particular issue might not have anything to do with ABS or non-ABS offering when it comes to the CB1100.
While in general, I do tend to think that ABS is capable of outperforming regular brakes, that is dependent on the system being properly engineered and working like it is supposed to. In the case of a brake system with improperly bled hydraulics, none of this probably matters. That same statement can apply to a number of variables.
To some degree, I'm simply playing the devils advocate here. I grew up riding dirt bikes and grew used to a number of the sensations and maneuvers you've described like back wheels sliding out, etc. That familiarity has come handy a few times on the street when I might have otherwise panicked. While I haven't logged any time on the track, I have experienced a few situations that required the best of my own processing power to maintain my composure and control my bike in "emergency situations". I was able to avoid locking up my wheels and avoid dumping my bike in the process. I felt reluctant enough about the complexity of the ABS system and comfortable enough (just enough) with my skills to forgo the ABS option when it was my time to buy. In general terms, when a well-engineered system is functioning properly, I do think pretty highly of ABS can bring to the table.
RE: ABS: Good, or Bad? - Houtman_imp - 06-03-2014
I am very proud to be a member of this Forum were some people have better braking skills than the 20 times TT winner John McGuiness (he believes in abs)
Sadly I am not one of these people and like the safety aspect of abs incase I make a mistake ,other people or animals doing unpredictable things and riding in the rain on slick roads.
Perhaps some riders never make mistakes and do not ride in the rain.
For 45 years I never had abs on the many bikes I owned (including a RC 30) .
The 2013 CB1100 is the first bike I own with abs and my next one will have the same.
I hardly ever use the rear brake and mostly than riding in the city.
For 22 years I sold animal feed in New York and Vermont driving 1500 miles every week with some really bad snow on rural roads and Interstates.
When abs came around in cars I found that the cars were much better to steer into the right direction with the abs brakes.
I am not saying that cars are the same as bikes but we had the same arguments when cars came with abs and people questioned other drivers skills.
I fully admit that I can make mistakes but hopefully the non abs believers will never make a mistake : GOOD LUCK !!!
RE: ABS: Good, or Bad? - rjk555_imp - 06-03-2014
Collection of ABS/Non-ABS Comparison Tests
Comparison tests speak favorably of ABS
As others have opined, there may be people reading this thread, to help decide between an ABS or non-ABS bike. The tests below may help make an informed decision.
To summarize, I looked for side-by-side comparisons between ABS and non-ABS bikes, believing that such tests provide richer information than anecdotal accounts. All of the tests I found spoke favorably of ABS, including one test in which the non-ABS bike received similar scores to the ABS bike. In the latter case ("Street test" below), the tester determined that an experienced rider on a non-ABS bike can match ABS performance - but under very narrow conditions such as having a skilled rider stopping from slower speed (40 mph in the test), on dry pavement with rich gripping surface. How many people enjoy riding faster than that, or experience variables like damp roads, cars whizzing by or other distractions? According to the Street test, "witnessing a near crash from a skid by a skilled rider on a slick but not wet road is enough to bust the myth that a good rider doesn't need ABS."
Finally, to sweeten the pot, some insurance companies offer discounts to ABS-equipped bikes.
I looked for, but didn't find, any comparison tests which ended in favor of getting a non-ABS bike. Each of us make our own risk assessment. I hope this data helps prospective buyers make theirs. Enjoy.
[url=http://www.cycleworld.com/2014/01/17/off-road-braking-test-pro-level-off-road-racer-against-ktm-abs/]Dirt test.
[url=http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Features/RideReports/AntiLockBraking.aspx]Track test.
[url=http://www.superstreetbike.com/features/mythbusters-abs-equipped-bike-good-rider-doesnt-need-abs]Street test.
[url=https://www.alliedinsurance.com/motorcycle-insurance-discounts.jsp]Insurance discount.
RE: ABS: Good, or Bad? - The Spaceman_imp - 06-03-2014
(06-03-2014, 12:52 PM)Guth_imp Wrote: One irony for the general audience of this site is that as a person builds up cumulative hours of riding experience, that same person also ages. Sadly, with age comes a degradation of physical skills and reaction times.
ABS isn't going to help someone avoid every single bad situation involving braking or avoidance maneuvers. Neither are track days or riding dirt bikes for that matter. On the flip side, non of these things are going to hurt ones chances of survival on the street.
While I chose to go without ABS, I don't see it as a bandaid. I certainly do not view ABS as a substitute for skilled riding or good planning, but I do see it as complimentary to those things. It would seem to me that a truly skilled rider at the top of his or her game could hop on a bike with a good ABS system and use it to its full advantage. If that's not the case, I'd generally suspect the riders skills are at fault rather than the ABS.
Rider skills?
ABS allows the 99.999% of riders and drivers who cannot threshold brake at the limits of tire adhesion to achieve the same result by simply slamming the pedal or lever all the way down. And what do the vast majority of riders and drivers do in a panic/danger situation? They slam the pedal or lever all the way down. With no track days, no lifetime of training, not even coherent thought, Average Joe brakes like Vic Elford.
Here's what the AMA (American Motorcyclist Association) has to say on the topic:
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Features/RideReports/AntiLockBraking.aspx
More than one of the internet myths on ABS that have been posted on this very thread are debunked.
It's funny, I remember hearing the same stuff about other safety technologies. Seat belts would "trap you in the car" or "restrict your movement" and were thus unsafe. Air bags were "dangerous explosive devices" that if installed in cars would "maim and kill thousands" every year. That last one was from no less than Lee Iacocca in his autobiography.
If people don't want to exploit every safety technology out there, that's up to them. Personally, I'll go out of my way to make my ride safer. I've been down, and I didn't like it.
RE: ABS: Good, or Bad? - Red Mist_imp - 06-03-2014
(06-03-2014, 10:34 PM)The Spaceman_imp Wrote:One day, in the distant future, ABS will be able to do what is claimed here, just like airbags today can do. At first, airbags weren't so great. These days they are much better.(06-03-2014, 12:52 PM)Guth_imp Wrote: One irony for the general audience of this site is that as a person builds up cumulative hours of riding experience, that same person also ages. Sadly, with age comes a degradation of physical skills and reaction times.
ABS isn't going to help someone avoid every single bad situation involving braking or avoidance maneuvers. Neither are track days or riding dirt bikes for that matter. On the flip side, non of these things are going to hurt ones chances of survival on the street.
While I chose to go without ABS, I don't see it as a bandaid. I certainly do not view ABS as a substitute for skilled riding or good planning, but I do see it as complimentary to those things. It would seem to me that a truly skilled rider at the top of his or her game could hop on a bike with a good ABS system and use it to its full advantage. If that's not the case, I'd generally suspect the riders skills are at fault rather than the ABS.
Rider skills?
ABS allows the 99.999% of riders and drivers who cannot threshold brake at the limits of tire adhesion to achieve the same result by simply slamming the pedal or lever all the way down. And what do the vast majority of riders and drivers do in a panic/danger situation? They slam the pedal or lever all the way down. With no track days, no lifetime of training, not even coherent thought, Average Joe brakes like Vic Elford.
Here's what the AMA (American Motorcyclist Association) has to say on the topic:
http://www.americanmotorcyclist.com/Features/RideReports/AntiLockBraking.aspx
More than one of the internet myths on ABS that have been posted on this very thread are debunked.
It's funny, I remember hearing the same stuff about other safety technologies. Seat belts would "trap you in the car" or "restrict your movement" and were thus unsafe. Air bags were "dangerous explosive devices" that if installed in cars would "maim and kill thousands" every year. That last one was from no less than Lee Iacocca in his autobiography.
If people don't want to exploit every safety technology out there, that's up to them. Personally, I'll go out of my way to make my ride safer. I've been down, and I didn't like it.
I own both ABS and non-ABS motorcycles. All have excellent hardware for the brakes, providing very good modulation, power, and control. The ABS-equipped bike takes me, personally, much longer to get stopped than the other three. First thing I did when I got that ABS bike is to go out and get the ABS to kick in, on both clean, dry pavement and dirt.
What did I learn? It does not work on the front brake below about 10 mph in the dirt (this is a BMW F700GS adventure bike). She locked right up and I had to use my old, useless, ancient, degraded, old-man skills to recover. But then, I expected it, so maybe I was cheating.
Second thing I learned is that the front brake ABS kicks in sooner than lockup would actually occur; that is, this bike releases the brake before the threshold of maximum braking. I practice threshold braking constantly, every single time I ride, to the point where the rear tire is barely putting pressure on the ground. I like to do this, it's fun. I know my bikes very well, and the BMW robs me of this pleasure; it kicks in too soon. Not only that, but this could create a serious problem under aggressive braking during corner entry, as a sudden release of brake pressure prematurely can put you right off your line.
Also found that the rear ABS kicks in far earlier than lockup would occur. I can thankfully turn this feature off and tested it both ways. The rear ABS would consistently release brake pressure well before actual lockup would occur. I was able to brake much harder without the ABS on, and without lockup.
Anyway, it's been stated a few times that ABS is for the 99 percent of riders who don't race, haven't done a lot of track days and training, and are prone to "grabbing a handful". That's true and hopefully it'll save their bacon sometime.
Only thing I've noticed is there are lots of riders willing to bet on ABS who've never gone to a single track day and probably never will. Well, I say go ahead and get the ABS bike if you think it'll help you, by all means. But why not combine some real-life training with modern technology? Why hope ABS will allow you to survive a mistake when you can learn how not to make the mistake in the first place, and then your ABS is an additional layer of security and not that band-aid for a missing skill?
(06-03-2014, 02:57 PM)EmptySea_imp Wrote: I'm going to try this one more time: ABS does not take away ANY of your control of your bike. It activates upon brake lock. Once your brakes are locked you have virtually no control of your bike anyway. Plus, your conventional braking strategy will work exactly the same on an ABS bike as a nonABS bike.None of my comments imply that; I recommend ABS and traction control for any rider who can afford them.
I understand that you feel that you don't need ABS and that is your choice. However, there are newer AND experienced riders reading this thread trying to find out if ABS is better than conventional. Some of the comments here seem to imply that no rider, or at least no experienced rider, should have ABS. Keeping in mind that we all should be employing good technique and therefore avoid locking the brakes in the first place, ABS is better because it will stop your bike in a more controlled manner IF you ever have a technique breakdown for whatever reason.
I am just responding to the thread title and my views and experience with ABS.
I am also rightly stating that any and all riders can greatly benefit from the kind of intensive training one receives at a good track day school.
So why not do both?
(06-03-2014, 03:26 PM)Guth_imp Wrote:Your statement somewhat makes my point for me. Advances in technology have helped to offset the negative impacts of the aging rider, and then some. No, my statement does nothing of the sort. As we can see from the quoted post, I said I'm riding faster now than ever before due to the new technology.(06-03-2014, 02:08 PM)Red Mist_imp Wrote:(06-03-2014, 12:52 PM)Guth_imp Wrote: One irony for the general audience of this site is that as a person builds up cumulative hours of riding experience, that same person also ages. Sadly, with age comes a degradation of physical skills and reaction times.Not so. First off, I'm certainly one of the older riders on this site, at 57, but I am riding as well as I ever have, through continual practice and training. I don't ride off-road any longer but at my last track day I was planting my knee quite happily into the pavement and pulling the front tire off the ground from time to time...not too bad for an older man. In fact, I'm riding quicker now than ever because the equipment I have is so much better and tires have improved dramatically. So you can forget the notion that old guys get slow. I rode with Reg Pridmore recently and he rides like greased lightning, and the guy's pushing 70.
ABS isn't going to help someone avoid every single bad situation involving braking or avoidance maneuvers. Neither are track days or riding dirt bikes for that matter. On the flip side, non of these things are going to hurt ones chances of survival on the street.
While I chose to go without ABS, I don't see it as a bandaid. I certainly do not view ABS as a substitute for skilled riding or good planning, but I do see it as complimentary to those things. It would seem to me that a truly skilled rider at the top of his or her game could hop on a bike with a good ABS system and use it to its full advantage. If that's not the case, I'd generally suspect the riders skills are at fault rather than the ABS.
Second, we need to understand what ABS actually does and that's our problem here, a lack of understanding.
ABS does not just "take over" the braking and brake to perfection, like the RoboCop suit. All it does, to one degree or another, is release the brakes when a slide is detected. At this point the rider should have brains enough to release the brake a little and regain control. Most ABS systems are low-resolution, low-processing power, and are a band-aid only.
Automobile manuals have been telling us to mash the brakes to the floor and ride it out in an emergency and that's also wrong for someone who knows how to use the brakes. I have a couple of pretty high-performance cars and it's fun to feel the ABS and stability control kick in when the tires touch some uneven pavement, but it's only for a few tenths of a second. The rest of the time, I'm in control.
Consider this...the winner in a MotoGP race is the rider who crosses the finish line first (unless there is some technicality involved, of course). If ABS, like traction control, would help with this, these guys would be using it. They don't use it because it would be very dangerous if a pack of racers came shrieking into a corner, and the ABS released the brakes on a rider's machine whilst in very close quarters with another bike. It takes a lot of skill and concentration and you can't have computers running things. It's up to the rider to be good enough. If you have never ridden a machine with terrific brakes, in a racing environment, you cannot appreciate the superb feel and control that great brakes provide, at all lean angles and under all conditions. I can tell you that a good rider can very precisely and smoothly control and modulate the brakes even at deep lean angles and during a cornering transition.
Track days, off-road riding, braking and cornering exercises...we can't learn to really ride a motorcycle to its potential just riding around on the street or reading about it, we've got to do it. Or as Flynrider said -- and I paraphrase -- we can just keep doing whatever we're doing and hope the ABS works as imagined.
(06-03-2014, 02:04 PM)Ridem32_imp Wrote: It's not that ABS is not a good safe add on. It is. All I'm saying is to me it takes away from the full control of the rider. Heck I have ABS on both my deluxe models. I was riding my 78 cb750four in my yard. I have a huge yard. 5 acres I also have another 15 acres that about 4 years ago I built a full Moto cross track. Had people coming from all over to ride. Doubles, triples, table tops step ups bad bad woop section. Made the track for my son. But back to the yard. And the 78 750four I was running about 18mph and my sons dog a Great Dane ran out in front of me I hit the rear brake. ( drum ) slid the bike around rear tire locked up then gassed it and missed the dog and was headed back from where I was coming from. No biggie if I would of slid down but with ABS I could not of done that. And I'm soon to be 54 in a few months ! I'm by far no expert but I can ride and can still think. Riding a bike should be a part of you after so many years if you really are into bikes! Nothing to argue about I just think I ( meaning me ) should be able to lock up my rear tire if I want to or need to. Crazy as it might should and I guess to some it is. But I had a 03 ultra classic that on long trips I would set my cruise move to the back set with no way to hit brakes or touch handle bars and ride for over 45 min on the back set. Had several friends on our 5k mile plus trips and they knew what I was going to do. Relax and ride. Never ride over your head! But man and machine can become as one and it's no limit to what you can do on a bikeWell-said, my friend, well-said. Freddie Spencer, a little-known racer that you might have heard of once or twice, once remarked that he had a track built in his back yard and when he was four years old, rode that track from dawn to dark, clockwise and counterclockwise, with half of it wet down and the other half dry. Spencer did and can still do amazing things on a motorcycle (such as winning a World Championship at 19) but it all comes down to training and experience.. Yea call me crazy but I got another good friend and we can swap bikes going down the hwy! My wife and I can swap from front to back of bike while cruising! Got another friend that can wheelie a gsxr1000 with 5 people on it and then do a stoppie with the 5 on it with rear end almost flipping over the front but he can control that bike with mere brake control. Wet roads etc newbie riders ABS is great. Guys our age we rode all of our life's with out ABS and we HAD TO LEARN TO CONTROL IN RAIN, water, gravel etc. Yes I'm ole fashion and proud of it. As I get older I might want the training wheels to keep myself in the wind
I myself could also relate countless stories of stuff that was just no big deal because I know how to handle a bike; once a guy crashed right in front of me on the racetrack and I knew he was going to slide right into my path. The only way I could avoid him was to lock up the rear in an "on/off" pattern as any good dirt rider knows how to do. This kicked out the rear end of my motorcycle and allowed me to just barely miss him. I walked the track right after and could clearly see the skid marks in a broken-line type of pattern showing what I did.
Another time (since we are chewing the fat) I was riding with a group of people at high altitudes in December, and was following a guy who was quite fast. I was riding a BMW R100GS, about 470 pounds and 58 HP but it could rail through the fast turns pretty well. I came around a right hander at about 60 mph and it was just as pretty as a picture, all coated with a thin layer of rime ice. There was no way to get through it so I just stood the bike up, shot over to the opposite shoulder, which was unpaved dirt (no traffic coming) and brought the bike to a nice stop.
The next guy who came around crashed.
Guys we are not making this stuff up.
Like it or not, old guys in and of themselves do get slower. This is a big part of why the up and coming guys in the world of racing are almost always younger than the outgoing "old guys" that they are displacing from the podium.
Your statement somewhat makes my point for me. Advances in technology have helped to offset the negative impacts of the aging rider, and then some.
Ridem, as far as the CB1100 goes, I'm not sure what you're getting at. Do you not use the front brake on your bike?
(06-03-2014, 02:57 PM)EmptySea_imp Wrote: I'm going to try this one more time: ABS does not take away ANY of your control of your bike. It activates upon brake lock. Once your brakes are locked you have virtually no control of your bike anyway. Plus, your conventional braking strategy will work exactly the same on an ABS bike as a nonABS bike.
I understand that you feel that you don't need ABS and that is your choice. However, there are newer AND experienced riders reading this thread trying to find out if ABS is better than conventional. Some of the comments here seem to imply that no rider, or at least no experienced rider, should have ABS. Keeping in mind that we all should be employing good technique and therefore avoid locking the brakes in the first place, ABS is better because it will stop your bike in a more controlled manner IF you ever have a technique breakdown for whatever reason.
That's why I find John McGuinness' comments regarding ABS so insightful. He definitely contradicts the notion mentioned above and his skill set is off of the scale.
[url=http://www.bikesafer.com/abs.html]This web page reflects my personal view of ABS: handy in a pinch, but not a substitute for practice. Even ABS brakes require practice in order to get the most out of them. Italicized material is quoted from the page.
You can improve your braking performance slightly beyond the ABS braking maximum by manully adjusting the brake control pressure, and Lee Parks insists that when he was testing bikes for Motorcycle Consumer News that he could consistently outperform the Promocycle braking performance, with or without ABS. No doubt, but Lee Parks is a brilliant, highly competitive track rider and the average leisure biker has no hope of attaining his level of virtuosity. The bike brake testing was performed in perfect conditions, which rarely occur on real roads, the rider can do some practice runs, and he knows in advance where he should start braking.
ABS: worth the price.
We have little doubt that, except for true experts, operating in perfect conditions, most riders in ambient conditions will perform much better in emergency stopping with ABS
The accumulation of evidence looks like ABS does work on bikes, and that it probably saves lives.
We'd like to see ABS available on more models of motorcycles, and perhaps the current cycle crash causation study will include enough ABS-equipped motorcycles in its exposure data to be able to settle the matter for once and for all. We think that if ABS was a proven lifesaver, the operation of the market and the product liability issues would lead to greater availability and reduced costs.
In the meantime, if you are buying a bike, and ABS is an option, we recommend you get it.
ABS: Good, or Bad? - Ridem32_imp - 06-04-2014
![[Image: 3ee7f0aa68f497b5614be913d510d83b.jpg]](https://cb1100forum.net/forum/uploads/imp/201406/3ee7f0aa68f497b5614be913d510d83b.jpg)
Guth. On my 14 deluxe if you hit the rear brake petal hard say at 60 mph the petal pulsates very badly way before lock up just barely slowing down not linked to the front at all. My ST1300 ABS when you hit the rear brake at 60mph that dude sets down and stops linked to front brakes helping bike to stop very well. What I was trying to say to you was with your 13 model non ABS your bike would stop before my 14 deluxe ABS using just the rear brake. That's all I was trying to say. But you know how we talk in Mississippi lol
RE: ABS: Good, or Bad? - Lord Popgun - 06-04-2014
Ridem,
I agree the rear brake leaves much to be desired, but some of us with 13's had air in the rear brake line that made them useless. I joked that the rear brake pedal was just an ankle exerciser
After bleeding the air out of mine, it works much better, but is not a great brake. All of us (about 4-5 here I think) complaining had NON-ABS bikes. Don't know if any ABS models had the air problem or not as none were reported on the board. I've been thinking of bleeding mine again just to be sure.
Maybe some of the 14's have the air problem too. Or maybe the rear is just a crappy brake.
RE: ABS: Good, or Bad? - Red Mist_imp - 06-04-2014
(06-04-2014, 01:35 AM)Lord Popgun_imp Wrote: Ridem,Negative. My '13 has an excellent rear brake; I use it all the time to stabilize the bike, help it track better through turns, and take the slack out of the drivetrain.
I agree the rear brake leaves much to be desired, but some of us with 13's had air in the rear brake line that made them useless. I joked that the rear brake pedal was just an ankle exerciser
After bleeding the air out of mine, it works much better, but is not a great brake. All of us (about 4-5 here I think) complaining had NON-ABS bikes. Don't know if any ABS models had the air problem or not as none were reported on the board. I've been thinking of bleeding mine again just to be sure.
Maybe some of the 14's have the air problem too. Or maybe the rear is just a crappy brake.
It's been great from day one. I suspect there were a few that had air in the system, I just got one that didn't.
Front brakes are also superb, perfectly matched to the bike.
I have had daylight under the rear tire.
(06-04-2014, 12:45 AM)Ridem32_imp Wrote:Proof positive that you don't need no $10 words to say sumthin'.
Guth. On my 14 deluxe if you hit the rear brake petal hard say at 60 mph the petal pulsates very badly way before lock up just barely slowing down not linked to the front at all. My ST1300 ABS when you hit the rear brake at 60mph that dude sets down and stops linked to front brakes helping bike to stop very well. What I was trying to say to you was with your 13 model non ABS your bike would stop before my 14 deluxe ABS using just the rear brake. That's all I was trying to say. But you know how we talk in Mississippi lol
![[Image: 45221ee7592f152cbfaebd5380fdc335.jpg]](https://cb1100forum.net/forum/uploads/imp/201406/45221ee7592f152cbfaebd5380fdc335.jpg)
RE: ABS: Good, or Bad? - emptysea - 06-04-2014
+1 on "So why not do both?"