(12-05-2017, 03:28 PM)max_imp Wrote: Hi Dave, good to hear from you again.

A question; in general would you agree that the issue starts gradually at some point and then gets progressively worse?

Not trying to put words in your mouth , just thinking in one direction and one step at a time if that makes sense..

Cheers max

(12-05-2017, 02:29 PM)SportsterDoc_imp Wrote:

(12-05-2017, 10:51 AM)pdedse_imp Wrote:

(12-05-2017, 06:32 AM)SportsterDoc_imp Wrote:

(12-05-2017, 06:30 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: I don't think its a vacume leak problem which to me would cause high idle issues only. THis " problem" has componants of both high and low idle, therefore I think its some kind of sensor problem, but I am not an engineer.

May not be the issue...but want to check as many possibilities as possible

Small leak = high idle
Big leak = engine dying

BTW, in the Hunting RPM thread, post 72, popgun posted the EOT resistance value
"From the manual: STANDARD: 2.4-2.9 Kohms (20 degrees C/68 degrees F)"

Surprised that it is not a chart with temperature ranges.

May not be the issue...but want to check as many possibilities as possible

Small leak = high idle
Big leak = engine dying
...
But if it were vacuum leak related, wouldn't the high idle happen consistently, as in "all the time"? I've had high and low idle on the same ride. Stop, turn off engine, restart, problem goes away, sometimes it doesn't.

jdvalero pulled the TPS sensor plug and found a physical issue with wiring and says that this has fixed the issue for him. I hope that the problem truly is fixed for him, because that would be one of the few cases where something concrete was spotted as being "faulty", a fix applied, and idle issue goes away.

Per suggestions near that post, I pulled that plug, cleaned connectors and applied a tiny bit of dialectic grease, reconnected. I've done 3 rides since...1st time with bike fully warm, 1 instance of low idle at 750rpm. Tuned off bike, started and idle returned to normal. Last two rides of 1/2 hour to 1 hr, no issues at all. Fixed? Hahahaaaa. Yes, until it isn't.

May depend upon the nature of the leak:
1. intake boot may be affected by thermal expansion
2. cracked/loose hose may be affected by movement
3. cracked fitting (4 way or 5 way) may be affected by heat and/or movement. Small crack = high idle...crack opens and bike barely idles.

Not saying this is the issue, but worth checking:
a. Snug clamp bolts
b. Check hoses are not hardened and pushjed all the way on.
c. inspect fittings
d. apply unlit propane and listen for idle speed change

(12-05-2017, 02:14 PM)max_imp Wrote: Just some pics to show how i tested the rpm eot relationship.

first pic is what is connected and type of connectors ( everything is wired in parallel )

second is with engine lukewarm r eot = 1000 ohm 3.468 v and 1340 rpm.

third is engine warmed up just enough for the rpm to settle at 1050 rpm at 2.17 v at 371 ohm.

So the point where the engine settles at 1050 rpm appears to be 2 volts across the eot sensor,

Good info and great pics!

(12-05-2017, 01:04 PM)max_imp Wrote: Hi again doc, some more info and a video.

Voltage tested at engine cold is 4.04 volts ( 2000 ohms ) 1500 rpm
and hot engine measures 0.909 volts (300 ohms ) 1050 rpm

Interestingly i could not get the engine to idle below 1050 rpm? ( low rpm issue ).

Seems perfect for the a/d converter in the cpu in the ecm ( geeks only ).http://cb1100forum.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif

Please be careful not to damage the little terminals inside the eot sensor, this is a bit of an advanced test which requires knowledge of electronics and connectors!

Really good request of the vin numbers, it may relate to a particular batch that had something different done.
The issue is that japan does not have any faulty bikes to test and that makes it hard for them to come up with an answer,
so if we can give them some numbers they may find something that relates to this batch of bikes.

New youtube video on today's test with the relationship between the eot sensor and change of rpm

; [url=https://youtu.be/aDkx_6tIeDs]https://youtu.be/aDkx_6tIeDs

as usual; cheers Max

Great visual depiction of correlation of lowering EOT voltage with lowering of idle speed. In the first test as both were dropping, then the EOT voltage climbed , which should indicate oil colder, instead of warming up.
Somehow added resistance is getting into the EOT-ECU circuit:
Air pocket at EOT possible???

Confirm that the voltage probe is at ECU connector?

If so, this would eliminate
a. Bad connection at EOT and/or ECU
b. Partially broken wire

and points to a defective EOT

I just got home from a long meeting with some paperwork to do tonight, so I am not completely focused, but my initial thinking is that your video indicates that it is NOT
A. an internal ECU / ECU program issue
B. not a vacuum issue
C. Not an IAC issue
on your bike.

There are many different bikes, both manufacturer and model, with EFI idle issues...there may be many different causes.

(12-05-2017, 11:48 AM)peterbaron_imp Wrote:

(12-05-2017, 08:46 AM)Lord Popgun_imp Wrote: Doc,

I’ll look in the manual for the TPS. There is some info in there but I can’t remember detals. If nothing else, I know it lists min/max voltages.

Even though the TPS is not available separately, one knowledgeable member posted that is was the same a one off some car. He based this off the min/max voltages and actually tweeked his some. [Guys, DO NOT try this unless you are very experianced with this kind of thing. As noted before, there is NOTHING in the service manual for adjusting. Just big warnings to not touch it.]

I spent a couple hours trying to find that post and could not. He said it was a pretty common one, IIRC.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
NOTHING wrong with popgun statement at all !!!!!!

Just want to add 2 cents...and I am NOT that mentioned knowledgeable member...

2013-14 HONDA-CB1100 :: TPS voltage & resistance test WITHOUT removing TPS
Test with digital multimeter (for advanced users)..
TPS (variable resistor) has 3 wires/pins: power supply(+), ground(-) and signal::

NEVER disconnect/reconnect TPS connector if IGN is ON, EVER
This is NOT a field fix to your problem - TPS test only
You do all these tests at your own risk/I assume no responsibility

IF you have a TPS problem = most likely you would have a DTC (history, pending or active, possible ELO/MIL ON).....or.....poor connection somewhere ...

WHEN ENGINE FULLY WARMED UP AND IDLING - WIGGLE/PRESS BLACK/3 PIN TPS CONNECTOR (near your L leg) and see if there is some RPM fluctuation.. = SIMPLE TEST FOR EVERYONE.

These advanced tests might be helpful::

TPS wiring::
black/yellow = power supply (+)
black/green = ground (-)
black/red = signal
This Honda diagram, I have, SUCS BIG TIME !!!!! = due to NO pin numbers

TEST 1
*IGN ON, Engine/stop switch OFF, backprobe ground and signal = about 0 Volts = OK when throttle is closed. NOTE:: I do not think it will be dead on 0/ZERO Volts, I think it will be slightly above..like 0.1 - 0.2 V
*TPS sensor VOLTAGE must smoothly/continuously increase/decrease when throttle is opening/closing respectively...so you MUST have smooth Voltage operation from about 0V (closed) to about 4.75 - 5.25 V at WOT = OK

TEST 2
*IGN OFF, Engine/stop switch OFF, DISCONNECT black TPS connector (3pins)
* TURN IGN ON, do NOT start (while TPS connector disconnected)
* Measure the voltage between black/yellow(+) and black/green(-) = MUST be within 4.75 - 5.25 V = OK

** Tell me what is your voltage between black/green(-) and black/red (signal), PLEASE = ? V **

TEST 3
*IGN OFF
* Disconnect black/3pin TPS connector
* Measure TPSensor side (NOT harness) resistance between black/red & black/green = within 0.5 - 1.5 kOhm = OK..
Manual does NOT tell me TPS resistance at WOT or/and between ground(-) and power supply(+)...but from my TPS experience would be above 1.5 kOhms

This entire TPS circuit consists of 4 connectors: TPS (black 3 pins), SUB black/10 pin, JOINT black/12 pin and ECM/ECU gray/33pin...and poor contact might be anywhere...would first start with TPS connector as per tests 1,2,3

Do NOT want to make complicated but this is how it works and how to test it
MAKE sure your throttle cable has some slack !!!
After disconnecting ANY connector:: check it, clean it, apply connector enhancer for better conductivity, please.

pb

Peter
Excellent info
Thank you much...will finish evaluating in the morning

This allows present and future member to evaluate (albeit carefully), if the need arises.

In the automotive world TPS failures are somewhat common, especially above 100,000 miles and typically cause a limp mode. I would expect few issues on a bike with much lower miles, but still very surprised that a TPS cannot be purchased separately.

(12-05-2017, 02:14 PM)max_imp Wrote: Just some pics to show how i tested the rpm eot relationship.

first pic is what is connected and type of connectors ( everything is wired in parallel )

second is with engine lukewarm r eot = 1000 ohm 3.468 v and 1340 rpm.

third is engine warmed up just enough for the rpm to settle at 1050 rpm at 2.17 v at 371 ohm.

So the point where the engine settles at 1050 rpm appears to be 2 volts across the eot sensor,

(12-05-2017, 01:04 PM)max_imp Wrote: Hi again doc, some more info and a video.

Voltage tested at engine cold is 4.04 volts ( 2000 ohms ) 1500 rpm
and hot engine measures 0.909 volts (300 ohms ) 1050 rpm

Interestingly i could not get the engine to idle below 1050 rpm? ( low rpm issue ).

Seems perfect for the a/d converter in the cpu in the ecm ( geeks only ).http://cb1100forum.com/forum/images/smilies/cool.gif

Please be careful not to damage the little terminals inside the eot sensor, this is a bit of an advanced test which requires knowledge of electronics and connectors!

Really good request of the vin numbers, it may relate to a particular batch that had something different done.
The issue is that japan does not have any faulty bikes to test and that makes it hard for them to come up with an answer,
so if we can give them some numbers they may find something that relates to this batch of bikes.

New youtube video on today's test with the relationship between the eot sensor and change of rpm

; https://youtu.be/aDkx_6tIeDs

as usual; cheers Max

(12-05-2017, 11:48 AM)peterbaron_imp Wrote:

(12-05-2017, 08:46 AM)Lord Popgun_imp Wrote: Doc,

I’ll look in the manual for the TPS. There is some info in there but I can’t remember detals. If nothing else, I know it lists min/max voltages.

Even though the TPS is not available separately, one knowledgeable member posted that is was the same a one off some car. He based this off the min/max voltages and actually tweeked his some. [Guys, DO NOT try this unless you are very experianced with this kind of thing. As noted before, there is NOTHING in the service manual for adjusting. Just big warnings to not touch it.]

I spent a couple hours trying to find that post and could not. He said it was a pretty common one, IIRC.

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>.
NOTHING wrong with popgun statement at all !!!!!!

Just want to add 2 cents...and I am NOT that mentioned knowledgeable member...

2013-14 HONDA-CB1100 :: TPS voltage & resistance test WITHOUT removing TPS
Test with digital multimeter (for advanced users)..
TPS (variable resistor) has 3 wires/pins: power supply(+), ground(-) and signal::

NEVER disconnect/reconnect TPS connector if IGN is ON, EVER
This is NOT a field fix to your problem - TPS test only
You do all these tests at your own risk/I assume no responsibility

IF you have a TPS problem = most likely you would have a DTC (history, pending or active, possible ELO/MIL ON).....or.....poor connection somewhere ...

WHEN ENGINE FULLY WARMED UP AND IDLING - WIGGLE/PRESS BLACK/3 PIN TPS CONNECTOR (near your L leg) and see if there is some RPM fluctuation.. = SIMPLE TEST FOR EVERYONE.

These advanced tests might be helpful::

TPS wiring::
black/yellow = power supply (+)
black/green = ground (-)
black/red = signal
This Honda diagram, I have, SUCS BIG TIME !!!!! = due to NO pin numbers

TEST 1
*IGN ON, Engine/stop switch OFF, backprobe ground and signal = about 0 Volts = OK when throttle is closed. NOTE:: I do not think it will be dead on 0/ZERO Volts, I think it will be slightly above..like 0.1 - 0.2 V
*TPS sensor VOLTAGE must smoothly/continuously increase/decrease when throttle is opening/closing respectively...so you MUST have smooth Voltage operation from about 0V (closed) to about 4.75 - 5.25 V at WOT = OK

TEST 2
*IGN OFF, Engine/stop switch OFF, DISCONNECT black TPS connector (3pins)
* TURN IGN ON, do NOT start (while TPS connector disconnected)
* Measure the voltage between black/yellow(+) and black/green(-) = MUST be within 4.75 - 5.25 V = OK

** Tell me what is your voltage between black/green(-) and black/red (signal), PLEASE = ? V **

TEST 3
*IGN OFF
* Disconnect black/3pin TPS connector
* Measure TPSensor side (NOT harness) resistance between black/red & black/green = within 0.5 - 1.5 kOhm = OK..
Manual does NOT tell me TPS resistance at WOT or/and between ground(-) and power supply(+)...but from my TPS experience would be above 1.5 kOhms

This entire TPS circuit consists of 4 connectors: TPS (black 3 pins), SUB black/10 pin, JOINT black/12 pin and ECM/ECU gray/33pin...and poor contact might be anywhere...would first start with TPS connector as per tests 1,2,3

Do NOT want to make complicated but this is how it works and how to test it
MAKE sure your throttle cable has some slack !!!
After disconnecting ANY connector:: check it, clean it, apply connector enhancer for better conductivity, please.

pb

(12-06-2017, 12:42 AM)kennyw_imp Wrote: I have had the low idle issue twice on my 2013 with 50k miles. Both times were stop and go traffic with temps above 90*F.

Both times simply shutting off the kill switch, turning it back on, and re-starting the bike fixed it temporarily. The problem will creep up again after 10-15 minutes if traffic remained bad but stayed away if traffic started moving. I haven't had the problem again after the temps went below 90*F.

I have not had the high idle issue.

(12-05-2017, 04:05 PM)Dave_imp Wrote:

(12-05-2017, 03:28 PM)max_imp Wrote: Hi Dave, good to hear from you again.

A question; in general would you agree that the issue starts gradually at some point and then gets progressively worse?

Not trying to put words in your mouth , just thinking in one direction and one step at a time if that makes sense..

Cheers max

Hi Max. My issue started with the slow idle / stalling. However, it was never a bad as the video on this thread. I could always restart my bike after it stalled, and it would run fine at a higher RPM - it just didn't want to idle. This issue went away by itself, and then the high idle (1,500 rpm) started about two months later. This lasted about 1 - 2 months. After a WFO run in the desert (started at low RPM in 4th gear to make a pass with a passenger on back and ran through the gears while wide open, but never exceeding 6,000 RPM), the high RPM idle issue cured itself also, and has never returned. About 2,000 trouble-free miles later the low idle / stalling has returned. I can keep the bike from stalling by blipping the throttle - it runs fine as soon as the RPM is increased above about 3,000. This low RPM / stalling comes and goes at will now. I will put my bike away when the problem occurs, and start it up the next day and it will run perfectly. I believed that the high RPM issue was brought on by slow, stop & go riding, when the engine got hot. But I have seen no connection to the riding conditions or temperature for the low RPM / stalling. In my opinion, the fuel mixture is leaning out when the low RPM condition occurs. I can sense a different response when I blip the throttle when this condition is happening that sure reminds me of a cold starting condition with a carbureted bike. Do you think there is any connection to the level of oil in the bike and this problem? Is it possible that excess oil somehow causes the EOT sensor to send a bad signal to the ECM? Also, my bike experienced poor low speed running from the day I bought it, which was finally cured by the TPS reset (I am extremely sensitive to how my bike runs, and the dealer said it was running fine, but I felt an immediate improvement after the TPS reset.) My bike has never shown an error code. Thank you so much for digging into this - I just don't have the time, or experience to diagnose electrical problems on my own.

(12-07-2017, 01:10 PM)Dave_imp Wrote: 1. Is IAC clean?

I haven't checked, but agree this is a very good idea. Plan to do this when I get around to checking my valve clearances.

2. Have connections to IAC and EOT been disconnected and reconnected to "wipe" the contacts to insure a good connection?

Haven't checked the IACV (will do), but have replaced the EOT sensor, and have had it disconnected and reconnected several times.

3. Plugs read?...burning clean?

Checked them once, the first time the problem surfaced, and they looked perfect.

4. Check for vacuum leak (from post 570: I had a failure to idle issue on my V7II, first experienced at 8,000 feet altitude, ~5 months in service and 6,000 miles. It required throttle to maintain idle, even after returning to 2,200 feet elevation. Cured by tightening band around rubber from single throttle body to intake manifold.) It was a quick restart when it died, also.

Haven't checked, but this is a good suggestion and will do this. Can I get at all four without having to disassembly a whole lot of things - like removing the gas tank?

5. Connections to all other sensors (O2, IAT, CKP) disconnected and reconnected to "wipe" the contacts to insure a good connection? On the XLForum, 07 up Sportsters have solved several issues by cleaning the CKP connection, which is down low and exposed to road grime.

Haven't done this, but will.

6. Sensor values compared to FSM values?

Not yet.

(12-08-2017, 05:18 AM)Lord Popgun_imp Wrote: Doc, I just got a DigiSync digital manometer to use to sync the throttle valves on my ST. I could use that to read vacuum, BUT, I fired up the Healtech software and it gives MAP reading in psig (or Kpa-user selectable)

I’ll have to fire up the CB and see what it reads. Its raining pretty good now so maybe later.