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+--- Thread: Oil Change Time! (/showthread.php?tid=4753)
Oil Change Time! - dsan1964_imp - 09-01-2020
(08-31-2020, 09:31 AM)Cormanus_imp Wrote: That's no good, dean. Glad you're OK. When Pterodactyl's K&N filter suffered the same fate, I had to go riding to the next town to find a replacement. All I could get was a HiFlow Premium, but that didn't have the spot-welded nut and was fine. Seems to me spot-welding a nut on the end of a filter is a design weakness.
At the time of Pterodactyl's mishap, I also had a K&N filter on the bike and replaced it immediately with a HiFlow Premium. It was fine.
I just had a hiflow go south yesterday I posted in mechanical and tech... bad deal the nut weld failed
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
RE: Oil Change Time! - Jambo_imp - 09-05-2020
(08-31-2020, 09:40 AM)SportsterDoc_imp Wrote: Jambo
It would facilitate response if you would number each chapter in your book / post.
Meanwhile you may want to research the effects of ash, phosphorous and sulfur content in 2T oil relating to the potential effect on motorcycle valve stems.. the CB 1100 has 16 of them.
Another research suggestion would be regarding the additives used in 4T oil specifically for high RPM motorcycle engines.
When I buy a vehicle I service it as though I were going to keep it forever.
Sportster Doc,
Sorry you don't like my lengthy posts. You should see my CL ads! The people that buy stuff from me like the fact that I provide detailed information and answer all their questions before they ask, while others personally attack me for it. For them, I suppose they prefer the one grainy picture and ad text that says "come and get it".
You (and others) made a lot of points and I responded to each one, and that took some thought and typing.
I said I don't need a bypass and explained why, in that the oil is never going to get dirty enough, nor will I ride at subzero temperatures to need one.
I responded about the oil company marketing about dangerous zinc and phosphors with the argument that those have been phased out of modern oils. They are using an old argument that no longer applies and is invalid to make their marketing pitch.
I asked why the car detergent additives don't cause buildup on car pistons and valvetrains, but the marketing claims those will occur on bikes. You did not respond to that.
My Honda car redline is "only" 6700 rpm, while the CB1100 redline is 8500, a 27% difference. If I put fresh Mobil-1 full synthetic (no energy conserving) car oil in by CB1100 every 3,000 miles, that additional 27% rev increase is going to cause the oil to breakdown in that low interval? Lets not even get into the fact that you will live at 3-5,000 rpms for the overwhelming majority of the life of the motor, whether you are in your car, your Guzzi, your Can Am, or your CB1100.
Your response is I need to do more research.
I think I am being practical and logical (yes, and frugal too), not emotional about it.
So I ask, what in the motorcycle oils (additives) cost the manufacturer 400% more that justifies the retail price 400% increase? What research have you done you can point me to that answers that question?
Perhaps we can agree to disagree, but I am asking you to resist just responding to that only, and actually provide real counterpoints or answers to my questions.
RE: Oil Change Time! - SportsterDoc - 09-05-2020
Please disregard my previous references to 2T (2 stroke oil), which should have read automotive oil.
1. 400% price differential?
[url=https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/power-rs-racing-4t-3140/more-powersport-30734/atv---motorcycle-chemicals-25144/motor-oil---motorcyclepowersports-19237/c762ea16fffc/castrol-power-rs-racing-4t-synthetic-full-synthetic-motorcycle-oil-10w-40-1-quart/synmc1040/2620092?q=castrol+power+one&pos=1]https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/pow...+one&pos=1
After run-in and with the onset of summer in Las Vegas, the final oil used for the CB was Castrol Power One 10W40, a pure synthetic 4T oil: $10.69 per quart or $9.99 on sale. Are you claiming that you purchase your preference for $2.67 per quart or $2.50 on sale?
2. Per your post 1, you stated your intention to spin people up with staunch opinions. Most forum members are probably laughing that I even responded. However, I would not want another CB owner to think that it is wise to follow your advise on using automotive oil. What empirical data have you cited to support so doing?
3. My Ryker is ~7,000 RPMs at 75 MPH. Due to the CVT, RPMs are NOT proportional to speed (107 MPH is 8200 RPMs)
4. Are you claiming that 4T oils are non-detergent?
5. Are you claiming that automotive oils have the same additives as 4T regarding survival at higher RPMs?
6. You may disregard ZDDP, as it has been replaced by other additives (at a higher level in 4T) to save catalytic converters.
7. Why would Bombadier Recreational Products/Can-Am recommend a 4T oil for a vehicle with a separate transmission and a dry clutch?
8. Are you confident that automotive oils have the same shear stability as 4T to properly lubricate the CB transmission gears? The Ryker trans was prepped with XPS 5W40, but 75W140 recommended for high temp operation, which is what I changed to at 1200 miles before summer weather.
RE: Oil Change Time! - Jambo_imp - 09-06-2020
(09-05-2020, 11:14 PM)SportsterDoc_imp Wrote: Please disregard my previous references to 2T (2 stroke oil), which should have read automotive oil.
1. 400% price differential?
https://www.oreillyauto.com/detail/b/pow...+one&pos=1
After run-in and with the onset of summer in Las Vegas, the final oil used for the CB was Castrol Power One 10W40, a pure synthetic 4T oil: $10.69 per quart or $9.99 on sale. Are you claiming that you purchase your preference for $2.67 per quart or $2.50 on sale?
2. Per your post 1, you stated your intention to spin people up with staunch opinions. Most forum members are probably laughing that I even responded. However, I would not want another CB owner to think that it is wise to follow your advise on using automotive oil. What empirical data have you cited to support so doing?
3. My Ryker is ~7,000 RPMs at 75 MPH. Due to the CVT, RPMs are NOT proportional to speed (107 MPH is 8200 RPMs)
4. Are you claiming that 4T oils are non-detergent?
5. Are you claiming that automotive oils have the same additives as 4T regarding survival at higher RPMs?
6. You may disregard ZDDP, as it has been replaced by other additives (at a higher level in 4T) to save catalytic converters.
7. Why would Bombadier Recreational Products/Can-Am recommend a 4T oil for a vehicle with a separate transmission and a dry clutch?
8. Are you confident that automotive oils have the same shear stability as 4T to properly lubricate the CB transmission gears? The Ryker trans was prepped with XPS 5W40, but 75W140 recommended for high temp operation, which is what I changed to at 1200 miles before summer weather.
1) Your right. 400% was compared to conventional oils, which probably would also work just fine. To be 100% factual, I can get the oil I use (full synthetic) for $4.75/q (including tax every day) to your $10.59 (including tax on sale), for only a 223% difference.
2) I wasn't trying to spin people up, but I thought it would. It did. I am not providing advice, I am providing opinion. Same as you. Yes, I am sure people are laughing at me as you insinuate. I am sure you are aware of what everyone on this board's opinions are about mine, so thanks. My empirical data, as was previously claimed, was that I have been doing this for decades, over 30 different bikes, and 20 cars. So, experience, which to me is the best empirical evidence there is. You are of course, free to dismiss.
3) Any synthetic oil, and dino juice for that matter, will work quite well at 8 or even 10,000 rpms. I prefer synthetic. It's slippier.
4) No. Some people have stated detergents are harmful. The link YOU provided said "Also, these oils [automotive] contain detergent additives, whose ash content is relatively high. If used in motorcycle engines, these could result in the formation of deposits on the piston crowns as well as the valve train. Because detergents are the main cause of pressure build up, this will cause perforation and burning on the components." So they claim automotive detergents are going to perf my piston crowns. Got it. Note the craftily chosen words "could result" and "relatively high". Vague enough purposefully to render meaningless. I was responding to that, and countered detergents don't cause problems, but the link you provided says detergents are the main cause. So, which side are you on? Detergents harmful or not? Maybe you are claiming the detergents in 4T are dramatically different. The manufacturers sure suggest that, with of course, zero evidence to back that up or carbon string data on their formulations. The reason they do this (to me) is if they actually gave you any useful information about it, then their claims can be disproven by research and testing. The way they do it, that is not possible.
5). No. But since neither of us can provide any evidence of any kind what additives are in car or motorcycle specific oil, there is no way to prove anything about that.
6) Point?
7) Well you would have to ask Bombadier about that. I don't work for them, but I found it interesting to note that it was an oddball weight/formulation that they are all to happy to offer you for only $102 for the oil, filter, o-rings and washer:
[url=https://can-am.brp.com/on-road/ca/en/shop/parts_maintenance/xps_maintenance_products/start_up_oil_change_/xps-4t-5w-40-synthetic-blend-oil-change-kit-for-rotax-991-se5-en.html]https://can-am.brp.com/on-road/ca/en/shop/parts_maintenance/xps_maintenance_products/start_up_oil_change_/xps-4t-5w-40-synthetic-blend-oil-change-kit-for-rotax-991-se5-en.html
The o-ring and washer being worth about $0.30.
But them, just like Honda always recommend that you use their oils specifically, and invariably at a high premium. Note, no manufacturer can deny your warranty claims if you do not use their brand of oil as long as you provide proof you do the service. No matter, I am not the original owner of my 2014 that would not be under warranty anyway for those two reasons (not original and date). Our own Honda manual calls for three things:
a) JASO T 903 Standard MA
b) SAE standard 10W-30
c) API classification SG or higher.
They also specifically state ...."exclude oils marked Energy Conserving, or Resource Conserving". Just like I said. The main provision of MA is that it was designed for motorcycles that have their clutches bathed in the same oil as the engine. Excluding the friction modifiers inherent in the Mobil-1 I use lacking Energy Conserving, or Resource Conserving in the API symbol accomplishes that. There is nothing magical about the weight designation. I would be quite comfortable using the Mobil-1 20W-50 (without the Energy Conserving, or Resource Conserving), and I have. It does fine in normal temperatures and I will not ride at 0F. The SG designation has long ago been surpassed by higher standards. The Mobil-1 I use says it meets SN and SM on the back of the container; the latest specifications.
8). Yes, basically. But no matter which oil you put in, car, motorcycle, or Back-to-the-Future time machine Delorean, the shear properties will degrade over time. More so it you live always at redline, which no one is ever going to do, and/or operate in high temperatures (which apparently you do). What I will say is, it doesn't matter. What little degradation there COULD be, will be replaced at such a low interval that fresh is replacing it anyway back to the stock initial weight upon introducing it into the motor/trans. I will also say, I might be atypical of the average CB1100 buyer (yes typical in that I am approaching 60, have disposable income, and an affinity to vintage and retro), but am a sportbike guy at the core. So, to me, the performance potential of any machine means a lot to me. I will hit the rev limiter on my CB more than most, in all likelihood, but I still won't live there. I will boldly proclaim that the degradation over 3000 miles will be insignificant as to be rendered irrelevant (opinion).
Since I change my oil at ridiculously low intervals, using the cheapest possible oil there is, say Walmart Supertech 10W40 for only $2.75 (including tax), would probably be just fine, and the bike would likely outlive me. But to me, for only $8 more, I can do the full synthetic, so I do. I wipe my a$$ with $8 (that's four wipes: one 5 and three 1's), but if I was going to pay $102 per change, did it on my intervals (3K), over the course of 30K miles, that would be over $1K. That I would scoff at. My way, with Mobil-1 full synthetic and my reusable oil filter, it would cost only $200 in comparison. That is a lot of service money if something went wrong (which it never has).
RE: Oil Change Time! - Lord Popgun - 09-06-2020
Cue the popcorn eating smiley...
RE: Oil Change Time! - SportsterDoc - 09-06-2020
To all: I apologize for contributing to the length of this thread, but hope popgun finished his popcorn.
Jambo: Enjoy your CB.
RE: Oil Change Time! - Houtman_imp - 09-06-2020
A lot to read but I will stick to Mobil 1 Synthetic 10/40 motor cycle oil which I used on my last 30 bikes and NEVER had any problems or issues. Also I keep using the OEM Honda oil filters .
PS I do not care much for popcorn !
RE: Oil Change Time! - Jambo_imp - 09-06-2020
(09-06-2020, 07:22 AM)SportsterDoc_imp Wrote: To all: I apologize for contributing to the length of this thread, but hope popgun finished his popcorn.You too. Smoke 'em peace pipe.
Jambo: Enjoy your CB.