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+--- Thread: ABS: Just Sayin' (Actually, Suzuki says...) (/showthread.php?tid=13542)
RE: ABS: Just Sayin' (Actually, Suzuki says...) - Ulvetanna_imp - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 05:20 AM)rotor_imp Wrote:(11-22-2016, 02:17 AM)Ulvetanna_imp Wrote:(11-21-2016, 05:19 PM)Cormanus_imp Wrote: I'm not sure this [url=http://motorbikewriter.com/abs-safe-officials-believe/]article in Motorbikewriter.com adds much to the discussion other than that, for some at least, the jury is still out in Australia.That's a great link. My two favorite comments:
Looks like ABS will be mandated in Europe from April 2017 for bikes 125cc and above.
ABS or not, proper braking technique will still reduce your stopping distance. Poor technique with ABS will result in a longer stop than good technique with or without ABS.
And until they get it right for unsealed surfaces, of which we have a lot in Oz, its dangerous, increasing stopping distances. My XT1200Z came with unswitchable ABS. After a few rides on gravel roads, and a few steepish fire trails I searched the net for a an off fix which fortunately wasn’t too hard.
I find all this hysteria about ABS being unsafe or not needed to be ridiculous.
ABS does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL until the rider fails and locks up the brakes in an emergency. At that point, it may help to save your life. If you are so truly gifted that you can brake on the limit and not panic when some clown pulls out right in front of you and your life is in danger, just turn the ABS off.
But everything works backwards in Australia, due to the Coriolis effect, no?
I just have to also post this comment; using the rear to get the back end to step and cause a direction change is, naturally, a technique learned in the dirt. I used that on the racetrack once, a guy crashed and fell off right in front of me and I had to kick the back end out a few times to skew my line, barely missed his feet as he was sliding along the pavement. I went onto the track and noted several skid marks from the rear tire after the fact.
Being the Old Grumpy Bastard that I am, I can still however remember the front brakes of many a bike, either totally lethal or barely rated as retarders. One really did learn to ride around the bike, on one such machine the front brakes if you could call them that, needed a gorilla like full hand squeeze, to just achieve a slight slowing, however the rear brake was brilliant, and one very quickly learnt to steer the machine out of trouble by locking up the rear, and taking option 2 escape point in a totally different direction and then get on the gas hard, saved my butt so, many times.
I don't thing that's correct.
ABS adds weight and cost to the new motorcycle, it is another complex automation system that ads many possible failure points to the braking system, it demands ongoing maintenance and it gives inexperienced riders a false sense of security.
It is a matter of cost vs. benefit ratio. I see too few benefits to justify the cost; someone else might well thing the benefits out weight the costs. The balance point between the cost and the benefit is a legitimate thing to discuss, but to claim there is no cost AT ALL is not a reasonable position.
I don't thing that's correct.
ABS adds weight and cost to the new motorcycle, it is another complex automation system that ads many possible failure points to the braking system, it demands ongoing maintenance and it gives inexperienced riders a false sense of security.
It is a matter of cost vs. benefit ratio. I see too few benefits to justify the cost; someone else might well thing the benefits out weight the costs. The balance point between the cost and the benefit is a legitimate thing to discuss, but to claim there is no cost AT ALL is not a reasonable position. Just to be clear, the comments in italics were copied and pasted from the website Cormanus linked in his post above.
But in general, with respect to the operation of ABS, the comment is wrong for some systems. The very good systems on some motorcycles, like [url=http://www.moto123.com/motorcycle-news/article,c-abs-hondas-electronic-braking-system.spy?artid=106055]Honda's C-ABS and [url=https://www.kawasaki-cp.khi.co.jp/technology/chassis/tech_kibs_e.html]Kawasaki's KIBS modulate pressure and select the ideal maximum, based on programming. They're still not as good on dry pavement as a very good rider but not like the "light switch" on most basic ABS systems.
But they do add more complexity; I've got to bleed my BMW's brakes and to do that I need a special tool that allows access to the ABS module, so it can be cycled to flush the old fluid. That tool was 350 bucks, but it'll come in handy for other things, so not a complete waste of dough.
Yes, I do turn off the ABS on the BMW unless it's raining or wet out.
RE: ABS: Just Sayin' (Actually, Suzuki says...) - the Ferret - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 05:20 AM)rotor_imp Wrote:(11-22-2016, 02:17 AM)Ulvetanna_imp Wrote:(11-21-2016, 05:19 PM)Cormanus_imp Wrote: I'm not sure this [url=http://motorbikewriter.com/abs-safe-officials-believe/]article in Motorbikewriter.com adds much to the discussion other than that, for some at least, the jury is still out in Australia.That's a great link. My two favorite comments:
Looks like ABS will be mandated in Europe from April 2017 for bikes 125cc and above.
ABS or not, proper braking technique will still reduce your stopping distance. Poor technique with ABS will result in a longer stop than good technique with or without ABS.
And until they get it right for unsealed surfaces, of which we have a lot in Oz, its dangerous, increasing stopping distances. My XT1200Z came with unswitchable ABS. After a few rides on gravel roads, and a few steepish fire trails I searched the net for a an off fix which fortunately wasn’t too hard.
I find all this hysteria about ABS being unsafe or not needed to be ridiculous.
ABS does ABSOLUTELY NOTHING AT ALL until the rider fails and locks up the brakes in an emergency. At that point, it may help to save your life. If you are so truly gifted that you can brake on the limit and not panic when some clown pulls out right in front of you and your life is in danger, just turn the ABS off.
But everything works backwards in Australia, due to the Coriolis effect, no?
I just have to also post this comment; using the rear to get the back end to step and cause a direction change is, naturally, a technique learned in the dirt. I used that on the racetrack once, a guy crashed and fell off right in front of me and I had to kick the back end out a few times to skew my line, barely missed his feet as he was sliding along the pavement. I went onto the track and noted several skid marks from the rear tire after the fact.
Being the Old Grumpy Bastard that I am, I can still however remember the front brakes of many a bike, either totally lethal or barely rated as retarders. One really did learn to ride around the bike, on one such machine the front brakes if you could call them that, needed a gorilla like full hand squeeze, to just achieve a slight slowing, however the rear brake was brilliant, and one very quickly learnt to steer the machine out of trouble by locking up the rear, and taking option 2 escape point in a totally different direction and then get on the gas hard, saved my butt so, many times.
I don't thing that's correct.
ABS adds weight and cost to the new motorcycle, it is another complex automation system that ads many possible failure points to the braking system, it demands ongoing maintenance and it gives inexperienced riders a false sense of security.
It is a matter of cost vs. benefit ratio. I see too few benefits to justify the cost; someone else might well thing the benefits out weight the costs. The balance point between the cost and the benefit is a legitimate thing to discuss, but to claim there is no cost AT ALL is not a reasonable position.
I don't thing that's correct.
ABS adds weight and cost to the new motorcycle, it is another complex automation system that ads many possible failure points to the braking system, it demands ongoing maintenance and it gives inexperienced riders a false sense of security.
It is a matter of cost vs. benefit ratio. I see too few benefits to justify the cost; someone else might well thing the benefits out weight the costs. The balance point between the cost and the benefit is a legitimate thing to discuss, but to claim there is no cost AT ALL is not a reasonable position.
Well, almost everything on a motorcycle these days is more expensive and more complex than on previous generations of motorcycles. Disc brakes systems for one, electric starters, modern electonics, fuel injection, micro processors, computers, liquid cooling systems, all of which are expensive and demand maintenance. (see thread about idle issues), but still we have infinitly better motorcycles because of all the advancements.
We all have insurance which costs a lot, but we happily pay it yearly "just in case". Helmets are not $49 anymore and good riding gear certainly costs more than blue jeans jackets, gym shoes and blue jeans. A trip to the hospital can get very expensive if only to be checked out, as does a ride in an abulance or heaven forbid a helicopter.
ABS is just another tool in the tool box to help protect you. It costs no more than a good full face helmet and armored jacket, weighs no more than a pair of boots and a full face helmet, and in truth is remarkably reliable to the point of never even thinking about it until after you needed it. That is probably a good thing and worthwhile for most.
I trust you noticed in the video I posted above, that EVERY rider, even the professional motorcycle road racer, stopped quicker with ABS. How can that possibly be a bad thing and not worthwhile?
RE: ABS: Just Sayin' (Actually, Suzuki says...) - LongRanger_imp - 11-22-2016
Is this the same argument we had when you could no longer buy a bike with a kick starter? When points and condensers gave way to electronic ignition? When carburetors were replaced with fuel injection? Ah, progress. As for me, I'll take ABS (and electric start and EI and EFI) every time.
RE: ABS: Just Sayin' (Actually, Suzuki says...) - caseyjones_imp - 11-22-2016
I know that "facts" and "experts" are no longer in fashion but here is what they have to say:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24884403
"facts" and "experts" - rotor - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 09:40 AM)caseyjones_imp Wrote: I know that "facts" and "experts" are no longer in fashion but here is what they have to say:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24884403
What unfortunately is in fashion, is to consider statistical interpretation of facts to be a fact in itself. It is not. I will not go into the whole post hoc fallacy here; it is a topic in itself, unfortunately much wider than motorcycling. And as for experts, ipse dixit comes to mind...
Seriously, I have no objection to the ability of those that believe ABS benefits outweigh the costs to buy a motorcycle with such device. None whatsoever. I do not hold such belief, so the question is this: should I be allowed to buy a motorcycle without them, or should the government force me otherwise? (Today the EU, tomorrow the US. Just like with helmets. Or seat-belts. Or million other things. Will this process of governments deciding what's good for us ever end?)
RE: ABS: Just Sayin' (Actually, Suzuki says...) - the Ferret - 11-22-2016
Nope, never. Bureaucrats feel it is their job to protect us from ourselves.
RE: ABS: Just Sayin' (Actually, Suzuki says...) - LongRanger_imp - 11-22-2016
The newest BMW bikes have electronic overrides which limit engine rpm until the bike reaches a certain mileage, for break-in purposes. Is that corporate overreach, or does it protect BMW's ability to reduce warranty claims? Regardless, it's probably something we'll see more of.
RE: ABS: Just Sayin' (Actually, Suzuki says...) - Ulvetanna_imp - 11-22-2016
(11-22-2016, 01:10 PM)LongRanger_imp Wrote: The newest BMW bikes have electronic overrides which limit engine rpm until the bike reaches a certain mileage, for break-in purposes. Is that corporate overreach, or does it protect BMW's ability to reduce warranty claims? Regardless, it's probably something we'll see more of.Yes, I mentioned this a little while ago and appreciate you confirming it. It protects the engine, no? I noticed after I picked up my F800GS after the first service that it was noticeably more responsive to the throttle. GREAT bike. That Rotax is a fantastic engine.
I'll be buying a new bike in the next few weeks, most likely a G 310R BMW, with ABS. My superbike does not have it, my track bike does not have it, and nearly all the time, it's disabled on my BMW. But for the average guy or gal on the street, who has never raced or ridden the dirt, you better believe it's a good idea.
ABS can be stripped from any bike quite easily, BTW. The lever on my GS is stupidly mushy but I am used to it now, and with 9 inches of suspension travel, that's not a bad thing anyway, I would certainly not want to have the strong initial bite I have with my regular streetbikes, CB1100 included.
RE: ABS: Just Sayin' (Actually, Suzuki says...) - Cormanus - 11-22-2016
The curious thing about the Coriolis effect is that it works both ways and what seems peculiar is a matter of perspective. But I digress.
In summary:
[li]rotor can't be doing with ABS—I think for reasons of cost-benefit;[/li] [li]Ulvetanna reckons a well trained rider can do it better, except in the wet at which time if he's on his F800GS he'll switch it back on;[/li] [li]the Ferret has posted evidence of one test that shows three riders of different skill levels all stopped more quickly with ABS in the wet;[/li] [li]caseyjones has offered a link to a study saying "... there is more than sufficient scientific-based evidence to support the implementation of ABS on all motorcycles, even light ones". It wasn't clear to me from the abstract exactly what circumstances the evidence allegedly showed would be mitigated. Presumably accidents or the severity of injury in accidents.[/li] [li]rotor questioned the wisdom of seeing statistical analysis of a fact as being a fact in itself; and[/li] [li]rotor then moved us to the far more profound question: "Will this process of governments deciding what's good for us ever end? "; and[/li] [li]the Ferret says no on the basis that "Bureaucrats feel it is their job to protect us from ourselves"
[/li] I remain of the view that, if I could have bought a CB1100 fitted with ABS, I would have. I'm not such a good rider that it is likely not to be of use to me in the sort of emergencies for which it is designed to provide assistance. I'm not persuaded I ever could be. I am also not quite stupid enough to believe that having ABS would make me either bulletproof or invulnerable to skidding. However, I'm prepared to suck up not having it for the sake of owning this bike.
I know I shouldn't go anywhere near rotor's and Ferret's final conversation, but I feel obliged to remind you both of something. While it is true that certain bureaucrats are unlikely to let up in their quest to save us all, they generally do it at the behest of their political masters who are looking for band aids to apply to serious wounds. The decision always rests with the politicians and we can all try to influence them as best we can. How successful that will be depends on a whole range of factors too many to contemplate here.
Finally, and as somewhat of a digression from ABS, but still on the subject of braking, the author of the on-line journal that gave us yesterday's discussion starter, also posted a piece on some lessons he learned from being off his bike for a bit. The article is [url=https://motorbikewriter.com/four-lessons-learnt-bike/]here and I draw your attention to the second lesson.
Here endeth the first.
RE: ABS: Just Sayin' (Actually, Suzuki says...) - Ulvetanna_imp - 11-23-2016
The only issue I have with ABS is that it is very, very needful to educate riders that it is not an "Automatic Braking System", one cannot crush the lever to the bar and just wait to stop -- not with MOST of the systems out there.
The bike tested in 2009 in the wet had Honda's C-ABS which does apply the maximum calculated pressure to the system, both front and rear, if one just grabs a handful and holds on. There are a few other bikes with such systems; I mentioned Kawasaki's KIBS which received very high marks in testing, and some other high-end bikes.
Most bikes with ABS just release brake pressure rather suddenly to avoid a skid-induced fall, they don't actually bring the bike to a stop as in the video above.
That's why every rider needs to understand what kind of ABS system his/her bike has and practice emergency braking and maneuvering to understand their personal limits and the limits of the system.
I just read that article.
Having been in just that situation with the recent hernia surgery, I can relate.
The instructions for post-surgery recovery stated "no strenuous activity for 4-6 weeks" so I figured it would be at least that long before I'd be riding again.
But I was back out on the CB1100 after ten days.
The key thing I was concerned with was having to suddenly brace the bike if I lost my footing, which could put some strain on the incision. So I was very careful about footing, but that's standard procedure for me because I've got a sub-30" inseam.
Where I depart from Mr. Hinchcliffe is in my absolute rule that no undue pain should be present. And during the entire course of my ride, there was really no pain to speak of, I was comfortable and was able to concentrate in a normal fashion, riding about 100 miles in a good deal of dense traffic and many twisting turns.
Mr. Hinchcliffe was premature and quite foolish in his actions. First off, his knee strength was compromised. Secondly, he stated he was in great pain. This can completely compromise the proper healing of the knee and also could have resulted in dropping the bike or in an accident due to lack of concentration because of the "fury" of his pain.
I am never impressed with men who try to be tough guys and talk about all the pain they can take and do stupid stuff to prove it, and then write an article bragging about it.
I took no medication for my pain, which is best because I could feel the wound healing, and I was not mentally impaired or at risk of withdrawal symptoms. I rested and did not go back onto the bike until I was completely confident I could focus 100 percent on the ride.
Anyway, the article does make mention of some very elementary riding skill pointers which might be kept in mind, avoiding the activation of the ABS system.