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+--- Thread: Swing arm bushing failure (/showthread.php?tid=4879)
RE: Swing arm bushing failure - egleaves_imp - 12-04-2019
(12-03-2019, 05:30 PM)max_imp Wrote: Same here Cormanus, something interesting going on here and thanks Egleaves and Popgun for the input, even when the bolt is over-tightened the threads would just strip and the nut would be hard to remove.
Since the bolt broke close to the nut it was still captive in the frame on both sides and the only thing preventing it from exiting to the left is the plastic cap that clips into the cavity where the head of the bolt resides, good thing that cap is held in tight eh?
Overall a good find from the dealership
Exactly what the tech said.
RE: Swing arm bushing failure - syncronizator_imp - 12-09-2019
Hi All,
I have been experiencing the loud chain for a long time.
I thought so at the time.
Yesterday and today I worked on the replacement of chain and sprockets.
After disassembly of used (32000km) sprockets and chain, I washed them in gasoline.
I noticed that the front sprocket is unnaturally worn on the invisible side (from the inside).
I began to wonder why this happened.
I checked the play on the swing arm.
The test showed about 2mm play at the end of the swing arm.
Now I understand that the noise was caused by the chain rubbing on the front sprocket.
Which was due to a lack of alignment front versus rear sprocket.
BTW, in my opinion adding a shim or turning a bolt will help for short time.
I did the same in my Sachs MadAss last year and after 2000 km of ride the shim rubbed off and the play came back.
In my country it was not possible to buy Sachs parts, therefore i had to do a swing arm bushing to eliminate the problem.
That's my experience.
RE: Swing arm bushing failure - max - 12-09-2019
Synchronizator could you post some pictures that show the wear so we can have something tangible?
Not doubting for a second your very in-depth findings and on which side ( left ( needle bearing ) or right ( two ball bearings ) is there movement that causes the 2mm sideways play in the swingarm, assuming the bushings are correctly held in place by the big m18 bolt, see the partsfish link earlier in the thread.
RE: Swing arm bushing failure - syncronizator_imp - 12-09-2019
Iside vs outside of front my sprocket:
Today i will remove swing arm bolt.
RE: Swing arm bushing failure - max - 12-10-2019
When you pull the bolt out put something like a long screwdriver or similar in behind it so it's easier to position the long bushing inside instead of it it falling down in the housing, it helped me.
RE: Swing arm bushing failure - syncronizator_imp - 12-10-2019
(12-10-2019, 06:02 AM)max_imp Wrote: When you pull the bolt out put something like a long screwdriver or similar in behind it so it's easier to position the long bushing inside instead of it it falling down in the housing, it helped me.
That's what I exactly did
My bolt has very slight usage, the defect is only 0.1 mm.
Turning the bolt does not change anything.
Regardless of whether the bolt is loose or not, my swing arm has a similar 2mm play.
I suspect, however, that the cause is the bearing on the sprocket side.
On the other side everything looks good. No play.
I will disassemble the swing arm on Saturday.
I think the sprocket side will be more likely to fail than the other side , because the working chain puts a heavy load on the bearing.
Other side only just only keeps the swing arm.
RE: Swing arm bushing failure - max - 12-10-2019
Thanks that is a great photo and i was hoping you would post it.
What i found in my video is similar to what you show here, the bolt is obviously stationary and so is the bushing ( which is the area the wearmark shows ) the needle bearing provides the pivot for the swingarm.
The bushing is meant to be clamped in place and held inmobile by the force of the bolt compressing the frame and holding all the bushings and bearing inner races together like in a vice.
Mistakenly i am calling this inner assembly "the spacers" but i mean all parts that are directly around the bolt and held captive by it, i don't have a proper name for it.
So if that were the case there would not be any wearmarks on the bolt because nothing directly around it moves, ( this is the smoking gun proof ) the movement is on the outer races of the bearings and the inner races remain inmobile as long as the compressing force of the bolt is enough to hold all these spacers etc. captive together as one lump.
I believe when the bolt is torqued up it exerts over 3 tonnes of compression on the frame and the spacers, if the frame resists too much then not enough force is left to compress the spacers and they roll around creating the wear marks you show.
If you can measure the gap between the frame and the bushings with a feeler gauge, i think in my case it was 0.7 mm.
So to transfer more pressure to the bushings i mostly closed that gap ( with the spacer ) and as a consequence had a lot more pressure left over to clamp the bushings as the design requires rather than pull the frame together, this eliminated any play instantly as shown in the video clip.
In my case the bolt was torqued up fine but all the pressure was used to compress the frame which was quite rigid in that place because of the construction rather than the bushings.
Made a mistake in an earlier post, to clarify; the two roller bearings on the brake side stop the swingarm from moving sideways and provide pivot support, the needle bearing just lands on it's bushing in an arbitrary place and only supports lengthwise , as well as pivot support.
Look forward to your findings and let me know if i missed something, thanks for posting all the details!
RE: Swing arm bushing failure - syncronizator_imp - 12-10-2019
(12-10-2019, 07:18 AM)max_imp Wrote: Thanks that is a great photo and i was hoping you would post it.
What i found in my video is similar to what you show here, the bolt is obviously stationary and so is the bushing ( which is the area the wearmark shows ) the needle bearing provides the pivot for the swingarm.
The bushing is meant to be clamped in place and held inmobile by the force of the bolt compressing the frame and holding all the bushings and bearing inner races together like in a vice.
Mistakenly i am calling this inner assembly "the spacers" but i mean all parts that are directly around the bolt and held captive by it, i don't have a proper name for it.
So if that were the case there would not be any wearmarks on the bolt because nothing directly around it moves, ( this is the smoking gun proof ) the movement is on the outer races of the bearings and the inner races remain inmobile as long as the compressing force of the bolt is enough to hold all these spacers etc. captive together as one lump.
I believe when the bolt is torqued up it exerts over 3 tonnes of compression on the frame and the spacers, if the frame resists too much then not enough force is left to compress the spacers and they roll around creating the wear marks you show.
If you can measure the gap between the frame and the bushings with a feeler gauge, i think in my case it was 0.7 mm.
So to transfer more pressure to the bushings i mostly closed that gap ( with the spacer ) and as a consequence had a lot more pressure left over to clamp the bushings as the design requires rather than pull the frame together, this eliminated any play instantly as shown in the video clip.
In my case the bolt was torqued up fine but all the pressure was used to compress the frame which was quite rigid in that place because of the construction rather than the bushings.
Made a mistake in an earlier post, to clarify; the two roller bearings on the brake side stop the swingarm from moving sideways and provide pivot support, the needle bearing just lands on it's bushing in an arbitrary place and only supports lengthwise , as well as pivot support.
Look forward to your findings and let me know if i missed something, thanks for posting all the details!
(12-10-2019, 07:18 AM)max_imp Wrote: Thanks that is a great photo and i was hoping you would post it.
What i found in my video is similar to what you show here, the bolt is obviously stationary and so is the bushing ( which is the area the wearmark shows ) the needle bearing provides the pivot for the swingarm.
The bushing is meant to be clamped in place and held inmobile by the force of the bolt compressing the frame and holding all the bushings and bearing inner races together like in a vice.
Mistakenly i am calling this inner assembly "the spacers" but i mean all parts that are directly around the bolt and held captive by it, i don't have a proper name for it.
So if that were the case there would not be any wearmarks on the bolt because nothing directly around it moves, ( this is the smoking gun proof ) the movement is on the outer races of the bearings and the inner races remain inmobile as long as the compressing force of the bolt is enough to hold all these spacers etc. captive together as one lump.
I believe when the bolt is torqued up it exerts over 3 tonnes of compression on the frame and the spacers, if the frame resists too much then not enough force is left to compress the spacers and they roll around creating the wear marks you show.
If you can measure the gap between the frame and the bushings with a feeler gauge, i think in my case it was 0.7 mm.
So to transfer more pressure to the bushings i mostly closed that gap ( with the spacer ) and as a consequence had a lot more pressure left over to clamp the bushings as the design requires rather than pull the frame together, this eliminated any play instantly as shown in the video clip.
In my case the bolt was torqued up fine but all the pressure was used to compress the frame which was quite rigid in that place because of the construction rather than the bushings.
Made a mistake in an earlier post, to clarify; the two roller bearings on the brake side stop the swingarm from moving sideways and provide pivot support, the needle bearing just lands on it's bushing in an arbitrary place and only supports lengthwise , as well as pivot support.
Look forward to your findings and let me know if i missed something, thanks for posting all the details!
I need to think about it
Now i undrstand the idea of "the spacer" implementation, but am not sure where the measurement should be taken. Tommorow after work I will buy the tool search and measure.
My todays swing arm play check:
https://youtu.be/Spw8ZUIaBog
Good Night
RE: Swing arm bushing failure - GoldOxide_imp - 12-10-2019
Great image captures of the issue syncronizator.
RE: Swing arm bushing failure - max - 12-10-2019
Good morning, thanks for the video, i assume the bolt was torqued up when the video was taken, it appears that the "collars"are still not compressed,feel free to click on Popgun's link and partsfish will open in a new window, have a look at parts; 6, 8 and 9, they all "thread" onto no 7 ( the bolt ) and need to be clamped tight in order to function as designed, i agree, it needs a bit of thought to figure out how it is supposed to function, i hope my video helps to understand how that happens despite the brief text.
http://cb1100forum.com/forum/showthread.php?tid=14993&pid=255014#pid255014
Even if there is a slight gap of less than 0.1 mm the collars are then free to move on the bolt and produce the play you demonstrate.
The shim ( it's actually a washer ) can be placed either between no6 and the frame ( brake side ) or between no9 ( on the sprocket side ) and the frame.
Mine is made from brass sheet because of the low oxidation properties and the hole was drilled first and has a close fit around the shaft, it was then cut out
to conform to the swingarm shaft but such that it could be manipulated in place without too much difficulty.
Normally there is no need to remove the swingarm but it may be interesting to do so, at the same time maybe check for sufficient grease in the bearings and
where the shock absorbers mount to the frame, they were dry on my bike and a little brown dust had formed, up to you.
The other issue is that water could have entered inside the swingarm through the gap, ignoring the dust ( water ) seals on either side of the bearing area,
i'm thinking the bearings themselves may have been affected depending how much grease has been used in assembly.
You are well on the way to solve this thing, good stuff
