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+--- Thread: tps evaluating for ii issues (/showthread.php?tid=5249)
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues - SportsterDoc - 02-10-2018
Dave
I prefer top tier fuel, but it is not available on many of my remote rides.
Only 87 octane used. First street bike to use regular in a l o n g time.
We can have a discussion on regular versus premium, later.
For now, basically, premium/high octane no longer has better cleaning additives than regular
and premium fuel may actually contain less energy per unit volume than regular. Premium does have the potential for producing more power, if timing can be advanced (more burn time) to take advantage of the higher octane.
If you had water, it goes to the bottom of the tank as H2O is more dense than gasoline; and if it will run, it should burn off. The one time it happened to daughter 3#, her 92 Nissan Sentra barely made it home (from west Flagstaff to east Flagstaff, AZ) and I pumped out several gallons of water/gasoline.
On my 2016 Moto Guzzi V7II, one time I fueled at an ARCO (top tier) near home and as I pulled out of the station, it stumbled once (first thought was water, but this is a well trafficked station). I gave it throttle and it then ran fine.
I will pay the price to fuel at a more trafficked station than one with the cheapest price...reasoning that there is less chance of water in the fuel.
Maybe you had a some water, but doubt that is/was the issue.
On the Sportster forum, my focus was primarily on electrical, secondary on carb issues. I mention this so that you will understand that I do not easily dismiss electrical issues.
My concern remains a vacuum loss issue and a stuck/sticking purge valve is now at the top of my list. I do not want to sidetrack Max's tests with the smaller vacuum hoses, but I am very curious to know if blocking the vacuum hose from the purge valve to the throttle body assembly makes a difference. This test should be done on a fully warmed up engine.
I have little info on Honda's M/C system on the CB1100, but what I have been able to research indicates generally that
a. engine must be at operating temp
b. engine must be faster than idle speed
...for the ECM to operate the evap purge valve
You can google "purge valve stuck open for symptoms".
Here are a couple links:
https://www.samarins.com/glossary/purge-valve.html
https://cartreatments.com/vapor-canister-purge-valve/
The main point is that if a purge valve is stuck open, at idle, the engine runs rough/low idle. A small vacuum leak will likely cause a high idle. This could be a crack in a hose or fitting...or maybe the purge valve almost closed.
The CB1100 is electrical. Electric open, spring close. What I do not know is if the purge solenoid is variable position, in other words, is it 100% open/closed or does it partially open depending on ECM regulated voltage? Either way, if it is open at idle, there is a problem.
The basics, as best as I understand, are:
1. Charcoal canister absorbs fumes from fuel tank vent
2. Canister has a one way check valve to allow fresh air to enter canister when fumes are sucked out.
3. When purge valve operates, manifold vacuum sucks fumes from canister
This has been a week of aggravating distractions. In the emails with Max, Peter and Popgun, I have not been providing much, if any, input. I think, but not sure, that Max's tests are to prove out proper IACV operation. It seems well worth doing, but my thinking is to first prove or dismiss purge valve issues.
Hope to be back to regular posting by the end of next week. Will be off the grid Mon-Wed, but can see emails on wife's smart phone** at our Arizona ranch. Not a strong enough signal to log onto the Sportster forum and I have not tried on this forum.
**I use a flip phone, which I intended to modify with a .357 when I retired, but wife forbids that.
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues - peterbaron - 02-10-2018
(02-10-2018, 03:38 AM)SportsterDoc_imp Wrote: Dave
I prefer top tier fuel, but it is not available on many of my remote rides.
Only 87 octane used. First street bike to use regular in a l o n g time.
We can have a discussion on regular versus premium, later.
For now, basically, premium/high octane no longer has better cleaning additives than regular
and premium fuel may actually contain less energy per unit volume than regular. Premium does have the potential for producing more power, if timing can be advanced (more burn time) to take advantage of the higher octane.
If you had water, it goes to the bottom of the tank as H2O is more dense than gasoline; and if it will run, it should burn off. The one time it happened to daughter 3#, her 92 Nissan Sentra barely made it home (from west Flagstaff to east Flagstaff, AZ) and I pumped out several gallons of water/gasoline.
On my 2016 Moto Guzzi V7II, one time I fueled at an ARCO (top tier) near home and as I pulled out of the station, it stumbled once (first thought was water, but this is a well trafficked station). I gave it throttle and it then ran fine.
I will pay the price to fuel at a more trafficked station than one with the cheapest price...reasoning that there is less chance of water in the fuel.
Maybe you had a some water, but doubt that is/was the issue.
On the Sportster forum, my focus was primarily on electrical, secondary on carb issues. I mention this so that you will understand that I do not easily dismiss electrical issues.
My concern remains a vacuum loss issue and a stuck/sticking purge valve is now at the top of my list. I do not want to sidetrack Max's tests with the smaller vacuum hoses, but I am very curious to know if blocking the vacuum hose from the purge valve to the throttle body assembly makes a difference. This test should be done on a fully warmed up engine.
I have little info on Honda's M/C system on the CB1100, but what I have been able to research indicates generally that
a. engine must be at operating temp
b. engine must be faster than idle speed
...for the ECM to operate the evap purge valve
You can google "purge valve stuck open for symptoms".
Here are a couple links:
https://www.samarins.com/glossary/purge-valve.html
https://cartreatments.com/vapor-canister-purge-valve/
The main point is that if a purge valve is stuck open, at idle, the engine runs rough/low idle. A small vacuum leak will likely cause a high idle. This could be a crack in a hose or fitting...or maybe the purge valve almost closed.
The CB1100 is electrical. Electric open, spring close. What I do not know is if the purge solenoid is variable position, in other words, is it 100% open/closed or does it partially open depending on ECM regulated voltage? Either way, if it is open at idle, there is a problem.
The basics, as best as I understand, are:
1. Charcoal canister absorbs fumes from fuel tank vent
2. Canister has a one way check valve to allow fresh air to enter canister when fumes are sucked out.
3. When purge valve operates, manifold vacuum sucks fumes from canister
This has been a week of aggravating distractions. In the emails with Max, Peter and Popgun, I have not been providing much, if any, input. I think, but not sure, that Max's tests are to prove out proper IACV operation. It seems well worth doing, but my thinking is to first prove or dismiss purge valve issues.
Hope to be back to regular posting by the end of next week. Will be off the grid Mon-Wed, but can see emails on wife's smart phone** at our Arizona ranch. Not a strong enough signal to log onto the Sportster forum and I have not tried on this forum.
**I use a flip phone, which I intended to modify with a .357 when I retired, but wife forbids that.
PCSV general info:
PCSV is a duty cycle solenoid, normally closed, operated by ECM ground. Depending on manufacture, it has 25-35 Ohms resistance at 20*C. It opens and closes about 70 times within a minute when idling or higher, within engine operating temperature, and should never be in stuck open position = problems and DTC will be set for 100%. Will not operate at WOTh.
pb
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues - max - 02-10-2018
Water in the fuel is a distinct possibility, it does not quite fit the fault m.o. but certainly worth draining.
my 2010 tank had at least one baffle about in the middle and the fuel gauge float on the left hand side, it may be hard to get to the lowest point in the tank where the water hides and when water gets in it is trapped under the fuel so it can not evaporate out but seems to produce rust anyway.
Interesting to see if you do find water or some other sediment.
max
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues - dave - 02-11-2018
Update: Took the CB for a short (10 mile) ride Saturday morning around town. Made one stop, where I turned the engine off, and stopped probably 12+ times at stop lights. Bike ran perfectly. I am not saying the gas was the root cause of the idle problem - yet, and will report back. I'm hoping more of you guys will reply with your comments concerning the gas potentially causing the low idle issue.
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues - Lord Popgun - 02-11-2018
Max and Sportster doc will answer this, but I can say I have seen it a lot on outboards at my friends shop (I work there after my real job in the Summer).
FYI, I’m doing servo valve tests today. But I’ll report the results to the crew and let them reply. 1st test complete Max!
I will say Dave, considering we don’t have engineering data, we are figuring out a lot about operation of our systems.
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues - dave - 02-11-2018
(02-11-2018, 02:06 AM)Lord Popgun_imp Wrote: Max and Sportster doc will answer this, but I can say I have seen it a lot on outboards at my friends shop (I work there after my real job in the Summer).Hi popgun. Thank you very much for all your support. Can you please be more specific concerning the outboards at your friend's shop? Are other people reporting that switching gasoline brands has caused similar problems in their bikes?
FYI, I’m doing servo valve tests today. But I’ll report the results to the crew and let them reply. 1st test complete Max!
I will say Dave, considering we don’t have engineering data, we are figuring out a lot about operation of our systems.
Thanks again popgun.
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues - peterbaron - 02-11-2018
PCSV general info:
PCSV is a duty cycle solenoid, normally closed, operated by ECM ground. Depending on manufacture, it has 25-35 Ohms resistance at 20*C. It opens and closes about 70 times within a minute when idling or higher, within engine operating temperature, and should never be in stuck open position = problems and DTC will be set for 100%. Will not operate at WOTh.
pb
Above advanced OBD II version caused some confusion among members.
Here is CB1100 version, which does not follow OBD II protocol::
PCSV is a duty cycle solenoid, normally closed, operated by ECM ground with 33 Ohms resistance at 20*C. It opens and closes multiple times within a minute when idling or higher, and should never be in stuck open position. Shop manual does not provide DTC for PCSV malfunctions
Sorry for this confusion = my bad
pb
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues - dave - 02-11-2018
Update: Low idle / stalling condition is back, so changing back to Chevron fuel did not resolve the problem. 3 miles from my house yesterday the low idle returned, and about 1 mile later the engine stalled as I pulled into a shopping center. My wife shot a video that shows the bike stalling once, and after restarting dropping to 600 - 700 RPM. The USB ports on my computer are not working so I cannot upload anything, but I just emailed a shortened video to doc - maybe he can upload it?
After the bike sat for 20 minutes I restarted it and it ran perfectly the next 20 miles - about 5 miles of in-town with stop lights, and then 15 miles of freeway.
I'll try removing the EVAP hoses next.
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues - Lord Popgun - 02-12-2018
Dave,
In the outboards I’ve seen with water in the fuel, and it happens to people ALL the time, one or more carbs don’t work and thus idle drops or engine stalls. My friend doesn’t do too many FI engines as he doesn’t have diagnostic tools computer testing or cleaning injectors.
If water is in the fuel for any length of time then it gunks up carbs or can mess up fuel injectors. I don’t know exactly how the injectors fail, he sends them to a dealer for that. That water, oil (2-stroke), fuel and alcohol really turns into a mess in an outboard carb. And on 4-stroke carbs can be bad enough to require replacement due to the extremely small ports they have. Even no water can mess them up if old fuel is left in them for a time.
RE: tps evaluating for ii issues - Houtman_imp - 02-12-2018
From early November onwards till the end of march I use the Blue Stabil (marine grade ) in my bikes.
I try to use the bikes at least once a month during the winter but you never know when the next ride is on a particular bike and try to play safe.