The CB1100 Community Forum

(03-28-2016, 12:52 PM)Rboe_imp Wrote: [ -> ]Looks like Harley's exceptional run is over; while some will buy for the image, they will have to back things up with a performing product now (in many respects they have improved their product, just need some more improvements).

It was fun while it lasted.

While normally I wouldn't know anything about how well Harley is doing, I just read in April's Cycle World editor's letter that Harley sold 170,688 new bikes in the US in 2015. With that, they had a 50% market share for bikes over 600cc. That's not bikes on the road, but only new bikes sold last year. That is absolutely astonishing, I think. For context, BMW had a record year and they sold 16,330 bikes total in the US.

(03-29-2016, 06:27 AM)The ferret_imp Wrote: [ -> ]"As much as some people may claim different, Harley's still the bike to own."

Hmmm... why would you say that?

I wonder the same thing, why would one say such a thing....

As much die hard fans HD has, as many opponents they have. Just or not.

Harley is the bike most all riders in my area aspire to. Personally, I've never understood the attraction, or most probably, I am the one who doesn't get it. Beauty is most definitely in the eye of the beholder and with a very few exceptions, I find Harley completely unappealing. The few I've test ridden only confirmed my opinion and the sound of that V-twin, annoying unless very heavily subdued. I am glad that HD is doing well and may their sales increase. Every brand has it's fans and detractors; all a matter of what floats your boat.

(03-29-2016, 06:42 AM)alphonsus_imp Wrote: [ -> ]

(03-28-2016, 12:52 PM)Rboe_imp Wrote: [ -> ]Looks like Harley's exceptional run is over; while some will buy for the image, they will have to back things up with a performing product now (in many respects they have improved their product, just need some more improvements).

It was fun while it lasted.

While normally I wouldn't know anything about how well Harley is doing, I just read in April's Cycle World editor's letter that Harley sold 170,688 new bikes in the US in 2015. With that, they had a 50% market share for bikes over 600cc. That's not bikes on the road, but only new bikes sold last year. That is absolutely astonishing, I think. For context, BMW had a record year and they sold 16,330 bikes total in the US.

While normally I wouldn't know anything about how well Harley is doing, I just read in April's Cycle World editor's letter that Harley sold 170,688 new bikes in the US in 2015. With that, they had a 50% market share for bikes over 600cc. That's not bikes on the road, but only new bikes sold last year. That is absolutely astonishing, I think. For context, BMW had a record year and they sold 16,330 bikes total in the US.
Harley has done well with its new(ear) bike sales. but the HD experience involves more than just bikes, it's t shirts, jackets, and misc branded items, i.e. tchotchkes

Basically, folks who wanted an new or updated bike have bought em in the last year or so, as Harley has pushed their latest models harder now than in recent times. Keep in mind that Harley has recently updated its motors (110ci iirc), but they are on about a 4 year update cycle, so their may be a bit of a wait between surges of sales. Sure it's great for sales right now, but long term.......Not to mention not everyone will upgrade for each version (it's more probable it would be every other revision or update)

In addition, If you factor in the failing prices of the used market, and where owning an older model doesn't have the cf (cool factor, i.e. You got have the most recent model or 1 version back to still be cool i.e. My 13 year old 88ci or 4 versions back is uncool- see previous post). It's going to have some possibly risky consequences

If I had to guess it's HD itself that is pushing the ownership of newer models. It's exactly what was posted above, it's look at all our bike sales, were awesome and still relevant. However, it's a risky proposition as I think older model owners may no longer feel as if they are part "in" crowd any more simply by just owning a HD. Not everyone can afford it, and I suspect some will be a bit annoyed as their used to be some status in maintiing an older model.. The big question, is will these folks feel alienated enough to no longer be walking billboards for HD merchandise.

If you think the HD bike sales are impressive, look up what the sales of branded mech gets em.. Last I read it significantly outpaced bike sales.. So while they are all happy about bike sales now, it might bite em in the ass down the road.

I get that you gotta sell the bikes to sell the Tshirts, but if your not careful with your market ......

One of the signs that a company like HD is worried and is trying to hedge their bets is push sales of pricey of "special" or "limited edition" models.. Anyone care to guess how many of these are coming out now....hmmmmm

(03-28-2016, 02:43 PM)gossman_imp Wrote: [ -> ]As much as some people may claim different, Harley's still the bike to own. Their biggest issue is they are pricing themselves out of many new buyers range, and today's new riders aren't into buying sub liter rides. They need to stabilize the price even with the improving economy.

What I am saying is,

What if you don't want a V Twin? (my favorite engine is the liter inline 4)

Or you prefer a parallel twin?

What if you want a sport touring bike?

Or a sport bike?

Or anything that isn't a feet forward cruiser?

What if you like the wail of a Triple?

What if you want a single for riding on/off road?

What if you prefer liquid cooling or shaft drive?

To me HD's problem is it is not diversified enough. One engine layout, basically one style of bike... Here's what we make, an air cooled, V twin, feet forward forward cruiser ... Take it or leave it. They won't even put in counter balancers to smooth out their engine, rather they mount the engines in rubber in the frame to try and isolate the customer, and just go ahead and let them shake . Now I know they have fairing and bagged tourers, but truthfully they are not far from their basic design.. Just a feer forward air cooled V twin cruiser with floor boards, bags, trunk and fairing. Don't get me wrong, what Harley does, it does well, very well as a matter of fact, but they will never get me into the showroom with the line up they currently have. Even stodgy old BMW diversified from air cooled shaft drive opposed twins for pete's sake. I don't think you can even buy a new strictly air cooled opposed twin from BMW anymore, can you?

My belief is Harley may be the bike to own to you care about what other people think .... but certainly not because it is a superior product. If Harley were brand new in the market, and no one had ever seen one before, and cutomers were just going on the merits of the machine and the price they were asking for them, I'd think they'd have quite a difficult time making it in the market place.

Gossman wrote: As much as some people may claim different, Harley's still the bike to own.

I won't try to decipher what Gossman means by this but I agree with him and here's why. The people have voted. By sheer numbers of new unit sales per year combined with the raw number of Harley rolling stock on the road 'it appears' that Harleys are still the bike to own. They win the popularity contest hands down for WHATEVER reason.

Some good points were made related to why Harley sales have dropped off recently but for those who appear to be writing Harley off as being headed for some imminent Chapter 11 court date in the not-to-distant future, you may be a bit premature. A month ago I was in San Francisco standing in front of a Harley store (no bikes, only clothing and some accessories) while my wife bought a t-shirt and some gloves for our youngest daughter (who owns an Iron 883). A tour bus pulled up and let off about 40 people on the other side of the street. If I remember right 3 young Asian women literally sprinted across the street to the store to beat the rush. They were followed by about 5-6 more. All women. When everyone was in the store I went back in to see how my wife was getting along. Some of the gals already had shirts hanging off their forearms and were excited to be shopping. Here's my point. These women were from Asia, and spoke no English in the store and were stoked to be buying Harley branded clothing. I wonder when the last time was a bus load of American tourists pulled up in front of a Honda shop in Japan and rushed the dealer for whatever they could get.

Harley does indeed sell a 'lifestyle', and it sells it well beyond our shores. If that little incident is any indication they will do just fine. It may require product line revision and possibly a refocus of it's primary shrinking demographic (aging white male, which we seem to be somewhat fixated with here) to possibly the ever increasing Asian market and beyond. Don't underestimate the apparently deeply rooted psychological need of some (maybe many) of us (regardless of our background) to belong to a group of 30-40 air cooled V-Twin riders dressed to look like the crew of the Black Pearl.

My EVO is on its way to Japan.

(03-30-2016, 09:54 AM)Frulk_imp Wrote: [ -> ]Gossman wrote: As much as some people may claim different, Harley's still the bike to own.

I won't try to decipher what Gossman means by this but I agree with him and here's why. The people have voted. By sheer numbers of new unit sales per year combined with the raw number of Harley rolling stock on the road 'it appears' that Harleys are still the bike to own. They win the popularity contest hands down for WHATEVER reason.

Some good points were made related to why Harley sales have dropped off recently but for those who appear to be writing Harley off as being headed for some imminent Chapter 11 court date in the not-to-distant future, you may be a bit premature. A month ago I was in San Francisco standing in front of a Harley store (no bikes, only clothing and some accessories) while my wife bought a t-shirt and some gloves for our youngest daughter (who owns an Iron 883). A tour bus pulled up and let off about 40 people on the other side of the street. If I remember right 3 young Asian women literally sprinted across the street to the store to beat the rush. They were followed by about 5-6 more. All women. When everyone was in the store I went back in to see how my wife was getting along. Some of the gals already had shirts hanging off their forearms and were excited to be shopping. Here's my point. These women were from Asia, and spoke no English in the store and were stoked to be buying Harley branded clothing. I wonder when the last time was a bus load of American tourists pulled up in front of a Honda shop in Japan and rushed the dealer for whatever they could get.

Harley does indeed sell a 'lifestyle', and it sells it well beyond our shores. If that little incident is any indication they will do just fine. It may require product line revision and possibly a refocus of it's primary shrinking demographic (aging white male, which we seem to be somewhat fixated with here) to possibly the ever increasing Asian market and beyond. Don't underestimate the apparently deeply rooted psychological need of some (maybe many) of us (regardless of our background) to belong to a group of 30-40 air cooled V-Twin riders dressed to look like the crew of the Black Pearl.

I think this is the key. They are probably miles and away the world's best experiential marketers. Their bikes don't really trade on technical or quality merits, but rather on allowing buyers to channel the brand's ethos and essentially buy membership, both figuratively and literally, into a club. Their merchandise further extends this, allowing others to essentially do the same thing. It's about buying an image as much, or if not more, than anything. Building bikes then almost becomes just a necessity, in order to keep the marketing machine going and sell more shirts, jackets, helmets, branded single-use navigation screen wipes (really), etc...

Ferrari has basically done the same thing in the car world -- and I belive if you look at their financial statements they actually make more from trademark licensing and apparel/accessories than from vehicle sales. I wouldn't be surprised if Harley was close, or even there already.

Not meant as a burn, as I've met tons of Harley owners who were awesome people and just loved to ride, without any regard to image, but looking at general trends...

Ps. LOL at your Black Pearl comment.

I've owned one HD...a 2004 1200C...

Visceral...I didn't know what that work meant until owning this bike. Bought it new and had it for 9 years.

And then one day I got into an accident. With the insurance money in hand, I had a decision to make...get it fixed, fix it myself and save some $$, or sell it wrecked and pocket the insurance money. Bike had 33k miles on it, ran like a dream, always had people asking me about it, was always asked at the dealership when I was going to upgrade. My reply was always the same...I've already got the best bike you guys make. It was simply, for me, the bestest lookin' bike out there at the time. I own one HD apparel item: the HD t-shirt given to me when I bought the bike new.

Never thought I would buy a Honda...but then I saw the CB1100...ergonomically, could be a little better for me, but visually...it's the bestest lookin' bike there is, the new Triumph Street Twin and the MG V7 are runner-ups. So if the look doesn't move me, I find it difficult to get too excited about the bike.

Nothin' wrong with that '04 Sportster. Very fun bike. Skulls and bandanas...you can have 'em.

So I sold it wrecked, pocketed the insurance money and bought a 17' ski boat. Kids and I have had more fun than I could imagine. : ) oh...and yes...we ski and wakeboard on that river in the top photo...the Columbia.

Seen the CB500x adventure bike?
Giant loop website has info on making the CB500 into a serviceable adventure bike, video of a cross Australia tour. Interesting.